Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[Oreg]

I have avoided this thread from the beginning because I was trying to think of a single reason to support this. And I can't. So I have to ask the questions...

1. Why is the xp death penalty being changed from the current system? Did people complain about it? Do the devs feel it is not enough of a deterrent to death? Too much deterrent? Please explain the logic as to what was wrong with the way it is.

2. Why do we need "bound" items? Were there substantial situations where valuable loot degraded to be unusable? Even if you do move forward with item decay on death as part of the penalty, why should people be able to circumvent this with "binding"? Heck I think there already is item damage on death. When I run a flawless quest and rarely get hit, I don't have to repair. When I die or get a few fireballs, flamestrikes whatever hit me, I do have to repair items. So - it currently works this way. Why change?

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

Exactly what quest provides Unavoidable death?*snip*
Every other quest, your life is pretty much in your own hands. I fyou choose not to be self sufficient and you die.. Well, more times thannot, thats on you. Not the game..... Not the Quest....*snip*

Shouldn't that be "Every quest you solo, your life is pretty much in your own hands..."
Honestly, My deaths have been rarely self induced.
Mostly, I die due to other party members improper use of agro.
Unless I am soloing.
Then that is all my fault.

The unavoidable death thing was reference to certain quests in which death happens regularly/often/routinely based on the views of the guildie I mentioned earlier..
On ELITE level.
Such as Invaders!
~~everytime I go in there some one dies...Some times the party wipes.
Giant Hold Tor
~~I haven't been in that quest once in which someone didn't die.
Reaver Raid
~~nope! never saw anyone die in there...
Unavoidable death happens. No matter how well you plan.
It is not always caused by the person who died.
The mistakes of others often leave even the most prepared dead.


But I guess that was just to negate my post...
Which was actually about reducing the proposed damage on death penalty....
To a ever shrinking number /death.

Guess it isnt a popular idea.

[Cheg]

With only 3 relics needed to repair it, that is possibly just a single run through the required gianthold quest. And the fact you only need to repair it when it breaks, it should be easy enough to sustain.

[miceelf88]

Is damage to equipment in most other games EVER permanent?

Furthermore,
http://www.wowwiki.com/Durability

"Items cannot permanently break!"

-------------------------------------------------------------

But, in all seriousness, were a lot of people complaining that the XP penalty was too steep? Or that it wasn't steep enough? I thought it was fine, even though it slowed my progress through mid levels. More time to enjoy the content.

The big thing was that a death didn't increase my odds of dying again, leading to a possible cascade. If death is going to have short term effects that limit playability, while at the same time increasing odds of PERMANENT harm to the character in the form of equipment damage, it's going to be pretty cold and lonely looking for a PUG, or even grouping with a guildy that you are not 100% comfortable with.

Honestly, I have never said to myself- gee, why am I having an XP penalty on death- if only something would make my character useless for a while, that would be so much better!

[MysticTheurge]

Perhaps in the case of special items that require special upkeep, they should take a lower percentage of damage per death.

As Cheg points out, they're also reducing the number of relics you need to repair dragon armor to 3.

I assume that means you'll only need 3 relics every 10 deaths. That seems fairly easily achieved. If nothing else, you can buy them off the auction house.

2. Why do we need "bound" items?

Some people don't like the idea that they're carefully gained items might eventually have to be replaced. This system gives them an alternative.

It's not like anyone is forcing you to use it.

[Coldin]

As Cheg points out, they're also reducing the number of relics you need to repair dragon armor to 3.

I assume that means you'll only need 3 relics every 10 deaths. That seems fairly easily achieved. If nothing else, you can buy them off the auction house.

Ah, I missed that it was reduced to 3. Well, that seems more fair now.

[Vizzini]

Will restorations be able to take of neg lvl's from death penalty?

[Cheg]

No. Only things that remove it are waiting, and Unyielding Sovereignty.

