Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[Sensei]

I think there needs to be a way to keep our high end loot safe rather than binding it. Who wants to bind their sup pot 6 scepter. One day my cleric wont need it but I may have a sorc that does. What about that W/P Rapier? Those items are not something I want bound. But if there were say an expensive way to unbind (not raid loot) or an expensive way to repair perma damage, I would be fine with this.

Can we get something like this? Our items are very important to us. And when we choose to not bind items (for good purposes), it's good to know that we can at least save up for a repair to the perma damage, or that we can take those items and unbind them when better items come into the game.

[MysticTheurge]

I just have a little fear about the floodgates we may open if Enhancements worked while dead.

In most cases it wouldn't make any difference as there's nothing you can do while dead.

Item Defense and maybe the Human one that improves healing (and would thus give more HP on a Resurrection) are the only ones I can think that might make any difference at all.

[ArkoHighStar]

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards "reduced damage" rather than "no damage."

It would still give you a cushion, but prevent the above from happening.

if we use the repair at shrine method combined with the multiple use of shrines on normal, casual players will be doing quite well, as well as first time for anything which usually takes longer and could see the shrines recycle even for trailblazers or more hardcore players coming on their heels. Hard and elite which have no reusable shrines would rely only on the repair skill of the party, or recallingout to get some repairs done.

[ArkoHighStar]

and well u can always go to the quest with an exploration/binded set of equipment

that just favors people with a lot of cash who can build multiple sets of items.

[GeneralDiomedes]

It Easy to solve..

First Normal - no dmg
First Hard - 75% reduced dmg
First hard - 50% reduced dmg

or somthing like that

Or perhaps 50% reduction on Normal, and only for a limited time. I submit that once you've seen the surprises on Normal, Hard and Elite doesn't consititue trailblazing.

Again, for someone not repeating at the same difficulty, they are basically not experiencing a real penalty the entire time. To experience actual equipment failure at a 50% reduction you would have to die 20 times in a quest. That is just not going to happen.

[totmacher]

I think one thing people have failed to mention (and I may have missed it) is that things like rings and amulets will deteriorate faster than say weapons and armor. Because it's a fixed 10% damage and item HPs are not created equal, these things will deteriorate unfairly in a sense. An amulet with 60 HPs will deteriorate as a percentage of its life way faster than the Sword of Shadows with 180. Is this intended, Eladrin?

After reading a good part of this thread, I would have no problem with the item wear penalty on death if it satisfied some conditions really. I think the majority of the population could live with it, as it implements an MMO standard but is not too harsh.

1) Mitigation Before the Fact - Like MT was saying, some sort of spell or effect could lessen these penalties as well. Maybe a 6s/level (think Haste) duration buff that would be an area of effect. Something like Planned Mending, that would offset item damage for non-bound items for those particularly challenging fights. Something we could basically do if we know we are about to die (think Abbot Firestorm, charging into Velah, etc.)

2) Mitigation After The Fact - Resurrection lessens the penalty to 5%, Raise Dead/Shrine to 10% (at the top level). This would give another benefit to these spells, as opposed to the half-life for Resurrect. It would make Clerics slightly more useful than they are now, as well as make Resurrect scrolls a premium.

3) Repair After The Fact - What about Permanent Item Damage repair, of say like a fixed cost (10 points) or a percentage of the current permanent damage (like 25%). Offset by something costly, like a Siberys Dragonshard. Or maybe a custom craftable, a Gnomish Repair Wand or something. Allow us to repair items which we want to pass around, don't penalize us for keeping that +3 holy greatsword of greater giant bane and saging it down through our 5 fighter toons.

Changing basic game dynamics (such as selling us on items that really couldn't be destroyed before) then changing it 2 years after release is not good devs. This is, in my opinion, what tore games like SWG apart. Fundamental changes to bedrock systems make it seem like the Devs are capricious and haven't got a good overall long-term game plan when it comes to this stuff. We know you mean well though.

[Hendrik]

Which is the problem. Say what you like, there WILL be a significant number of times (considering number of quests done per day) that people who have equipment with 20-40% existing permanent damage will have it become worn or broken in the middle of the quest. Even if the stuff is bound (and thus repairable) it will be unusable for the rest of the quest.

It's not such a huge deal for weapons because most people carry several, but how many suits of armor do people have? how many shields? boots? gloves? trinkets? belts? What happens when a Greater False Life item becomes worn?

You may think "if you die 7 times in a quest, serves you right". And you are free to feel that.

But Turbine needs to be a little more careful. You can't design for the "average" with these types of things. You need a system that can handle the extremes, because the extremes are not going to be rare with this sample size. The actual number of times people have multiple deaths is much much more relevant that the % of times people have multiple deaths.

Quests go ugly. Multiple deaths happen. And it is not always "unjustifiable" or "using death as a tactic".

A game mechanic that makes people avoid or give up on playing the quest is bad, imo. That was part of the problem with XP debt ("don't want to play anymore tonight, I got -4000 XP already"), and it could be an even worse problem with the equipment damage ("no, not that quest -- I died 5 times last time and had to recall to repair").

