Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[MysticTheurge]

...or think they're dying a lot more than they really are.

Probably.

Though I think what some have pointed out is probably true.

My VoN3 groups these days usually have no deaths, my first VoN3 group ever had a bunch of deaths and we didn't even finish the quest.

People who, for lack of a better word, "trailblaze" are probably going to be looking at a number of deaths significantly above the average.

Maybe the item damage penalty could be reduced or removed if you were getting your "first time" bonus (for any level of difficulty, cause sometimes elite can be a very different quest than normal)?

[ArkoHighStar]

Well then Mystic, you're missing out.

/death brings up and interesting point, now that it shoots you out of a dungeon, there are no exploits that can be done in quest with it, so if you /slash death while conscious it should not give you a penalty or item damage

[lethal413]

Eladrin we have reason to think your doing a certain action not in spirit of the game.

i mean look at his inventory EXACTLY 10 k plat
all that named gh lootz
im throwing a red flag on this one

[GeneralDiomedes]

I can. My data indicated that there are, on average, under 2 deaths per party per quest. (Less than 0.6 deaths per party per quest if you weight the quests based on which ones are run more often than others. Dreams of Insanity really kicks the average up.)

The feedback I'm receiving here seems to indicate that people are dying a lot more than the data indicates, or think they're dying a lot more than they really are.

That was my feeling.

I mean, how many times are you people dying in a typical quest? Maybe I really don't want to know. But know that I've spent my fair share pugging .. and maybe it's not as often as you claim.

What would be really really interesting .. is if you could show us the average deaths per quest for all quests. I've often wanted to know which were _really_ the hardest quests in the game. I always suspected Dreams of Insanity was the hardest.

[Coldin]

Dreams of Insanity really kicks the average up.

Haha, the first time our group ran that quest, I think everyone died about 10 times each.

On any normal quest at our level, about 2 deaths seems right. Sometimes no one dies, sometimes everyone dies (though a complete party wipe hasn't really happened for quite some time now).


Hmm, I wonder how much /deathing as a means of transportation interferes with that data.

[moorewr]

I can. My data indicated that there are, on average, under 2 deaths per party per quest. (Less than 0.6 deaths per party per quest if you weight the quests based on which ones are run more often than others. Dreams of Insanity really kicks the average up.)

The feedback I'm receiving here seems to indicate that people are dying a lot more than the data indicates, or think they're dying a lot more than they really are.

oo! Please post lots of stats and graphs. This is cool.

[ArkoHighStar]

I can. My data indicated that there are, on average, under 2 deaths per party per quest. (Less than 0.6 deaths per party per quest if you weight the quests based on which ones are run more often than others. Dreams of Insanity really kicks the average up.)

The feedback I'm receiving here seems to indicate that people are dying a lot more than the data indicates, or think they're dying a lot more than they really are.

Do you have data over time on this Eladrin. Because I imagine what you will see is when content first comes out, the average death per quest is much higher and slowly trends down as the quest besomes more familiar. This happens with everyone I suspect, unless they are tour guided though a quest their first time. But the first days of new content even the trailblazers are dying a few times more than they would on average

[Cheg]

I would love to see the death ratio on all quests. Invaders! must also be fairly high. As well as Freshen the Air and Swiped Signet on level 4's elite!

[Hendrik]

I can. My data indicated that there are, on average, under 2 deaths per party per quest. (Less than 0.6 deaths per party per quest if you weight the quests based on which ones are run more often than others. Dreams of Insanity really kicks the average up.)

The feedback I'm receiving here seems to indicate that people are dying a lot more than the data indicates, or think they're dying a lot more than they really are.

That seems about right to me for normal Questing.

Can/does your data show the average for Raids? I believe this is where many are doing the most dying and might be the root cause to most of the angst over the change.

When we start a new Raid, deaths will be high with a small, if any, reward to show for it. High risk for little reward - as it should be for starting something new!

As time goes by, the Risk vs Reward balances out as we learn more. In the end we have very little Risk for a High Reward.

A perfect example is the Reaver.

I mean no offense to my fellow members here, but I get a gut feeling it's the initial Risk vs Reward stage for learning the new Raid is the sore spot. We all know we will die at some point learning it. It's part of the process. But putting forth such a Risk at the start is to much for some.

For me, while I learn the Abbot, I will leave my high-end gear in the bank and take my backups.

[MysticTheurge]

End boss raids have no way of countering a mounting death penalty, and 5 deaths in a new raid is not a far fetched scenario.

Well, there is Unyielding Sovereignty. Though I do think a few more methods could be added, either specific to those quests or just general methods to remove the penalty and/or reset the counter.

Do you have data over time on this Eladrin. Because I imagine what you will see is when content first comes out, the average death per quest is much higher and slowly trends down as the quest besomes more familiar. This happens with everyone I suspect, unless they are tour guided though a quest their first time. But the first days of new content even the trailblazers are dying a few times more than they would on average

I'm curious what you think about my "Reduced or no item damage while getting your First Time bonus" idea. It would at least reduce/remove the item damage you'd take while trying to figure a quest out (as you continue to receive the bonus until the first time you successfully complete the quest).