[ccheath776]

I don't suppose it would occur to you that some of us tried WoW and are here instead of there at least in part because of the death mechanic? Actually, to tell you the truth I deleted my test account while running back to grab my body...

Moving in the direction of WoW is not bright. If we wanted WoW...well WoW is better at being WoW than you are.

DDO is hardly WOW even with the new mechanic. You will not have to run around for you body when you die. Just go to a res shrine like before.
Nothings changed for the most part, just a neg level mechanic and the removal of the xp penalty.
This game in many ways is better than WOW.
Had this game been released with all core classes, guild housing, crafting, and monks? WOW would trying to keep its subs.

[ccheath776]

I'd like to briefly point out that a "mitigation after the fact" system might actually help prevent the "OMG h8 teh clericz!!" attitude people seem afraid of. If the cleric was able to help reduce the effects of death after it'd happened, there'd be a bit (if not a lot) less blaming clerics for everything.



It'd be a lot easier to make up counter-reasons for why Item Defense should work if someone could tell me what the reason is that your items are actually taking damage in the first place.

I mean aside from "It's good game design to give people ways to (at least partially) mitigate penalties."

What I find funny is that the PNP loyalist were calling the xp loss loyal to the DND clan when in fact the loss of a level is more in line with it.

The people who should be applauding it the most are the loyalist. My fear is bugs. I just hope it works as intended.
I for one, who has experience with codes and scripts, get chills of fright when people start talking about percentage losses because it reeks havoc on game code. Too much possibility of rounding errors and math errors from calculation. But if they have a good math engine it will prolly not matter. It still gives me the shakes.

[Serpent]

Didn't want to take the time to read it all at once but I see two things and I am looking for clarification.

1) death now either has a wait it out attitude or keep going and deal with the consequences. Thats how I see it.

2) The whole purpose in binding items is to stop them getting wear. Wear is now increased because of possible death. So we now bind items to stop them from breaking? So they are just wanting to remove uber weapons?

So in others terms if we don't die we don't ahve to repair broken items, so we don't have to worry about binding them. I see only the problem in having certain deaths requiring someone to die or a sacrificial pawn. What happens when this is maybe implimented. not saying it will.

The new death system will stop those or hinder those that maybe die at a shrine and then get back up to finish the fight. Not sure if thats a good thing or a bad thing. Also the item wear issue seems to be a slightly under handed way for the devs to get items out of the system, ie to break them faster. They give a concession by letting us bind them, to stop them from breaking. Now I thought they were goign to let us improve items when we bind them? is this still true?

[Eladrin]

Is damage to equipment in most other games EVER permanent?

There are several games in which there is permanent equipment damage.

Most games that don't have permanent damage bind all magical gear on equip. We're giving you the choice whether you want to bind (and avoid all permanent damage) or not.

But, in all seriousness, were a lot of people complaining that the XP penalty was too steep? Or that it wasn't steep enough? I thought it was fine, even though it slowed my progress through mid levels. More time to enjoy the content.

The most frequent complaints about the XP penalty weren't on the forum, but were in newbie feedback. They're a very important segment of the population, as today's newbie is tomorrow's veteran. I've also seen enough groups fall apart when a critical party member dies and logs off to regenerate XP debt in the mid to high levels.

The negative level debuffs have intentionally short durations and quickly decay over time so as not to cripple characters for the occasional death, but still provide a short period of vulnerability. They're primarily meant to be a nod to the level loss in D&D without extreme long-term effects.

[chemonz]

Count me in as one of those opposed to this change. I will give it a try and keep an open mind but my first impression is definitely negative. If I don't bind my equipment and I try to do something challenging my equipment will take a lot of damage and this may cause a lot more permanent damage even with the lessened chance to incur permanent damage when repairing. A least that is my fear.

