Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I've already been investigating different ways to handle mid-quest Repair, and I like the idea of high-hardness items (Adamantine, specifically) being partially resistant to the damage inflicted by death.

We'll also make sure something happens with that Reaver switch.

Thanks, both of those items will help. I really like the idea somoene else in this thread had about using the repair skill (probably the most underused skill in the game for non-wf ) to be used to repair equipment damage while shrining the same way repair deals with wf hp.

CoDog, is there a reason haggle doesn't affect repair bills? I have always wondered about this for a while.
is it possible to apply haggle in an attempt to curve the damage bill a little or is there a bigger downside to this that im not seeing?

Always wondered about that one myself.

Sure, nobody likes to see their favorite weapon/armor/whatever take damage, especially permanent damage. But take a bit of time to look at the big picture. Item damage is there to keep the game economy in check, to an extent. You have to take "stuff" out of the game in roughly the same amount as it's coming in, or you have an out of control economy. Up to this point it hasn't really worked, in my opinion, since the influx of uber items is FAR more than what is being taken out of the game. Unfortunately, what we have is exactly that, a totally out of control economy.

Ok Eladrin, be honest with us here... Most of the people here who are onside with the damage on death plan think its because you want us to bind everything to fix the economy. If that is the real reason, and its not just to "find a more fun way to deal with death penalty" then please say so. It would at least allow an honest debate and would be easier to understand. I don't know if I'd agree its the best way to deal with the economy, but that I could at least understand. I don't understand how this is supposed to meet your objectives of creating a more acceptable/fun way to deal with death.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

And nothing wrong with adding a choice for players in the Binding of items or not.

I agree, its a nice option for those that want it. You might regret it later...but hey that's life

[Impaqt]

I think what we are all missing here is that Dying should NOT be "Fun" It should not be used as a tactic. It should not be an acceptable way to get around something in the game.

We're just used to Dying meaning absolutely nothing. No other game has a system like that. We need to move on and accept the fact that we are going to be penalized for dying. We just need to get the penalty just right.

Actually, I think MUCH of the debate could be quashed with one small adjustment......


First Death between shrines has no Consequences.

The Stacking effects start on your second.

[moorewr]

That seems a little too light. Hmmm. My modified suggestion -->

• Each death between shrines causes a stacking "until rest" -1 CON
• 1st Death no other consequences (except item wear)
• 2nd death and thereafter also have the Dolurrh effects per Eladrin

Actually, I think MUCH of the debate could be quashed with one small adjustment......


First Death between shrines has no Consequences.

The Stacking effects start on your second.

[Glin]

I really like the idea someone else in this thread had about using the repair skill (probably the most underused skill in the game for non-wf ) ....

Absolutely

[GrayOldDruid]

Death penalty affects everyone, some people want more, some people want less. I suspect this will be another 49/51 vote in favor of the existing system when compared against the proposed changes. Item damage upon death, I suspect you're going into a much bigger majority of 21/79 in favor of the existing system against the proposed changes.

Maybe a Poll on this subject would be good... (instead of a 'who would win in a fight between.....)

And, YES!! I was so confused when I was unable to use my repair skill to fix my own weapons... I mean, Rangers are supposed to be largely self-sufficient... and I can't sharpen my sword or repair my leather armor??

[Impaqt]

That seems a little too light. Hmmm. My modified suggestion -->

• Each death between shrines causes a stacking "until rest" -1 CON
• 1st Death no other consequences (except item wear)
• 2nd death and thereafter also have the Dolurrh effects per Eladrin

I think the Item wear is the big issue. 10% accross the board seems harsh for the first death to me. The negative levels pretty much mean nothing. The Con damage is basically built into the negative levels already.

The Fear of negative levels Slowing down play will quickly desolve once people realize 1 or 2 negative levels doesnt mena much at all... I doubt theres a person inteh game that hasnt gotten enervated by a beholder, but still managed to kill it.

[MysticTheurge]

Actually, I think MUCH of the debate could be quashed with one small adjustment......

First Death between shrines has no Consequences.

The Stacking effects start on your second.

You could even just put this in on Normal.

And I assume you mean the first death between shrines wouldn't do item damage either.

Edit -- Though that does kind of put it back to being a valid means of traveling around town.

[Impaqt]

Absolutely

+13 Repair Skill items value will go throughthe roof

[UtherSRG]

I've already been investigating different ways to handle mid-quest Repair, and I like the idea of high-hardness items (Adamantine, specifically) being partially resistant to the damage inflicted by death.

We'll also make sure something happens with that Reaver switch.

Yer da best, El!

[tekn0mage]

Maybe a Poll on this subject would be good... (instead of a 'who would win in a fight between.....)

