Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[GeneralDiomedes]

Oh I was hoping he didn't mean Mournlands (I too assumed he was).
Without going into many details, let's just say I have very little faith in the beta testers there.

They decided that a one minute debuff was better than one that lasted the entire quest. Not good enough for you?

[Qzipoun]

I know this has been mentioned already but I strongly think death penalty and item wear should not be related to one another in any way whatsoever.

If a mage hits my character with finger of death or PK, there isn't even any logical reason for items to get damaged. I just don't see why death would equal automatic damage while you can fight for a whole hour and not get damaged at all, makes no sense to link the two together.

[Riorik]

I'd have to say I'm a bit concerned with the changes to the death penalty.

My reasons have to do with the fun factor. I'm not really against there being a price for stupidity, but the changes go way beyond the current system. Today, at worst, you're inconvenienced for a short period when you have to re-earn the experience. However, the whole damage to items portion smacks of as system really intended to drive the economy - and the need to do the grind.

This just doesn't strike me as fun at all - I cannot fathom how this will be considered a positive addition to the game system. Some players are going to love this - but I sincerely doubt I'll be one of them. Admittedly, some of my characters already run with a significant amount of bound equipment -- but some don't.

From time to time I get off my posterior to re-balance the equipment -- get a few new items and perhaps there's a better way to mix up the equipment of my seven high level characters...usually by re-working the equipment of several characters simultaneously so as to not leave any lacking and to improve at least one. This change will encourage me to bind some of the items that are always in use...and that'll limit future choices.

Nax

quick edit - noticed I wasn't very clear.
I don't really mind the changes that impose a temporary penalty on the players. The long term impact, however, seem clearly to be part of an agenda to address Turbine concerns that are unrelated and unlinkable to death. Ways to encourage players to want to grind merely to maintain the status of their characters. It's a lot (no, exactly) like how the Dragonscale armors started out needing 10 relics to repair (and then dropped to 5 and in the future, 3) - they realized it "sucked the life" out of playing the game. Once a game starts to feel like work - where's the fun?

[ArkoHighStar]

They decided that a one minute debuff was better than one that lasted the entire quest. Not good enough for you?

Yes they also tested the Titan, the demon queen, the Reaver and the Abbott and obviously felt they were ready as well. The feedback they seem t be giving the devs was people want more puzzles trust us they love it. All those raids came out broken in one manner or another and had to be nerfed or fixed or something else done to it to make them playable.

[ice33b]

Paladins are indeed essentially immune to penalties to saves vs. fear, as they're just flat out immune to fear. They're not immune to temporary negative levels though.

The temporary negative levels from the trauma of death can only be removed by effects that can specifically remove death penalties - at the moment, Unyielding Sovereignty is the only such effect.

Using that same line of thought, since WF are immune to negative levels, I would assume that they would also be immune to that part of the death penalty, correct? I mean, if Paladins get to keep their fear immunity, WF should be allowed to keep their negative level immunity as well.

[BlueLightBandit]

I've always been a pretty "decent" guy when it came to pugs, as in I'd put up with a lot of stuff just to get the quest done. I've been known the throw a few hundred heal scrolls at a problem group, just to be a nice guy.

Unfortunately, what these changes mean to me is that this kind of "nice guy" behavior is probably going to disappear quick. It's one thing to laugh and joke around while playing this game... it's something totally different to criss-cross aimlessly through a quest or follow blindly repeating the same mistakes about weapons and armor or which mobs to attack or what strategy to use when.

The simple change that will happen with my playstyle is simple. I'm simply not going to be able to accept bad groups any more. Whereas before I could recall and regroup after a wipe or drag stones back before... now I'm simply going to bow out and drop group gracefully. I will probably pug less, and be more willing to simply leave party when someone immature or a little too crazy for my playstyle enters the group.

Basically they made death at all levels mean something. It's true, it's what the purist players wanted, and the fun-time players didn't. I don't have a problem with actually suffering a consequence from dying. Heck one dev even stated pretty clearly that dying should not be a viable tactic... I kinda agree with that concept.