On another point why do SOME permadeathers and roleplayers feel the need to disparage everyone who dares to zerg, powergame, or loot run??? Why do they have such a problem with people who don't play their way. I certainly don't want spend 3 hours in a quest I can zerg in 45, but if others do great. I will just find a different party to do the quest with. Why do those who feel otherwise feel the need to force others to play their way and can't just find a group that matches their playstyle.

I don't want to go slow in a quest that I have done 20x or more. The first few times through, sure. Maybe if I am with a group of new players, sure sometimes a different approach is fun. But, I hate the idea of being forced to play one way. Now this change may not force me to play a certain way, it remains to be seen. But, I am tired of SOME players trying to dictate how others should play.

[miceelf88]

I'll also point out that I found it hard as hell to die in WOW, and have not had that problem in DDO. For one thing, there your mana and HP are constantly regening. Which is not the case in DDO. *(I am NOT advocating DDO have this approach, merely suggesting one reason why one might expect different death penalties in this vs. that). AND that WOW is not one of those games where damage is permanent, since that's the comparison we're making.

Eladrin, thanks for clarifying about where the complaints were coming from. Were they upset that xp debt was too harsh a penalty or too light a penalty? I ask because the proposed system seems harsher to me. When I was a newbie I can't count how many times I drowned in the harbor trying to figure out movement. If I'd gotten some "your equipment has degraded and you're now weak" message, I might very well have tossed it at that point. I figured I could always work off xp debt, so it never bothered me. And it turned out I was right. THe xp debt was relatively easy to solve.

I really hope that you're confident that this proposed change will address whatever complaints you're getting from the newbie folks and not make it worse. And I hope I'm just being pessimistic and resistant to change, but TO ME (and only speaking for miceelf- pun) I really feel as if this is going to produce more negative player experience than the old system.

What WAS the most common complaint you saw about the xp penalty?

[ccheath776]

I have avoided this thread from the beginning because I was trying to think of a single reason to support this. And I can't. So I have to ask the questions...

1. Why is the xp death penalty being changed from the current system? Did people complain about it? Do the devs feel it is not enough of a deterrent to death? Too much deterrent? Please explain the logic as to what was wrong with the way it is.

2. Why do we need "bound" items? Were there substantial situations where valuable loot degraded to be unusable? Even if you do move forward with item decay on death as part of the penalty, why should people be able to circumvent this with "binding"? Heck I think there already is item damage on death. When I run a flawless quest and rarely get hit, I don't have to repair. When I die or get a few fireballs, flamestrikes whatever hit me, I do have to repair items. So - it currently works this way. Why change?

1. Yes people were concerned and there was another reason.
The concern was newer players trying to level up were finding themselves taking one step forward and 3 steps back. They would gain 1k xp then lose it upon a bad luck death.
Also there was a problem with the level cap being raised. DDO faced a quandry of a growing problem. How to do deal with the higher level XP debt.
How high does it go? 10k 20k at level 19?
If characters are going to lose that much on death then relavant quests would have to be made to offset that loss so players could recover XP loss.
Thats a task that is not worth the dev time to consider. Better to eliminate that factor in favor of something that is less cumbersome to game design.
So its really not all about the players who didn't like it. Its also about the fact that the game is evolving and growing so certain systems that may have worked when the cap was 10 no longer are valid when the cap is 16 or even 20.

2. Yes, there were times where items degraded over time. And some of those items were pretty darn valuable.
Like my SOS that i have had since the dragon came out. Reaching near uselessness of damage. What about the dreamspitter I was lucky enough to attain? Those items are rare and perm damage didn't make sense since it meant at some point they would need to be replaced. There are ways in PNP to protect your items permanently, why not here? It was high time for a system to be put in place like that.

[ccheath776]

There are several games in which there is permanent equipment damage.

Most games that don't have permanent damage bind all magical gear on equip. We're giving you the choice whether you want to bind (and avoid all permanent damage) or not.


The most frequent complaints about the XP penalty weren't on the forum, but were in newbie feedback. They're a very important segment of the population, as today's newbie is tomorrow's veteran. I've also seen enough groups fall apart when a critical party member dies and logs off to regenerate XP debt in the mid to high levels.

