Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[GeneralDiomedes]

I guess I should post some to keep up the post count war?

I don't see any problem with this new penalty. Obviously XP debt was a joke for capped characters. Debuffs and equipment damage are well established precedents, so I don't know where the people threatening to leave are going to go. Nowhere I guess.

Up to 10% item wear (or whatever it is) per death is totally manageable, as are negative levels for a few minutes. Maybe .. just maybe .. the equipment damage is there to make you stop and think before you croak for the 10th time in a quest. Some incredible example I read where someone died 10 times in 30 seconds is not usual .. for anybody.

Lag deaths .. I can count on a single hand the number of lag deaths I have had in two years. Falling bug deaths, same thing. Neither are significant enough to even attempt to account for it (how could you anyhow?).

I mean, how many times are you people dying in a typical quest? Maybe I really don't want to know. But know that I've spent my fair share pugging .. and maybe it's not as often as you claim.

[Pellegro]

Constructive criticism is permitted so long as it is respectful to other users as well as the developers. Praise of something you really like is acceptable as long as it is also respectful to other users as well as the developers.

yay. having the same rules of respect apply to your "internal" customers as your "external" was long overdue here. I hope you enforce this rule.

[Ron]

Wow. I agree with the poster who you are belittling. He is concerned and rightly so as this could be a major change to the game. I would like you not to close down this thread and/or continue with your name calling. You should probably offer an apology, but I doubt you will. As other posters have noted this should be examined carefully, tested and feedback provided. Has Turbine made their decision? Probably yes, but if the players hate the change they will be forced to re-evalute and alter it...

??

I neither belittled nor name-called. So no, I will not apologize, for I see nothing that I said that warrents it. I read his entire post, and made an honest assessment of it as I saw it. I could have gone over his arguments point for point, but I didn't think it was needed. As far as I could tell it all boiled down to one thing, which is what I said. Perhaps you don't agree, and that's cool. Show me something I said that was out of line and I'd be more than happy to apologize for it. In actual fact, I was the one who was called "an uber-elitist" (which is absolutely absurd if you know anything about me at all, I've been nothing if not the defender of the casual player during my career here on the forums, feel free to look up my posting history if you don't believe me).

[EDIT]
Actually, in reading over my comments, I did use the term "Whinging". It wasn't meant to be insulting, I just thought it was a somewhat funny word to use. But I can see how it can be taken as belittling the post. So I offer my apologies for using that word, it was ill thought on my part.
[/EDIT]

[ArkoHighStar]

Aye, this is true of all of us, I suppose. If the game becomes something we don't like, we move on. I, for instance, dislike the outdoor adventure areas (too much of a MMOG grind system, not much of a D&D system in my view), but most people seem to like them, and they aren't enough of a detrator for me to leave the game (by a long shot!, hehe). So I tolerate them, or more often, ignore them.

This is a system you don't think you will like. I can understand that. It's a system I think I will like (at least more than the current XP debt system anyway). Not in a "Yay I died!" kind of way, but in a "I think this is good for the game" kinda way. But, I could be wrong, perhaps I WON'T like it when it actually gets here. Perhaps I will dislike it enough to make the game unplayable to me. If so, I'll head on to the next thing. It happens

Or maybe once it's here there will be aspects of it I don't like and maybe I can be a part of getting them changed through feedback here on the forums. Or maybe you will. Maybe we just need to see what happens.

Yes but the difference betwen outdoor areas and this is that you can avoid them and not miss a beat, and continue to play your game the way you want to play it, and those who like outdoor areas can go out and spend countless hours counting the butterflies if they want to, and you would never see them and they would never see you. This change is global and says play this way. I doubt you would be happy if Turbine decided tomorow they were doing away with quests and will produce only outdoor areas, because they determined people like outdoor areas better and do not enjoy the stress of having to complete a quest.

[MysticTheurge]

I will try it, and I don't expect them to change it because I complain about it.

Not necessarily, but if you make a good enough case for it's problems, offer a feasible alternative that works within the system they've come up with and convince enough other people to support the idea, they might change it. They've done this in the past in similar scenarios.

Just for example, while I like the concept of the system overall, I'm not convinced that the item damage percentages are right or that the penalties and/or their durations shouldn't be adjusted. If you were to make a good case for why those should be tweaked downward after playing with the system for a while, I could be convinced that such a change would be a good idea, as (I imagine) could many of the new systems other advocates.