Challenge is good. Frustration is bad. Admittedly, sometimes there is a very fine line there.

Thank you for your input Dariun. Honestly sir, I really do not think there will be any real significant change in the amount of mid-quest broken/worn items. How often does that happen now?

What we are talking about is not questing, but Raids- lets all be honest. How many times have people broke/worn out an item in Titan/DQ/Reaver? Never seen it happen nor ever heard of it. Even after the new DP, we are looking at what? 10-15pts of damage on a death. How often are people dying in the established Raids? Very few unless there is some catastrophic mistake someplace or you are learning it.

I really do not believe it is all D&G. And convinced after Risia feedback, proper changes will be made if necessary.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Curious fact of the day: You can get a significant amount of the way to the cap without stepping into a single dungeon other than the two Old Sully's Grog quests, if you enjoy landscapes.

Oh rly?

[The_Ick]

I haven't read this whole thread, because i don't have that kind of time, but i will throw my 2 cents into the mix because my wife doesn't let me at home. :-)


I am probably what you would call a power gamer. I play most nights of the week. In the end this isn't really going to effect me that much. I have been playing since head start and made 20+ toons, and i have yet to damage a peice of equipment to the point where it isn't usable. So even if my equipment gets damaged more they lowered that chance of it taking permanant damage, so in the end i am assuming it will work out. Here are my concerns though.

Little concern
I think this will effect new players and cansual gamers because they won't always have the funda needed to repair items. They said they lowered it, but i have started from scratch on other servers and i didn't have 2 cps to rub together. Doesn't effect me, but might suck for others.

Big Concern
Every time a new Mod is released, toons change. Some of them a little some of them alot. Most of the time i have found myself rerolling any toons that get "nerfed", it is just part of playing an MMO (especially this one). Well if people start to bind equipment, they will be less willing to reroll toons. That is going to make swallowing balancing change that nerf certain builds a lot harder for a lot of people. They won't just be deleting a toon, they will be deleting any/all bound equipment. I am not saying to undo the new death penalty rule, just come up with something for when you reroll toons. People are gonna be ****ed if they have to delete a full set of +6 stat items, a vorpal, disruptor, smiter, +5 MFP, etc...


I don't really plan on binding any of my equipment for just that reason, but it seems to me that rerolling toons and trying new builds is a big part of this game. You can really do some cool things. Why would you want to lesson the likelyhood that someone would want to do that. It lowers the game replayability IMO.

[Sensei]

This is acctualy what I was thinking too. Make those full syberiss dragonshards mean a little more. Allow us to repair perma damage. I dont want to worry myselft over the damage. At least neg xp debt could be made up. Perma damage to your favorite item currently cannot be.

[Missing_Minds]

In most cases it wouldn't make any difference as there's nothing you can do while dead.

Item Defense and maybe the Human one that improves healing (and would thus give more HP on a Resurrection) are the only ones I can think that might make any difference at all.

I really wouldn't say that Item Defense when dead should matter at all. Once you are dead, you can not actively move in such a manner to where your armor and items will take less damage.

Being mobile changes angles such to where you don't take the full brunt of a hit. (blocking means you are braced properly for such)

However, how many times in real life and in movies (really going to pick on movies here) have you seen someone take the final shot and die?

Cop/Gangster movies where someone loads armor piercing and shoots through the protective layers to kill a guy.
Arrows punctureing full plate and the knight gets killed.

Item defence didn't help a whole lot did it? This is how I am viewing the case of damage to equipment upon death. At least in armor. Rings, boots, and what have you... yeah.. can't really come up with anything for that part. I think it could be less of an issue if Turbine used a round UP method for how much HP is left. meaning that a ring with 5 hp, if it takes 10% damage, round it up, it would still be at 5 HP. Armor thta has about 100 hp, would go down by 10 however.

And as far as the binding issue goes. It does sound really great. Having something bound and it won't take perm damage.... You know, I honestly can't think of anything that I'd bother to bind. If it is something that ubar, chances are I'm going to also use it for trade at a later date to characters of lower levels. If I bind, I can't trade.

The sword of my father must be buried with my father. So much for a linage through the family blade. So while I think the binding is a good idea, I just don't see myself doing it ever.

[ArkoHighStar]

Thank you for your input Dariun. Honestly sir, I really do not think there will be any real significant change in the amount of mid-quest broken/worn items. How often does that happen now?

What we are talking about is not questing, but Raids- lets all be honest. How many times have people broke/worn out an item in Titan/DQ/Reaver? Never seen it happen nor ever heard of it. Even after the new DP, we are looking at what? 10-15pts of damage on a death. How often are people dying in the established Raids? Very few unless there is some catastrophic mistake someplace or you are learning it.

I really do not believe it is all D&G. And convinced after Risia feedback, proper changes will be made if necessary.

THis isn't about established raids or quests, it is about new content ,and new raids. Once any quest or raid becomes easy, you are right hardly anyone dies, but learning it even after you have strategies handed down from the trailblazers, can still be costly. group will abandon much earlier to restart than they do now, and this will just extend the amount of aggravation it takes to finally beat a raid.

