Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[xxDevlinxx]

Originally Posted by miceelf88

Is damage to equipment in most other games EVER permanent?

There are several games in which there is permanent equipment damage.

Most games that don't have permanent damage bind all magical gear on equip. We're giving you the choice whether you want to bind (and avoid all permanent damage) or not.

WoW is our main competitor and they dont bind items so why are we??

No Permanent Damage either

[Yaga_Nub]

I'm going to be examining ways to repair permanent damage on bound objects as well in the future. At the moment I don't have the tech needed to do that, but it's on my M7 wish list.

I can hear a very happy dwarven barbarian friend of mine rejoicing from 50 miles away!

[Archetype]

(This is from a casual, non-raiding player, semi-guild involved, wanting to just log on an play, oh and *not* usually a DDO Forum presence...heh...)

*First off: my DDO subscription $s are *not* guaranteed and these changes make me reconsider my (limited) game time committment to DDO (which is my first, and only, MMO). If I am not having fun anymore..regretfully it will be "buh-bye Turbine" (probably to online 4th Ed D&D, since I am in DDO for the D&D experience more than the MMO experience..and heh I can play a freakin' DRUID in 4th Ed. early next year instead of maybe 2009 in DDO, eh? ).

*I work nights, and thus am usually only able to play after midnight CST, which makes my DDO prime time offset from most others (except those wacky drunk Australians @ 3 a.m....man are they fun!). So as much as I love my guild, I end up PUGgin it most often. PUG play will become most unattractive in this new system, and thus most of my game time will be a "Negative Game Experience" thus resulting in DDO-frustration and thus lack of desire to play (and more encouragement to move on to other entertainment options...)

Case in point: a PUG last night was doing badly, but my lowbie Ranger CMW wand-whipped them back from death time and again (heh had a cleric who *never* ran out of sp...as he *never* healed even when asked...). Cost to me: several CMW wands plat expediture @ 500 plat/wand. With the new system, if you add MORE "repair plat" costs on top of this, why would I "stick it out" with a mediocre PUG in order to complete a quest? LOTSA "PUG-dropping" will ensue in DDO, making it harder to get together, then keep together a decent group from now on... I usually don't mind helping along newbies and donating lowbie items I have collected (UA items, lesser Devotion rings, +1 weapons to those who only have masterwork, etc) but these "noob-luvin'" practises will have to stop, as I will need all my cash to just keep up on repairs from now on.

*"Time, time, time, see what's become of me....as I look around at my possibilities...
So you ask, why not just encourage better play, coach the noobs on what they are doing wrong and foster better party play? I simply do not have the time to "instruct and teach" every new PUG i jump into on how to play correctly. Heh...it's a PUG man! Many noobs do not WANT to listen. Or are just not skilled enough in the game to master their party roles as needed. And with the "item death damage" implementation, BAD PUGs = HIGHER PLAT COST JUST TO RUN ANY QUEST. I should therefore eventually give up on PUGs and stick to my Guild, as most have mentioned will become their gaming preference as well. Oh wait! My guild is mostly asleep when my DDO Prime Time comes around...well...guess I will be playing less from now on...which does *NOT* allow for all the new "Grinding Play Time" that DDO is trending towards, eh? (Grinding to get new Dragonshard Fragments, Dragon Scales, Relics, loot-searches for assembling "basic adventuring gear" since "handing down" items to lowbies is being discouraged via binding, etc ad nauseum). Oh, I should just find a new guild that is on when I am, or only stick to my Friends list, "reliable" players when I notice they are on? Ummm...talk about KILLING the sense of welcome and wonder that DDO used to provide to a new player. NO ONE will want to include noobs in a PUG, as it most likely will result in party deaths, and thus Item Damage/plat loss. Turbine, you are choking off the influx of new players with this...do you NOT want DDO to make any $?

*"TWINKING" IS A NECESSARY AND EXPECTED ACTIVITY FOR THE CASUAL PLAYERBASE

We do NOT have the time to grind decent items for ALL of our character builds over and over. It is simply not feasable for the limited time we have to play. Gods forbid we even get to pull any Raid loot at all with the new low-drop-rates (no, I will probably NEVER do a raid "20 times." Ever. On any toon.). It is why we enjoy the Auction House. Since I CAN'T run my characters over and over to try and pull a Planar Gird I do enjoy the option of purchasing one off the AH when I can afford it. Sometimes I spend hours in the mornings just shopping for good deals, posting items for sale I don't need on any of my builds, and generally getting my "E-bay Fix" (without having to spend any real-world green...heh..sweet). NEWSFLASH: this is part of the "fun" of playing a MMO for me. If the AH dries up...well, less DDO time in my future, more likelyhood that I will drop my DDO time-investment soon.