You know, that was just such a waste. I guarantee that turned a lot of people off. Turbine is going to have a hard time convincing people to take the poll thread seriously after a ridiculous topic such as that.

HOWEVER - if they do institute a poll along those lines, I better see some particular questions such as:

" As proposed, are you in favor of, or against the changes to Death Penalty and Item Damage?"

*Strongly Agree
*Somewhat Agree
*Neutral
*Somewhat Disagree
*Strongly Disagree

None of these answers will SKEW the result (such as Turbine likes to do). See the result of "Mod 5 - Worth the Wait?"

Answers such as 'i dont care as long as its quality' only skewed the result of what people ACTUALLY thought of Mod5. If you just would have had a definitive answer of "YES MOD5 WAS WORTH THE WAIT" or "NO IT WAS NOT", I think you would have found a MAJORITY of players felt that it was not.

Since, however, two answers on the poll actually skewed the result (to the tune of greater than 30&#37 you really can't say that the poll discovered anything significant. And that's just not my "anti-Turbine-no-matter-what" undertone, that's truly what happened. Yes, I would really like to see this poll take place. It would shock the devs what people think of these changes. I don't think many are gonna be supportive.

[Impaqt]

You could even just put this in on Normal.

And I assume you mean the first death between shrines wouldn't do item damage either.

Edit -- Though that does kind of put it back to being a valid means of traveling around town.

Using /death for traveling is primarily because of the poor implementation of Word of Recall and teleport. THis is usually used by Caster to go get mana, and if a tank wants to /Death at the end of a quest to get back quicker, I certainly dotn see the issue withthat.... Is a 1 Minute debuff going to change that at all? I dont think so. If your /deathing to go get mana or just get out of the quest quicker, I dont see a problem with that at all.

[MysticTheurge]

" As proposed, are you in favor of, or against the changes to Death Penalty and Item Damage?"

*Strongly Agree
*Somewhat Agree
*Neutral
*Somewhat Disagree
*Strongly Disagree

None of these answers will SKEW the result (such as Turbine likes to do). See the result of "Mod 5 - Worth the Wait?"

Hehe. I Strongly Agree that I am in favor of or against the changes.


But I see what you're getting at, and you're right. I've been fairly disappointed with the impartiality of the monthly polls so far.

I also don't think a poll makes any sense, especially one that general. Give people some time to play with it and then ask specific questions like "Do you feel as though you're repairing your items more or less often than you used to" and "Do you feel as though the new death sickness significantly impacts your style of game play and if so, how" (with options "No" "Yes, in a positive manner" "Yes, in a negative manner").

[Lorien_the_First_One]

+13 Repair Skill items value will go throughthe roof

I think they just did for anyone who reads the forums

lol.. now everyone will be begging the wf wiz in the group to sit next to him instead of the cleric.

I think what we are all missing here is that Dying should NOT be "Fun" It should not be used as a tactic. It should not be an acceptable way to get around something in the game.

I agree with death penalties. I thought that he XP penalty should be higher. I don't have a problem with the debuff replacing the xp penalty. I wouldn't have liked the "rest of quest" debuff that was mentioned as their first attempt but I think the current version is kind of interesting and creative. I don't like the damage to equipment because it creates not just a penality box but a permanent imparment to your enjoyment of the game (loss of cash, possible perm damage/destruction to your equipment).

We're just used to Dying meaning absolutely nothing. No other game has a system like that.

Oh I don't know I'd go that far. Most of the games I've played have no real death penalty. What's the death penalty on a game like Doom for example? If you save every few seconds with a built in hotkey you might just have to refight 1 room if you die. Do you mean other MMOs don't have no death penalty? If so, who cares, I don't play MMOs (before this) for a reason.

[MysticTheurge]

Oh I don't know I'd go that far. Most of the games I've played have no real death penalty. What's the death penalty on a game like Doom for example? If you save every few seconds with a built in hotkey you might just have to refight 1 room if you die. Do you mean other MMOs don't have no death penalty? If so, who cares, I don't play MMOs (before this) for a reason.

To be fair the source-material game, D&D, has a fairly stiff "death penalty" as well.

(I'm well aware of the reasons that DDO needs a lighter death penalty than D&D, I'm just pointing it out.)

[GrayOldDruid]

I don't understand how this is supposed to meet your objectives of creating a more acceptable/fun way to deal with death.

You don't loose XP - there is no Permanent loss of ANYTHING. Just a little time and some looted-coin will fix it all. And you can spend that time in-game.

With XP loss, those who are not capped and actually care about XP, permanently loose hours of gameplay. Either you run another quest and erase the debt with that, thereby actually loosing that xp forever, or you log out and don't play for 1 hour per 100 xp (or so, that is about what it seems like the recovery rate is, but not sure) and 'heal' the debt - and if you are higher level, healing 2,800 XP takes 28 Hours... loosing game time.
Either way, XP loss is something you NEVER really get back.