[Sensei]

THis isn't about established raids or quests, it is about new content ,and new raids. Once any quest or raid becomes easy, you are right hardly anyone dies, but learning it even after you have strategies handed down from the trailblazers, can still be costly. group will abandon much earlier to restart than they do now, and this will just extend the amount of aggravation it takes to finally beat a raid.

This is so true. Capped players are willing to spend neg xp to test these things. But when you mess with their items, its a whole new ball game.

[Catica]

Big Concern
Every time a new Mod is released, toons change. Some of them a little some of them alot. Most of the time i have found myself rerolling any toons that get "nerfed", it is just part of playing an MMO (especially this one). Well if people start to bind equipment, they will be less willing to reroll toons. That is going to make swallowing balancing change that nerf certain builds a lot harder for a lot of people. They won't just be deleting a toon, they will be deleting any/all bound equipment. I am not saying to undo the new death penalty rule, just come up with something for when you reroll toons. People are gonna be ****ed if they have to delete a full set of +6 stat items, a vorpal, disruptor, smiter, +5 MFP, etc...


I don't really plan on binding any of my equipment for just that reason, but it seems to me that rerolling toons and trying new builds is a big part of this game. You can really do some cool things. Why would you want to lesson the likelyhood that someone would want to do that. It lowers the game replayability IMO.

I think this is a huge excellent point and something I didnt think of either. And very valid points I know alot of my guildies are constantly rerolling toons, and I have some plans to reroll some of mine once we get some of the new races in the game. I like you wasnt planning on binding any of my gear for other reasons but after this lightbulb I definately wont be now.

[WestiesMA]

The changes are detailed below:

• Bound items will no longer have a chance of taking permanent damage when repaired.
• The chance for permanent damage to be inflicted on unbound items when repaired has been halved.
• Item repair costs have been reduced for all items by 25%.
• Repair costs for Dragonscale items have been dropped to 3 relics of the appropriate type.

• This is very cool. If you have a beloved item, you can bind and protect it.
  
  
  

• As death is a traumatic experience, characters now acquire a debuff after being returned from the dead, based on the number of times the character has died since the last time they rested. The character will gain one temporary negative level and an additional -2 to saves vs. Fear effects per death since their last rest, but these are capped at ((level - 1) / 2, round down, maximum 5 temporary negative levels) so you cannot lose half your levels to temporary negative levels from death - a third level character can only be affected by one, while an eleventh or higher level character can collect all five. These penalties degrade at a rate of one stage per minute.

[Hendrik]

THis isn't about established raids or quests, it is about new content ,and new raids. Once any quest or raid becomes easy, you are right hardly anyone dies, but learning it even after you have strategies handed down from the trailblazers, can still be costly. group will abandon much earlier to restart than they do now, and this will just extend the amount of aggravation it takes to finally beat a raid.

I understand that point Arko, but what can be done?

We cannot lessen the impact of new content on those that want to run it before its solved for them. We cannot 'spoil' the dungeon.

Entering any new quest is, and rightly should be, inherently dangerous and possibly fatal. Less fatal and dangerous as we learn it. Should we offer up no DP or a smaller one to favor those that wish to adventure in unknown areas? No DP if you don't know the Quest, DP if you know it? We can jump in ourselves and try to learn the new quest or wait for someone to hold our hand through. Me? I drop off my best gear and change into something else and go learn.


Every decision made will benefit someone over someone else - we cannot avoid that.


It was aggravating to die over and over to learn past raids and we can't really make the learning process any easier. It's trial and error.

I still believe Arko, we need to do some testing on Risia and see how it all works and gather facts. If the DP is to much, we present our facts and shoot for a change. One thing is for sure, if we find the DP is to much on death, it will be changed.

[Cheg]

Oh rly?

No. The furthest you can get is 735exp short of level 5 before you have to enter a dungeon.

[miceelf88]

Honestly, have people really been that upset about the XP penalty on death? I found it slowed my advancement down somewhat, when I was soloing, but so what- there are still plenty of quests and XP available for people to leve with. I don't like this new change to the death penalty at all.

I find it hard to believe that the death penalty was the most pressing issue in terms of bad game play experience. I would be willing to bet that there are far more people whose enjoyment is ruined by quests/raids that depend on a perfect internet connection, ability to voicechat, and intricate twitch skills (Abbott, even after the fix), than were upset about the death penalty being XP.

[Renegade66]

It's a much nicer curve than that, with the exception of Dreams of Insanity (which has more than twice the average number of deaths as the second deadliest quest... Tempest's Spine.)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this statement is incorrect and that the Black Abbot holds the highest number of average deaths per quest. Since breaking the raid, everyone dies at least once and many party members die multiple times.

[Nirvana]

It's a much nicer curve than that, with the exception of Dreams of Insanity (which has more than twice the average number of deaths as the second deadliest quest... Tempest's Spine.)

I thought invaders on elite would be on the top list.. hehe