"Hand-me-downs" are also vital to the casual player, and removing them will leech a lot of the fun out of the game for my kind of player. In the PUG mentioned above, I played a "twinked" lowbie Rogue1/Ranger3, with a +1 flaming longbow and +2 mithral chain, dual-weilding Sickles of Syphilys , all of which was mailed from my mid-levels when they no longer needed them. These are items that I would have had to "grind" to get at that level, and by the time I ground myself up enough to get them...I would be higher level and no longer need them, eh? If we have to bind everything to keep it, then destroy or vendor-dump said bound items instead of having the option to mail to new, different builds...well...once again THE FUN IS GONE. Also to note: if my Ranger had NOT been "twinked" with a few good items, and been able to blow a few CMW wands because my higher level toons had mailed him a few thousand plat to "get by on"...then guess what? Our PUG would have party-wiped, I probably would have dropped group, been unable to find another group at 3am, logged off for the night and been discouraged from logging on the next day to face such a situation again and again. Can you say "Negative Gaming Experience?"

Uh, Turbine? Do you realize that you are virtually guaranteeing that I HAVE to go buy plat now?
I would never have considered it before, but these changes almost make it mandatory that I have a ton of plat now to support the gaming style that I have time for. I have never bought plat, and even have harrassed the players whom I knew were doing it, but now I will have to look at it differently. After all, the AH prices will now SKYROCKET, and only those with inflated shopping budget cash will be able to afford to shop there (remember, shopping in the AH is one of my favorite DDO activities..you are making DDO less enjoyable to me...). Yes, I hear the obvious answer: Dude, why don't you just play more and grind your own items? A friendly reminder: my type of player doesn't have the time committment to do this. I am not looking foreward to being a "part of the problem" with plat sellers, but hey, Turbine is now forcing me to go this route if I want to keep playing DDO. (So the new changes do not really help solve any of the DDO Economy problems, just make them worse...)

*In summary:

• Less "fun time"
• More "grinding time"
• = less DDO Luvin'

I realize that these opinions probably do not jibe with where most of you regular DDO Forum posters are coming from, so this is mostly intended as a communication to any Turbine staff watching. If implemented as stated, my future with DDO will, sadly, be short. Please consider some of the points from our "Casual Player" perspectives, eh?

Thanks, and thank-you for an excellent game so far. Don't make us leave it, please.

[ccheath776]

That it was too harsh. Essentially "I lost hours of my time because I got killed".

I can't say it better than ccheath776 did: "The concern was newer players trying to level up were finding themselves taking one step forward and 3 steps back."


At low levels, the proposed death penalties are very light. You'll have to drown yourself quite a few times to get appreciable item wear at levels 2-3.


I'm going to be examining ways to repair permanent damage on bound objects as well in the future. At the moment I don't have the tech needed to do that, but it's on my M7 wish list.

My m7 wish list - Crafting and monks.

That would be nice to have a way to repair perm damage, im sure that will be made available inthe future. Its the reason I have kept my now unrepairable Retribution in the bank. I know someday I can repair it.
Maybe have the person that repairs the damage be an Artificer NPC in the market place. Hey if we cant have them to play we can at least have them as an NPC.

[aldan]

Run that Abbott with those damage numbers? That is crazy! I dont have much gear so I like the ability to send it to another toon but at level 14, my gear will take 10% damage upon death is rediculous, you are forcing us to bind our items.

[Laith]

Originally Posted by miceelf88

WoW is our main competitor and they dont bind items so why are we??

No Permanent Damage either

every worthwhile item in WoW is Bind on Equip.

the good ones are Bind on Aquire.

That's EXACTLY why they don't have permanent damage, and it's the SAME reason we don't when we voluntarily bind our items. Since our best items bind on aquire, we'll have just about the same system as they do... plus options to not bind everything we use.

Get your facts straight.

[totmacher]

I'm starting to think once you cap, you should take half permanent damage (10 -> 5% for 11+). But you gotta earn it. Hear me out for a second.