Of course my guild will see a whole lot more of me, as those are people I trust. But pugs... well I just became much less of a nice person in pugs because of this. And I'm not quite sure what I think about that yet. Maybe time will tell.

[MrCow]

since WF are immune to negative levels, I would assume that they would also be immune to that part of the death penalty, correct?

As living constructs Warforged are immune to energy drain. Warforged are not immune to necromantic spells or death effects. This does not classify as energy drain so Warforged shouldn't be immune to this form of negative levels (much like they are not immune to the penalty for using axiomatic/anarchic weapons).

[Qzipoun]

Another reason why this change is a bad one:

Dying now hurts the WHOLE party as even after you get the person who died back up, they're not at 100%. Before a death would mean death penalty to that person alone, once they are rezed and healed it's all good. Now, however, once they are rezed and healed they need special attention because they are weaker then everyone else.

[Qzipoun]

Yes they also tested the Titan, the demon queen, the Reaver and the Abbott and obviously felt they were ready as well. The feedback they seem t be giving the devs was people want more puzzles trust us they love it. All those raids came out broken in one manner or another and had to be nerfed or fixed or something else done to it to make them playable.

QFT. Sometimes I'm surprised at the stuff that gets through private testing. (In terms of it being broken and/or completely off track compared to what people want)

[moorewr]

Another reason why this change is a bad one:

Dying now hurts the WHOLE party as even after you get the person who died back up, they're not at 100%. Before a death would mean death penalty to that person alone, once they are rezed and healed it's all good. Now, however, once they are rezed and healed they need special attention because they are weaker then everyone else.

For 1-5 minutes, and 5 minutes is only for the 11-14 set...

When we discussed this with Eladrin back in September, several of us voiced concern about timer debuffs. Do you gimp along or will power gamers announce they will be AFK for 1-5 minutes? Both are not fun.

Up thread I suggested a) the debuffs are too light a penalty as is, and b) leave them as is but add a stacking -1 CON per death removable by true resurrection or the Undying Call (this was just before I was lead to the Guillotine ).

I'm excited to test this all out. On Risia now now now!

[gpk]

Yes they also tested the Titan, the demon queen, the Reaver and the Abbott and obviously felt they were ready as well. The feedback they seem t be giving the devs was people want more puzzles trust us they love it. All those raids came out broken in one manner or another and had to be nerfed or fixed or something else done to it to make them playable.

Absolutely correct.

They decided that a one minute debuff was better than one that lasted the entire quest. Not good enough for you?

It's not a 1 minute debuff, it's a 1 minute debuff /death /rest (raids=no rest).
Not if they didn't consier what a multi-minute penalty would mean to pugs, cusual players and especially how it would affect high level content and raids. If anything recent suggest that there is a serious weak link or two in the testing chain. I'd hate for more and more changes to be implemented without realizing the full consequences.

P.S. If you were fear immune due to an item or a Greater Hero, that acquired fear immunity won't vanish correct?

[SableShadow]

Unfortunately, what these changes mean to me is that this kind of "nice guy" behavior is probably going to disappear quick.

There are some shades of this already with the changes to the raiding dynamics and the structure of some quests.

Personnally, I like that death would now have some sort of penalty at the cap; discussing tactics before entering a quest or engaging a heavy encounter would become a more common event.

However, I already see folks wanting to stack parties with 'useful' classes (i.e. quest specific brute force).

This change would probably increase the trend.

[ArkoHighStar]

For 1-5 minutes, and 5 minutes is only for the 11-14 set...

When we discussed this with Eladrin back in September, several of us voiced concern about timer debuffs. Do you gimp along or will power gamers announce they will be AFK for 1-5 minutes? Both are not fun.

Up thread I suggested a) the debuffs are too light a penalty as is, and b) leave them as is but add a stacking -1 CON per death removable by true resurrection or the Undying Call (this was just before I was lead to the Guillotine ).

