Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[roggane]

[QUOTE=Impaqt;1475466][QUOTE=roggane;1475440]

Hmmm.. Dont think so.... The Item wear is my Sticking point. 10% Per death is too extreme and I fully beleive this will be modified before the cahnge goes live. If we can use our repair skill to fix up our own items, Then perhaps it wont be so bad...... With the reduction in items taking permanent damage, I'd have to experience the system before I can say for sure.... But I'm willing to wait till I see the system in action on Risia before condeming the idea entirely.

Yep, item wear my sticking point as well.

Why have the death penalties for a time period AND add item wear on top of it?

[GrayOldDruid]

I was out running in the desert last night with a guildie who brought up a concern.

If the % damage is based on the "original maximum durability" then stuff with 50% permanent damage would be unusable in 5 deaths.

If each time the death damage taken was 10% of the remaining durability, I would be so happy.

Uhm... Repair between deaths??

I don't see what is so challenging about this idea....

Casters are recalling for mana all the time, heck people even EXPECT them to recall if they get low...

Now everyone will have a good reason to take an xp hit and recall out - REPAIR. That is, IF they die a lot.

And even ME, first-time-getting-near-cap, in Madstone, Elite, only died three times. How often do you die five times in one quest without recalling??

on top of this, the chance for permanent damage is decreased... (Good thing) I have had one item to get so damaged that I repaired it up and sold it - think it was a silver ring of something... Dex maybe... low toughness to begin with and it was at like 6 points left on it.

[Impaqt]

[QUOTE=roggane;1475494][QUOTE=Impaqt;1475466]

Yep, item wear my sticking point as well.

Why have the death penalties for a time period AND add item wear on top of it?

I cant find another MMO that punishes death with Item wear.....


ANyone have precidence?

[roggane]

That's interesting, the page you linked to is incomplete... This page includes all of their death effects - over there you also take 10% damage to all equipped items when you die, and all objects in your entire inventory lose 25% if you use a Spirit Healer instead of running back to your body.

There was quite a bit of research done before we selected these penalties.

sweet, more like wow. awesome.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

That's interesting, the page you linked to is incomplete... This page includes all of their death effects - over there you also take 10% damage to all equipped items when you die, and all objects in your entire inventory lose 25% if you use a Spirit Healer instead of running back to your body.

There was quite a bit of research done before we selected these penalties.

I don't suppose it would occur to you that some of us tried WoW and are here instead of there at least in part because of the death mechanic? Actually, to tell you the truth I deleted my test account while running back to grab my body...

Moving in the direction of WoW is not bright. If we wanted WoW...well WoW is better at being WoW than you are.

[Cheg]

I cant find another MMO that punishes death with Item wear.....


ANyone have precidence?

Many MMO's have death that you lose your items all together. Atleast if you don't make it back to where you died, whilst being naked.

This is the death penalty from a game i used to play, called Astonia.

Thou shalt have to partake in many a battle during the course of thy life in Astonia. Shouldst thou ever die with no Saves to thy name, thou shalt lose all thine equipment and all items in thine inventory. Thou hast the chance to regain thy belongings if thou canst reach the place of thy death, where thy body will await thee for 30 minutes. Since Ishtar doth not gladly suffer his followers to fail in battle, each death shall be punished by Negative Experience.

However, every time thou reachest the next level, Ishtar will be pleased and grant thee one Save, thus once saving you from death.
Thou shalt not lose thy belongings nor receive Negative Experience if thy death occurs in an area marked as an Arena.
When thou hast slain thine enemy, SHIFT/LEFT CLICK on his body to loot him.

If thou art a Player Killer (PK), and are killed by another PK, a Save shall not be used, even if thou hast one or several Saves left. Neither shalt thou be punished by Negative Experience.

[Impaqt]

That's interesting, the page you linked to is incomplete... This page includes all of their death effects - over there you also take 10% damage to all equipped items when you die, and all objects in your entire inventory lose 25% if you use a Spirit Healer instead of running back to your body.

There was quite a bit of research done before we selected these penalties.

Oh, I wasnt talking to you folks Eladrin, that was more for the folks opposed to your changes.... Was showing them that death does have more significant consequenses in other games....

Didnt realize they added Item wear into Wow Though.... Hmmmm..

[Avonwey]

[QUOTE=Impaqt;1475499][QUOTE=roggane;1475494]

I cant find another MMO that punishes death with Item wear.....


ANyone have precidence?

LOTRO

[Ustice]

I don't think that it was a negative play experience (the experience penalty) since I just generally avoided some of the trickier quests without the right group. What I like about the new system is that it will give death some teeth, and be seen as something to be avoided a lot more. There is a reason why the perma-death play-style is as popular as it is. Since death has high consequences, you have to go slower, and think more. Death SHOULD be avoided. I don't think that the system as it is needs to change, I think that the BALANCING does. Mobs are still too deadly (on hard/elite). Right now, that doesn't matter. I realize that they are supposed to be harder, but difficulty increase that exists versus the level increase is out of whack. We still have problems with mobs having too high of SR/Saves/Hit Dice. The biggest example is Turn Undead. While it has seen a boost lately, it is still mostly good for DV. For that matter, Undeath to Death is useless by the time that you get the spell.

All that being said...

Since we are reexamining death in DDO, has there been any thought put to removing Rest Shrines? I think that they are more disruptive to game play than XP loss, since when I am out of mana, I can't find a safe spot, squat down, and take a nap. If I have no rest shrine, I have to exit the quest, take a large XP hit, slog my way to a tavern, and back. All the while the whole party is probably waiting for me. So not only is my character development being slowed by having to exit, but it is also slowing the progression of the quest.