Once you've got "both sides" of the argument agreeing that the system needs to be changed, Turbine is generally pretty good about listening.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Yes but the difference betwen outdoor areas and this is that you can avoid them and not miss a beat, and continue to play your game the way you want to play it, and those who like outdoor areas can go out and spend countless hours counting the butterflies if they want to, and you would never see them and they would never see you. This change is global and says play this way.

Are you saying that the new death penalty should be optional? Again, any perceived dictation in play style is due to your own perception. I'm sure you can go on playing the same way you did before. This has been tested internally and severely cut back from the original proposal. If they made it any milder than this, they may as well eliminate all penalties entirely.

[Pellegro]

I want to echo MT's comment to Arko. .... Please dont' feel you're not being heard even if they dont' change it. Just as I won't take it personally if they do ....

As you know, they come up wiht an idea. They play test it. THEN they decide whether or not to put it in.

Well ... here they come with a big change.

I think we should just try to realize we haven't tried it yet and give it some time. If it sucks, I'll be back here in no time with you saying "I WAS WRONG ... BAD IDEA" ... and I trust that they will listen to us as they generally have in the past.

The point is, don't get frustrated now cuz none of us knows how it will be ... Lets discuss how we think it WILL be, let them know how we think it SHOULD be, accept the solution they choose (knowing that they really are trying to please us as the customers), and then if it stinks, complain. If the complaints go unnoticed and you aren't having fun otherwise .... then move along! That is, after all, the ultimate in feedback that you don't like the direction the game is going. But you owe it to yourself in light of how much you love this game to at least try it out first.

The best example of this was the enhancement system. Heather was dead on right on that (IMO). I was firmly against it and voiced my opinion strongly that the new enhancement system was ****. Well ... I WAS WRONG!!! Now, I think its really awesome. I love the flexibility it gives me ... and how I can go from specialization X to Y every 3 days for minimal $$$, and how there are real choices (under old system, there were just the "must have" options).

anyway .... the upside of all this is that apparently, lots of people love this game! and thats a good thing ... off to GH =0

[ArkoHighStar]

I guess I should post some to keep up the post count war?

I don't see any problem with this new penalty. Obviously XP debt was a joke for capped characters. Debuffs and equipment damage are well established precedents, so I don't know where the people threatening to leave are going to go. Nowhere I guess.

Up to 10% item wear (or whatever it is) per death is totally manageable, as are negative levels for a few minutes. Maybe .. just maybe .. the equipment damage is there to make you stop and think before you croak for the 10th time in a quest. Some incredible example I read where someone died 10 times in 30 seconds is not usual .. for anybody.

Lag deaths .. I can count on a single hand the number of lag deaths I have had in two years. Falling bug deaths, same thing. Neither are significant enough to even attempt to account for it (how could you anyhow?).

I mean, how many times are you people dying in a typical quest? Maybe I really don't want to know. But know that I've spent my fair share pugging .. and maybe it's not as often as you claim.

Most capped players generally don't die when doing familiar quests, but try learning a raid when it first comes out, and you don't want to wait till someone shows you how to do it. The group that beat the titan before they changed it went through 100 rez scrolls to do it. That feat would never have happened as all of them them would have broken equipment and no way to leave and come back. Turbine has designed raids to kill you over and over again till you get used to it and know what do do. A dragon run on elite can easily have 2 or 3 wipes and regroups before velah finally goes down. So yes hardcore players tend to die a lot more because those players tend to do things first, blazing the way for more casual players to do it later on.

[ArkoHighStar]

Are you saying that the new death penalty should be optional? Again, any perceived dictation in play style is due to your own perception. I'm sure you can go on playing the same way you did before. This has been tested internally and severely cut back from the original proposal. If they made it any milder than this, they may as well eliminate all penalties entirely.

no what I am saying is that he is comparing outdoor areas a portion of the game that is completly optional to something that will affect all players

[ArkoHighStar]

I want to echo MT's comment to Arko. .... Please dont' feel you're not being heard even if they dont' change it. Just as I won't take it personally if they do ....

As you know, they come up wiht an idea. They play test it. THEN they decide whether or not to put it in.

Well ... here they come with a big change.