I'm excited to test this all out. On Risia now now now!

no it will be 11-16 so basically if we go to lvl 20 we will spend half the game at the max penalty. Every time there is a level increase there is a fundamental shift as to where the mid level are. Right now they sit at 7-9 with 11 being the magic number. So basically starting at lvl 8 essentially the mid point of the game for lvl 16 end cap we will be 80% down the road for max death penalty. Say we get to level 20 level 10-11 will be the new mid point yet you will have reached max death penalty for half of your characters levels. Another example of Turbine failing to look ahead to a lvl 20 end game.

[Eladrin]

Say we get to level 20 level 10-11 will be the new mid point yet you will have reached max death penalty for half of your characters levels. Another example of Turbine failing to look ahead to a lvl 20 end game.

Actually, that was completely intentional, and based entirely on the full planned level progression. It certainly wasn't planned for level 14 characters, considering it's coming out in a module in which we're raising the level cap to 16.

If you were fear immune due to an item or a Greater Hero, that acquired fear immunity won't vanish correct?

Greater Heroism will drop if you die, but you can get it recast on you. If you're immune to fear, then the penalty to saves vs. fear won't mean much. That portion of the death penalty is mostly flavor, as I don't really expect it to come up too often.

It's not a 1 minute debuff, it's a 1 minute debuff /death /rest (raids=no rest).
Not if they didn't consier what a multi-minute penalty would mean to pugs, cusual players and especially how it would affect high level content and raids. If anything recent suggest that there is a serious weak link or two in the testing chain. I'd hate for more and more changes to be implemented without realizing the full consequences.

Resting will reset your count to zero, so it's a 1 minute debuff per death that decays pretty quickly. If you only die once between shrines, the negative level will be almost gone by the time you finish rebuffing. If you die five times between shrines, well, it'll admittedly be a bit slower to go away.

Some raids (Tempest Spine and the Module 6 Raid Zone) have opportunities for rest, as they're not single encounters.

They decided that a one minute debuff was better than one that lasted the entire quest.

Yes, originally we experimented with the lowest phase of the death debuffs being "until rest". We weren't happy with the results.

I don't really mind the changes that impose a temporary penalty on the players. The long term impact, however, seem clearly to be part of an agenda to address Turbine concerns that are unrelated and unlinkable to death. Ways to encourage players to want to grind merely to maintain the status of their characters. It's a lot (no, exactly) like how the Dragonscale armors started out needing 10 relics to repair (and then dropped to 5 and in the future, 3) - they realized it "sucked the life" out of playing the game. Once a game starts to feel like work - where's the fun?

We actually thought that by removing permanent damage from bound objects that it would have an opposite effect - you'll never have to worry about your (dragonscale armor / vorpal sword / whatever) getting destroyed over time, where before they would eventually decay to uselessness. Collecting Khyber Dragonshard Fragments is not going to be a grind, I guarantee that.

Monetary costs due to repairing equipment may or may not be higher - we cut repair costs and permanent damage rates across the board because you might be repairing more often. If you don't die often, everything is intended to be a positive change, even if you never bind an object.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Monetary costs due to repairing equipment may or may not be higher - we cut repair costs and permanent damage rates across the board because you might be repairing more often. If you don't die often, everything is intended to be a positive change, even if you never bind an object.

Still...if one of your stated priorities was dealing with people being unhappy with equipment damage...why would you introduce a new and arbitrary method of inflicting damage? You are leaving your D&D foundation, leaving behind any common sense explaination of the damage, and just doing something for punative reasons. That's not fun and it goes directly against what you say you were trying to accomplish. The debuff is fine, but the punative damage has to go.

[CrazySamaritan]

Still...if one of your stated priorities was dealing with people being unhappy with equipment damage...why would you introduce a new and arbitrary method of inflicting damage? You are leaving your D&D foundation, leaving behind any common sense explanation of the damage, and just doing something for punitive reasons. That's not fun and it goes directly against what you say you were trying to accomplish. The debuff is fine, but the punitive damage has to go.