There are some major differences between capped XP play and 1 - 14.3 play (normal levelling). You have a different series of objectives now instead of XP. Favor, exploration, looting, raids, helping out guildies, etc etc. Here is what I think to build a case:

1) Your Toons Don't Change But Items Do - Your toons, when levelling up, acquire better gear, change gear around and for the majority, will take damage to this gear. But since it will change, that is fine. However when you're on a leveling plateau items don't change (as much) because your level doesn't change either. Your items are static for the most part which leads to the next point...

2) When You Do Change Gear At Cap - When you change gear and you're capped, it most likely because you got something which is better and/or in a better slot. So what happens to the old items that were in those slots? Since you haven't been leveling much, they haven't changed. With the new system, they're gonna be mostly red or bound. But instead of mostly red, why not at least half of that? Shouldn't we allowed to be able to trade this gear away, especially if we have earned capped or give it to other toons In Your account. Capping a toon encourages more levelling, getting more items. Saging those items is a important part of it. That +6 con necklace that you don't need anymore cause you just got the Mod 6 raid +8 con necklace is now useless on your toon if it was bound. If you left it non-bound, it would've taken a lot more damage. But why not be able to sage it down to our new bard, with at least half the durability still intact?

3) The Ability to Earn Something For Capping A Toon - Why not? You have reached the 14.4 level cap, shouldn't you be able to protect your items better than someone at level 11? Your main objective, XP, has totally changed. Your items, for the most part, remain static, unchanged. There is no reason to modify them anymore, other than for the situation.

As an addendum, maybe a mitigation system, like the old "you earn action points at your capped level" enhancement system pre-mod4. Where you have to go through your 14.4 bar to reduce your item deterioration penalty by -0.25%? This would give people a reason to still attain experience at cap and a justifiable reward to do some stuff they haven't yet. Some would view it as grinding but I think it would be legitimate. If you say, ran through your 14.4 bar 8 times, you would get -2%. This would cap at a total minus of 5%. (5% deterioration total)

Anyway, just food for thought. Enjoy all.

totmacher

[MysticTheurge]

...and heh I can play a freakin' DRUID in 4th Ed. early next year instead of maybe 2009 in DDO, eh?

Oh yeah? Are you sure about that?

[kengsxr]

Ok, thanks to Eb for the response.
and what it appears to me is that the new/lowbies were complaining, so, we help them and HURT the high level toons. This, it seems to me, is not a balanced response to the "problem".

[Dariun]

Ok, thanks to Eb for the response.
and what it appears to me is that the new/lowbies were complaining, so, we help them and HURT the high level toons. This, it seems to me, is not a balanced response to the "problem".

Actually, I think there were 2 concerns:

1. Low/mid level players were complaining about XP debt (myself included)
2. High level players felt the death penalty was ignorable and developed tactics which involved intentional dying or at least reckless disregard for their own well being

So I think the plan was to make something that hurt low/mid level players less and higher level players more so that in the end they would find it equally annoying.

I think the 10% damage to all items is probably too much.

Assuming my computer can take it (hard drive filling up...), I'll download Risia and join in the testing. I'm curious to see the difference between "normal wear-and-tear" and "death damage".

I also want to see what happens to a +5 mithril chain shirt with a few points of permanent damage when I die 10 times...

[Serpent]

So Eladrin the whole point of binding items is to remove them from use in the game by multiple characters? Is this right or wrong. please explain if I am wrong.

All the evidence points to the damage upon death and the ability to bind items and then bounded items not taking damage. So is this to remove the proliferation of items that are available in game? If so just say that.

[Alshatar]

I myself am not too concerned with the Death penalty but if you die 10 times in a quest (invaders) your stuff if perma-broken. What's the point in binding items.. when I get a new peice of something (maybe a +6 con belt) I have to rework toons to fit it in with their other stuff. If stuff is bound I can't do that and that's ********. If Turbine decides to mess up skills like they do a lot you're like "Oh reroll" and work through the grind again and WHAM look, all that stuff you have is bound!@!!! I have some nice stuff, like every high level player like disruptors and such, binding it would make it so I HAD to keep the toon and not roll lets say "a new fighter" .. This blows. I am a proud officer of a large guild on Thelanis and none of us are happy with this. Why not take our cash we pay every month and do something good with the game and look to see what level 20 brings before messing something up. I see that developers are reading this forum - Why not pay the midnight guys who answer our "help" cry so we don't have to sit in a quest for 45 minutes while they get to us, or FIX STORM CLEAVE - it bugs out EVERY time I'm in it. There - that's my 2 copper festivus coins worth.