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Eladrin we have reason to think your doing a certain action not in spirit of the game.

i mean look at his inventory EXACTLY 10 k plat
all that named gh lootz
im throwing a red flag on this one

I think he's a farmer Ok everyone, send your twigs to Eladrin!

I can. My data indicated that there are, on average, under 2 deaths per party per quest. (Less than 0.6 deaths per party per quest if you weight the quests based on which ones are run more often than others. Dreams of Insanity really kicks the average up.)

The feedback I'm receiving here seems to indicate that people are dying a lot more than the data indicates, or think they're dying a lot more than they really are.

I think its spotty El. As you hint at, I'm sure that if you ran that average through a distribution analysis you would find it was far from normally distributed.

Sometimes you can run for days without a death, and then you get in a pop/ghost run that should be a brease but things go wrong and you wipe twice at the end boss.

There is also the trail blazer syndrom for new quests, but that one is as you would expect.

I've been in plenty of old quests where there weren't "experts" leading the way. My first pass at the Vons resulted in huge multiples deaths because I was mostly running pugs at the time and managed to get with a "new" group who didn't know anything about the quests for each of Von1-3.

It's those type of days where death sux and where this would be further annoyance. Clearly people are dying enough to be upset under the current system or the xp debt thing wouldn't be on your radar

[GeneralDiomedes]

People who, for lack of a better word, "trailblaze" are probably going to be looking at a number of deaths significantly above the average.

Maybe the item damage penalty could be reduced or removed if you were getting your "first time" bonus (for any level of difficulty, cause sometimes elite can be a very different quest than normal)?

The death penalty is _obviously_ going to be more of a concern when doing something the first few (or dozen) times. Isn't that the whole point of this excercise? I mean, for a group running a quest for the 200th time, you could effectively remove all death penalties from the game and it wouldn't make a difference one way or the other.

[Hendrik]

Probably.

Though I think what some have pointed out is probably true.

My VoN3 groups these days usually have no deaths, my first VoN3 group ever had a bunch of deaths and we didn't even finish the quest.

People who, for lack of a better word, "trailblaze" are probably going to be looking at a number of deaths significantly above the average.

Maybe the item damage penalty could be reduced or removed if you were getting your "first time" bonus (for any level of difficulty, cause sometimes elite can be a very different quest than normal)?

Ohhh!!


Another good one by MT!

I like this suggestion!!!!

[Largo_Kyber]

So the item defense line of enhnacements is now pointless?

[lethal413]

lol i trailblaze just because dying isnt too bad atm they may kill me but i kill a few of them

[lethal413]

and i know ^^ thats the mentality theyre trying to change

[kruggar]

I like the idea but i have a few point i want to adress:

1- The idea of damaging equipment upon death will ad a great responsability in the shoulders of the clerics, think in a guy that died a few times and blamed the cleric for his destructed vorpal sword.

2- The PUGs will suffer a lot, cause no one will try to do it and have dmg to your equipment.

3- I have a lot of fun with new content cause i love to explore, and while im doing that i die a LOT. This will make people think twice about exploration quests, and they will wait till someone "discover" what to do before jumping in. I did the TITAN more then 20 times before we beated him the first time, and died a countless number of times in there

4- The idea of binding the items is nice, but this will not help those guys like me that have 10 chars. When i find a better weapon then the one im using i normally send the old one to another char, and keep doing this to upgrade my chars. If i bind the stuff i will not be able to do that. Maybe a "bind per account" would solve that.

5- Those fragments could be atained from shatering my stock of shards? would be nice to break a shard in hundreds of pieces

well thos are some of my current thoughts, hope they help with something

[GeneralDiomedes]

It's those type of days where death sux and where this would be further annoyance. Clearly people are dying enough to be upset under the current system or the xp debt thing wouldn't be on your radar

Or many capped characters are suffering little or no consequences.

[Dariun]

I can. My data indicated that there are, on average, under 2 deaths per party per quest. (Less than 0.6 deaths per party per quest if you weight the quests based on which ones are run more often than others. Dreams of Insanity really kicks the average up.)

The feedback I'm receiving here seems to indicate that people are dying a lot more than the data indicates, or think they're dying a lot more than they really are.

I'd be careful with averages. 2 deaths per party per quest might very well be right, but it might mean:

quest 1: 0 deaths
quest 2: 0 deaths
quest 3: 4 deaths
quest 4: 0 deaths
quest 5: 0 deaths
quest 6: 2 deaths
quest 7: 0 deaths
quest 8: 14 deaths
quest 9: 0 deaths
quest 10: 0 deaths

In fact, that is probably what it does mean.

If you can extract the data, what you probably want to look at is what % of the time there are multiple deaths in a quest (if you can find out what % of the time individuals have multiple deaths, that would be even better).

[ArkoHighStar]

Well, there is Unyielding Sovereignty. Though I do think a few more methods could be added, either specific to those quests or just general methods to remove the penalty and/or reset the counter.

yes but most raids have at most 2 or 3 clerics, and that means we should change all our enhancements to support this

I'm curious what you think about my "Reduced or no item damage while getting your First Time bonus" idea. It would at least reduce/remove the item damage you'd take while trying to figure a quest out (as you continue to receive the bonus until the first time you successfully complete the quest).

while I don't think it is a bad idea, I think a use of the repair skill to repair damage while shrining more closely approximates an accurate use of the skill