DON'T DIE!!!!!


Seriously, you cannot expect me to believe that you're dying 9+ times in a quest accidentally, do you? You're either in a quest that you need to recall and regroup from, or you're using your ability to /death to pull some trick. Last time I died more than five times in a row, I was trying to do INVADERS! on elite, and I had been forced to recall already to replenish my spell points (never got the chest, either).

Would you rather getting 4 hp as a first level sorcerer, and requiring the event of a 9th level cleric to come by and cast Raise Dead so you can lose 2 CON? I think you'd rather re-roll. How about losing an entire level, permanently? Or several, if the cleric can raise you?


Turbine has chosen instead to grant you an artifact that can raise you an infinite number of times in your quests, along with clerics who know when you die, AND "forgive me, your honours, may it please the court" decided to break how the raise dead spells resurrect you. You want to complain about losing some gold instead of XP? You want to moan/*****/gripe because your DM would rather see you lose some gold, which is infinite, than some XP which is limited? It sounds to me, that what you want, "forgive me, your honours, may it please the court" What you want, SIR, is to have everything handed to you upon a silver platter, "forgive me, your honours, may it please the court" so that you DON'T have to make the effort to 'win' through normal means.

"forgive me, your honours, may it please the court", I need some KotDt to finish this.

[GlassCannon]

DON'T DIE!!!!!


Seriously, you cannot expect me to believe that you're dying 9+ times in a quest accidentally, do you?

Yes.

Especially newbies.

Particularly in parties with incompetent players in the Healing role.

The new changes should kill just a little more of the population, but add "realism" to those that keep demanding it here on the forums, despite the fact that most of the actual players in-game do not mind(did I say they don't mind? They really don't) the current setup of XP loss, as opposed to this rather extremely(did I mention obscene? How about ridiculous?) irritating method.

I, among many others, utterly loathe debuffs, particularly Enervate(the DM's way of saying "Get the f*** out of my house, and I never want to see you again, your character is dead").

[Havok34]

So lets do the math.

Normally I was repairing 1-3 items after a quest. Usually with 1-5 pts of damage. Rarely did I let items get hammered before repairing.

So now if you die. You will have to repair minimum of 14 items and 10 percent damage to each item.

Let's say it is 1,000gp to repair each item at 5 pts damage. 3 items 3,000gp.

Now you have 14 items with (lets see, mimium durability on any of my equipped items: 50 with several items in the 100-200 range). So those 14 items may rate 2,000gp each? average. 10 pts of damage each. 28,000gp even with 25% discount I am still around 21,000gp spent to repair.

Repair prices are as I said made up. But the idea is still the same. twice the damage average 10pts vs 5 pts. and almost 5 times the items.

Tell me Eladrin how this will be less expensive?

[GeneralDiomedes]

Repair prices are as I said made up. But the idea is still the same. twice the damage average 10pts vs 5 pts. and almost 5 times the items.

Tell me Eladrin how this will be less expensive?

They pushed costs onto the death penalty. For some, this may work out to be less expensive overall. For others, more expensive.

[Glin]

We'll be watching for more discussion on this topic as the fine tuning is done for Module 6 - Risia is all packaged up and getting prepped for patching.

There have been some great discussions in this thread. We expect to get a lot of different opinions. There is a wonderful blend of play styles in-game and I think that speaks to one of the successes of DDO. These improvements have been thought out extensively. I have seen a lot of positive and negative reactions on the forums, much like the discussions we have had ourselves for a very long time. That said, we will be watching for real play-test feedback, in the end, it absolutely matters what the real game experience is.

Changing something this intrinsic to game play is not being done haphazardly. The long term result of the XP penalty, and how it has evolved since launch, has proven to be unhealthy to game play and how players react to it. These changes should not be a shock to the game play experience. I don't have expectations that this will solve the bigger issue in one module - to elaborate, the result of this change will strengthen the community, quest experience, and the economy over time. DDO has grown immensely since launch and we have huge passionate thoughtful long term plans to continue to improve upon it.