With the new system, you get it all back and loose maybe 5 min and a little coinage. Mabye 8 min if you count repair time.

Equipment is sturdy, they've decreased repair costs, decreased permanent damage possibilities, so unless you die on purpose a lot, just be a bit more careful and play better teamwork and don't die so much. You can always pick up more equipment. You can always pick up more coin from looting. Plus, if you are really worried about that one item taking enough (decreased chance) permanent damage that it is destroyed in six months, bind it and you don't run that risk.

Old system the Death Penalty was Permanent and non-recoverable. New system the Death Penalty is easily recoverable and 'wears off' a lot quicker.
(I would be fine with the debuff lasting longer even)

New Death Penalty is MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH better than loosing XP.

[GeneralDiomedes]

You could even just put this in on Normal.

And I assume you mean the first death between shrines wouldn't do item damage either.

Edit -- Though that does kind of put it back to being a valid means of traveling around town.

From the WOW FAQ

Why not just have the old death penalty where players were cursed with a debuff and appeared at their bind location?

Mainly because this method operated as a free teleport; once someone wanted to go back to town, they would find the nearest monster or lake and promptly die in it. Not only did this not work as a death penalty, but it created lots of bizarre behavior in regards to transportation in the world.

[tekn0mage]

Yeah I'm really not buying the "death as a tactic" argument any more. With the changes to /death, there isn't a case where dying is a tactic any longer.

At least not a widely used one. Making any change using this argument any more is just way, way misguided.

[Impaqt]

Oh I don't know I'd go that far. Most of the games I've played have no real death penalty. What's the death penalty on a game like Doom for example? If you save every few seconds with a built in hotkey you might just have to refight 1 room if you die. Do you mean other MMOs don't have no death penalty? If so, who cares, I don't play MMOs (before this) for a reason.

I should calrify.

I absolutely meant MMO's.

What happens in a Single player game on your own personal desktop is up to you. In those kinds of games, if youdotn want a challenge, you can ususally just turn onteh developer "God Mode" and walk through it even.....

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

• At the moment of death, all non-stacking, equipped items that your character is wearing will take a percentage of item wear. Each item will take damage equal to (Character Level * ¾, round down, maximum 10)% of their original maximum durability, or:
  

  1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9    10    11    12    13    14+
  0%    1%    2%    3%    3%    4%    5%    6%    6%    7%    8%    9%    9%    10%

Note: All values, durations, and effects are still subject to change prior to the release of Module Six. Risia feedback is especially welcome!

Eladrin,

Not that I really want to be the one to suggest yet another game-altering change to Skills (like the Balance Changes), but isn't this where the Repair Skill should really come into play? Yes, I know some will say, "But you are dead"... but I would counter that the Repair Skill should allow you the knowledge of how to maintain your items, even when getting killed by something, or when recovering from death, and that should translate into a reduction of the Death Damage dealt to your items. Repair is an INT-based Skill, after all!

What if the Repair skill were added to the equation, to something like:

((Character Level * ¾, round down, maximum 10) - (Repair Skill / 4) )%
This would basically allow every 4 Ranks of Repair to reduce 1% off the death damage... very simliar to Haggle, I believe?

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I also think the formula should be changed slightly, as it does not properly take into account Material & Hardness, as well as I think it should be damage based on CURRENT Maximum Durability, not Original, as there is no way to repair Permanent Damage, nor any way to mitigate it prior to this upcoming Mod.

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Additionally, as stated by others, the Reaver Raid, as there is no way to control if/when/how many times you get rezzed, I think these quests should either suspend the Death Damage Penalty, *OR* implement a confirmation box, so I can choose when, or if, I take the Rez.


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I think many people are missing one interesting point. As a Cleric, I obviously try to keep the party alive at all times, but there comes times when the Cleric must choose WHO stays up, and who must be allowed to die, to focus on the 'key' elements of the party. This penalty change creates an interesting dilemna for the Cleric. The "Conventional" wisdom, as been to let the Arcanes die, and keep the Melees alive (other Clerics are 1st priority, of course)... but this may change that. If an Arcane dies, when he is ressed, he has a Negative Level, reducing his SP pool, and casting ability for 1-5 minutes... this could be detrimental to the party. Additionally, while many casters do not wear very many expensive items, they do have some, and the older practice of letting the Arcanes die, and rezzing them later, could have major impact on the Caster's equipment. My concern is that some players may "take it out" on the Clerics for the item damage due to death... I doubt it, but it could happen.

I am not arguing against the change, as it is going to happen. But I wanted to bring up some potential positive improvements, and a genuine concern on the change.