I would seem a much better solution to let us choose where and when we rest. Maybe add in the skill Survival from the PnP game. You can use Survival to set up camp. After the camp is secure, you can rest there. When someone rests there, there could be a possibility of mob spawning based on the Survival skill check, and the location chosen (a well used path would have a much higher chance than a secluded alcove (make the current shrine locations into these). As the number of camps in a quest increases, so does the chance of a random encounter. If you are disturbed, you do not get to rest. Then just set a par for rests for each quest (based on the number of rest shrines currently), set the types of mobs that spawn, optionally set zones for increased/decreased difficulty, and that should be it (not that coding that is quick...).

A possible example:

Camping difficulty = 10 + (Level of the quest x (location: 1.0 for good location, 1.5 for default location, 2.0 for poor location)) + 4 x (number of camping attempts - camping par)

So for the first time in a level 10 quest (average 2 rests) in a good location, the difficulty would be 16 (almost a sure thing with a good ranger in he group). The second time in an average spot is 25. The third time in an average spot is 29. If this doesn't look right, all you have to do is adjust the par.


The nice thing about a system like this is that instead of running back to a shrine/tavern dragging the pace of the game, resting becomes exciting. (Heck you could even though in some RARE mini-bosses that spawn on a failed camp attempt.)

Also it is an excuse to bring in Survival, which can then be used with a tracking feat, which brings a whole new game-play mechanic.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Ok yesterday I said I would read before posting, but Ive decided otherwise.

So quick question.

The damage your gear will take from death, is it permadamage or repairable damage?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Ok yesterday I said I would read before posting, but Ive decided otherwise.

So quick question.

The damage your gear will take from death, is it permadamage or repairable damage?

repairable

[Impaqt]

Ok yesterday I said I would read before posting, but Ive decided otherwise.

So quick question.

The damage your gear will take from death, is it permadamage or repairable damage?

It would HAVE to be repairable. ad the fact that they are talking about the repair skill coming into play would indicate this as well...

Not to mention the fact that Bound items dont take permanent daamge anymore.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

repairable

Ty ty.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

It would HAVE to be repairable. ad the fact that they are talking about the repair skill coming into play would indicate this as well...

Not to mention the fact that Bound items dont take permanent daamge anymore.

You sir, did not read my post in full.

I clearly stated I was an ignoramous before asking the question.

[wizzy_catt]

My uber Wise Mask of Bluffing!


A lot of Khyber Dragonshard Fragments, and a view of the Stone of Change.


Put them in the Stone of Change and activate it! It's smart enough to only take as many shards as it needs - 81 for my minimum level 9 item.


Ritual Success!


It's bound, and now forever immune to permanent damage.

Can you make them unbound whenever you want? say you want to xfer a haggle +15 hat over to other characters but you've made it bound to currect character is it possible to make unbound and mail it?

[Pellegro]

I've read pages 1-15 or so, and scanned the rest.

I'm not firmly convinced of what effects this will have - I am willing to wait and try it out.

That said, the best suggestion I have seen to allay fears may be the one that suggested no item wear on normal, or even normal and hard.

Item wear only on elite.

I think this is a good compromise. And, if I understand the underlying motivations correctly, I think this type of compromise would still achieve the underlying goal. And ... again assuming I correctly see why this is being done ... Turbine could further get to where they want us to to be later, by providing sufficiently tempting favor rewards.

Just a thought.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Can you make them unbound whenever you want? say you want to xfer a haggle +15 hat over to other characters but you've made it bound to currect character is it possible to make unbound and mail it?

Somewhere in this thread El said you can't unbind...which kind of makes sense or we would all bind everything and unbind later so what's the point?

[MysticTheurge]

2) Mitigation After The Fact - Resurrection lessens the penalty to 5%, Raise Dead/Shrine to 10% (at the top level). This would give another benefit to these spells, as opposed to the half-life for Resurrect. It would make Clerics slightly more useful than they are now, as well as make Resurrect scrolls a premium.

I'd like to briefly point out that a "mitigation after the fact" system might actually help prevent the "OMG h8 teh clericz!!" attitude people seem afraid of. If the cleric was able to help reduce the effects of death after it'd happened, there'd be a bit (if not a lot) less blaming clerics for everything.

I really wouldn't say that Item Defense when dead should matter at all. Once you are dead, you can not actively move in such a manner to where your armor and items will take less damage.

It'd be a lot easier to make up counter-reasons for why Item Defense should work if someone could tell me what the reason is that your items are actually taking damage in the first place.

I mean aside from "It's good game design to give people ways to (at least partially) mitigate penalties."

[Lorien_the_First_One]

My uber Wise Mask of Bluffing!

Hey El, as a side issue... where do you farm that mask? I've been trying to get a +2 wis item with some bluff on it for almost a year now!

[Coldin]

One of my guildmates brought up the point about Dragon armor. Since it's bound, it will no longer take permanent damage, but it will take regular damage. Since running Gianthold quests are quickly going out of style beyond the occasional Reaver raid, collecting relics is a bit of a chore to keep the armor in good condition. Since the system is based off of percentages, that means that before one dies 10 times while wearing the dragon armor, you'll have to collect enough relics to repair it. Unless one makes a point of always running Gianthold quests, they'll quickly find themselves without any extra relics for repairs.

Perhaps in the case of special items that require special upkeep, they should take a lower percentage of damage per death.

(Sorry if this has been said before, but this thread is 23 pages long now.)