The negative level debuffs have intentionally short durations and quickly decay over time so as not to cripple characters for the occasional death, but still provide a short period of vulnerability. They're primarily meant to be a nod to the level loss in D&D without extreme long-term effects.

Hit the nail on the head there. New players just felt like they were going nowhere fast and could not keep up with the higher levelers.
I just wish this could be sooner. I've told some of the weekly new players of the change and they are excited. I have reached out to those who left to bring them back.

[Eladrin]

What WAS the most common complaint you saw about the xp penalty?

That it was too harsh. Essentially "I lost hours of my time because I got killed".

I can't say it better than ccheath776 did: "The concern was newer players trying to level up were finding themselves taking one step forward and 3 steps back."

When I was a newbie I can't count how many times I drowned in the harbor trying to figure out movement. If I'd gotten some "your equipment has degraded and you're now weak" message, I might very well have tossed it at that point.

At low levels, the proposed death penalties are very light. You'll have to drown yourself quite a few times to get appreciable item wear at levels 2-3.

2. Yes, there were times where items degraded over time. And some of those items were pretty darn valuable.
Like my SOS that i have had since the dragon came out. Reaching near uselessness of damage. What about the dreamspitter I was lucky enough to attain? Those items are rare and perm damage didn't make sense since it meant at some point they would need to be replaced. There are ways in PNP to protect your items permanently, why not here? It was high time for a system to be put in place like that.

I'm going to be examining ways to repair permanent damage on bound objects as well in the future. At the moment I don't have the tech needed to do that, but it's on my M7 wish list.

[ccheath776]

Didn't want to take the time to read it all at once but I see two things and I am looking for clarification.

1) death now either has a wait it out attitude or keep going and deal with the consequences. Thats how I see it.

2) The whole purpose in binding items is to stop them getting wear. Wear is now increased because of possible death. So we now bind items to stop them from breaking? So they are just wanting to remove uber weapons?

So in others terms if we don't die we don't ahve to repair broken items, so we don't have to worry about binding them. I see only the problem in having certain deaths requiring someone to die or a sacrificial pawn. What happens when this is maybe implimented. not saying it will.

The new death system will stop those or hinder those that maybe die at a shrine and then get back up to finish the fight. Not sure if thats a good thing or a bad thing. Also the item wear issue seems to be a slightly under handed way for the devs to get items out of the system, ie to break them faster. They give a concession by letting us bind them, to stop them from breaking. Now I thought they were goign to let us improve items when we bind them? is this still true?

1. Wrong. Go play other MMO's that have neg buffs on death. Nobody waits around for the buffs to disappear they simply play through it. If the neg buff becomes to much as in dying too much they simply move on to another quest. We play with neg levels now, especially when coming upon a beholder. Its not really changed from that in all honesty.

2. Bound items should be special and not subject to damage. Also binding items is optional. Guild wars has a way to make a weapon custom fit to you. This mechanic is no different than that and better in some ways.

[miceelf88]

Thanks for being so responsive, Eladrin. I hope you're right that this change will be an improvement. I don't see it, but I trust you're wiser than I. This just seems harsher to me.

[ateknogod]

ok, i have read all 23 pages of this thread. i like the general discussion going on, but i still can't see a single positive to this change. i have become bored with my capped characters, so i started rolling new ones. if i have to lock all my gear as i get it to keep it from permadamage, i wont be making any new characters. i have already started from scratch and worked my way to having nice gear, and don't see the need to have to do it every time i roll a new character. this seems like a change that will greatly hurt the game. take the abbot raid. it has been broken for so long that nobody was running it. now it 'technically' is not broken, but it is still no fun. i understand that the reaver is insanely easy, and that we beat up on all the other raid bosses, but does anyone actually run the abbot?

this change looks like a gamebreaker to me.