[Ciaran]

That it was too harsh. Essentially "I lost hours of my time because I got killed".

I can't say it better than ccheath776 did: "The concern was newer players trying to level up were finding themselves taking one step forward and 3 steps back."

Maybe I'm just daft, but I don't understand how somebody could say this legitimately. I honestly can't remember ever noticing that XP debt was holding me back from leveling...probably because it wasn't, especially not at lower levels. Mid level is somewhat of a slog, but so what? Seriously, I can't remember XP debt ever holding me back from leveling or wasting an appreciable amount of my time.

As for the 10% damage per death to equipment, I really think that needs to be adjusted. This blanket approach is a little off-putting. I mean, red and purple names were given blanket immunities to make them tougher and now our equipped gear is getting blanket damaged applied to it on death to make the death penalty sting more. I just don't think it's a good idea to target our items this way.

Heck, if you quartered or halved the XP debt and bestowed the negative levels/will save penalty that'd make the death plenty sting plenty.

Or, what about capping the damage percentage? We all have bad nights where we die multiple times in a quest, I'd hate to lose items that I didn't bind because I'd like to have that item to pass down to another character, to a guildie or to a reroll (let's face it, the way things are introduced into the game without a full respec option people reroll characters a good bit).

On that subject, can somebody explain to me exactly why twinking is bad for the game?

[MysticTheurge]

So Eladrin the whole point of binding items is to remove them from use in the game by multiple characters? Is this right or wrong. please explain if I am wrong.

All the evidence points to the damage upon death and the ability to bind items and then bounded items not taking damage. So is this to remove the proliferation of items that are available in game? If so just say that.

You have options.

You have the choice of:

A) A system where you can freely pass items around to other characters, yours or someone else's, but where they take permanent damage over time.

B) A system where items take no permanent damage, but you cannot pass them around to other characters.

Feel free to choose whichever you prefer.

[DrAwkward]

The feedback I'm receiving here seems to indicate that people are dying a lot more than the data indicates, or think they're dying a lot more than they really are.

* If there are mutiple deaths in a quest, it's probably the same character.
* While the average may be low, the data is not uniform; it's in clusters. Either no deaths, or many deaths.
* The more damage on an item, the more likely it will take permanent damage.

Thus I think its more likely to generate permanent damage than an "Average" would indicate. We have a wizard in our group who may as well run around naked.

* These changes are obviously encouraging us to bind our equipment.
* You have a tendancy to make changes to the game, or give favor rewards, that encourage players to re-roll characters.
* Since we can't pass down all this bound stuff to our "next of kin", we have to loot it or buy it from the Auction House.
* Everyone else is also binding thier very good equipment.

It seems to me, the only ones left with good loot to sell would be the platfarmers. And they know they can ask for even more plat (or dollars) since these items are even less available.

Finally, I'd like to bring up chained quests. It already breaks the mood to have to recall out between chapters of STK or Tangleroot to sell. Repairing should be something you do while selling stuff, because you are there already. Repairing is a chore. Having to make your party wait because you have to run off and do an in-game chore is unacceptable.

[Ciaran]

I'm starting to think once you cap, you should take half permanent damage (10 -> 5% for 11+). But you gotta earn it. Hear me out for a second.

There are some major differences between capped XP play and 1 - 14.3 play (normal levelling). You have a different series of objectives now instead of XP. Favor, exploration, looting, raids, helping out guildies, etc etc. Here is what I think to build a case:

1) Your Toons Don't Change But Items Do - Your toons, when levelling up, acquire better gear, change gear around and for the majority, will take damage to this gear. But since it will change, that is fine. However when you're on a leveling plateau items don't change (as much) because your level doesn't change either. Your items are static for the most part which leads to the next point...

2) When You Do Change Gear At Cap - When you change gear and you're capped, it most likely because you got something which is better and/or in a better slot. So what happens to the old items that were in those slots? Since you haven't been leveling much, they haven't changed. With the new system, they're gonna be mostly red or bound. But instead of mostly red, why not at least half of that? Shouldn't we allowed to be able to trade this gear away, especially if we have earned capped or give it to other toons In Your account. Capping a toon encourages more levelling, getting more items. Saging those items is a important part of it. That +6 con necklace that you don't need anymore cause you just got the Mod 6 raid +8 con necklace is now useless on your toon if it was bound. If you left it non-bound, it would've taken a lot more damage. But why not be able to sage it down to our new bard, with at least half the durability still intact?

3) The Ability to Earn Something For Capping A Toon - Why not? You have reached the 14.4 level cap, shouldn't you be able to protect your items better than someone at level 11? Your main objective, XP, has totally changed. Your items, for the most part, remain static, unchanged. There is no reason to modify them anymore, other than for the situation.

As an addendum, maybe a mitigation system, like the old "you earn action points at your capped level" enhancement system pre-mod4. Where you have to go through your 14.4 bar to reduce your item deterioration penalty by -0.25%? This would give people a reason to still attain experience at cap and a justifiable reward to do some stuff they haven't yet. Some would view it as grinding but I think it would be legitimate. If you say, ran through your 14.4 bar 8 times, you would get -2%. This would cap at a total minus of 5%. (5% deterioration total)

Anyway, just food for thought. Enjoy all.

totmacher

You bring up an excellent point about gear staying static and getting used more, especially since when the level cap is increased it is by 2's and we stick at that cap for several months. There's some gear I can see being useful for a very long time, other gear only useful for those at that level. I really dislike the idea that if I ever want to trade, gift or twink that gear I won't be able to do so.

[MrSmack]

I was extremely excited about mod 6 until I read this thread

mark one more person down as not happy about the damage changes

[Serpent]

You have options.

You have the choice of:

A) A system where you can freely pass items around to other characters, yours or someone else's, but where they take permanent damage over time.

B) A system where items take no permanent damage, but you cannot pass them around to other characters.

Feel free to choose whichever you prefer.

Thank you MT but I was looking for a response from El concerning my question of why? I know what the options break down to be.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

DDO is hardly WOW even with the new mechanic. You will not have to run around for you body when you die. Just go to a res shrine like before.
Nothings changed for the most part, just a neg level mechanic and the removal of the xp penalty.
This game in many ways is better than WOW.
Had this game been released with all core classes, guild housing, crafting, and monks? WOW would trying to keep its subs.

*sigh* I never said we were wow. However two people including a dev were giving WoW as an example of how reasonable the new mechanic was. I was just pointing out that we shouldn't use WoW as proof that anything is a good idea.

What I find funny is that the PNP loyalist were calling the xp loss loyal to the DND clan when in fact the loss of a level is more in line with it. .

I like the level loss part, I always thought we should have a bigger xp hit. But nothing in PnP damages your equipment for no obvious reason just because you die.

The most frequent complaints about the XP penalty weren't on the forum, but were in newbie feedback. They're a very important segment of the population, as today's newbie is tomorrow's veteran. I've also seen enough groups fall apart when a critical party member dies and logs off to regenerate XP debt in the mid to high levels..

I try to follow the newbie forums... I think they average a post a week in total... so how many complaints in that flood you responded to?

2. Yes, there were times where items degraded over time. And some of those items were pretty darn valuable.
Like my SOS that i have had since the dragon came out. Reaching near uselessness of damage. What about the dreamspitter I was lucky enough to attain? Those items are rare and perm damage didn't make sense since it meant at some point they would need to be replaced. There are ways in PNP to protect your items permanently, why not here? It was high time for a system to be put in place like that.

Not permanently damaging bound items is indeed a good idea.

So Eladrin the whole point of binding items is to remove them from use in the game by multiple characters? Is this right or wrong. please explain if I am wrong.

All the evidence points to the damage upon death and the ability to bind items and then bounded items not taking damage. So is this to remove the proliferation of items that are available in game? If so just say that.

Ya that's been asked a couple times in this thread and E keeps ignoring that question. Makes me think that really is the hidden agenda. And oddly enough, its the one that would probably get more support than "honest its to make it more fun for you".

[Serpent]

You have options.

You have the choice of:

A) A system where you can freely pass items around to other characters, yours or someone else's, but where they take permanent damage over time.

B) A system where items take no permanent damage, but you cannot pass them around to other characters.

Feel free to choose whichever you prefer.

Thank you MT but I was looking for a response from El concerning my question of why? I know what the options break down to be.

Also under the current system we have letter A already. So what is the reason for letter B? I know of no one calling for a change because they broke something.