I think we should just try to realize we haven't tried it yet and give it some time. If it sucks, I'll be back here in no time with you saying "I WAS WRONG ... BAD IDEA" ... and I trust that they will listen to us as they generally have in the past.

The point is, don't get frustrated now cuz none of us knows how it will be ... Lets discuss how we think it WILL be, let them know how we think it SHOULD be, accept the solution they choose (knowing that they really are trying to please us as the customers), and then if it stinks, complain. If the complaints go unnoticed and you aren't having fun otherwise .... then move along! That is, after all, the ultimate in feedback that you don't like the direction the game is going. But you owe it to yourself in light of how much you love this game to at least try it out first.

The best example of this was the enhancement system. Heather was dead on right on that (IMO). I was firmly against it and voiced my opinion strongly that the new enhancement system was ****. Well ... I WAS WRONG!!! Now, I think its really awesome. I love the flexibility it gives me ... and how I can go from specialization X to Y every 3 days for minimal $$$, and how there are real choices (under old system, there were just the "must have" options).

anyway .... the upside of all this is that apparently, lots of people love this game! and thats a good thing ... off to GH =0

I think mod 6 going live will be the deciding factor as testing will be artificial, and will be consequence free. It will be only then when people realize that they either like it or hate it. I actually was a supporter of the enhancement system changes, because I saw that flexibility and knew it would make my chracters better. Iguess time will tell and I will post after I have done some testing

[gpk]

This has been tested internally and severely cut back from the original proposal.

Really, please elaborate.

[ArkoHighStar]

Really, please elaborate.

Eladrin alluded to it in one of his posts, most new content appears on the mournlands server first where a select few get to play test it for Turbine and give feedback

[Ciaran]

Woohoo! I'm a member of the uber elite clique! Do I get a badge? Is there a secret handshake?

I didn't quote your whole post because it was all based on the same thing. You are upset because in the near future you will have a death penalty, whereas now you do not. I thought the bit I quoted summed that up pretty well.

Seems to me you are making assumptions and have pre-conceived notions about why he's upset. In my experience this makes it hard if not impossible to see where another person is coming from. Why don't you try reading the fine print, as it were, of his post.

I personally have two level capped characters and I'm concerned with some of these changes (the item damage changes and the potential repercussions in exploring new content or getting a group to do old content). People are bringing up valid arguments against this - it'd be wise not to dismiss them out of hand because we think we know why their griping.

[gpk]

Eladrin alluded to it in one of his posts, most new content appears on the mournlands server first where a select few get to play test it for Turbine and give feedback

Oh I was hoping he didn't mean Mournlands (I too assumed he was).
Without going into many details, let's just say I have very little faith in the beta testers there.

[Pellegro]

Iguess time will tell and I will post after I have done some testing

I think thats the best Turbine can ask for. If its junk, we tell them. If they ignore us, we leave. Then we find another game, while they're stuck looking for new jobs.

Its good to be the customer ....

[ArkoHighStar]

Oh I was hoping he didn't mean Mournlands (I too assumed he was).
Without going into many details, let's just say I have very little faith in the beta testers there.

as do I

[Sillius]

Thanks for the update! Really liked the new system. Can't wait.

Recently, I just cancelled my subscriptions and then renewed again cos I found that I still love this game too much.
Then was hit with 3 days of downtime... lol ( I play in Asian time zones so it's three days of no DDO for me.. darn should have renewed 3 days later ).

Anyways, playing in this time zone meant that sometimes it's difficult to get groups. So to me, this encourages soloing/exploring or go in a quest with less than a full group ( i don't mind but some ppl do )

I like the fact that you only risk dmg to equipments when you're in a bad group or you want to try to learn a map or dungeon.
Not having to worry about making up the xp debts by spending time looking for groups doing some well known quest.
I think it's a nice enough deterrent to discourage ppl from /death or zerging... because of the equipment dmg and debuffs.
And also the option for ppl to bind things which they really love and wouldn't want to risk any perm dmg.

All in all, it' great news for me.

* hmm.. maybe a good place to farm those shards for binding stuffs are in smugglers warehouse.. since we have to break all the barrels anyway. And there's lot of breakables

[Ron]

* hmm.. maybe a good place to farm those shards for binding stuffs are in smugglers warehouse.. since we have to break all the barrels anyway. And there's lot of breakables

Heh, or Kobold's new ringleader. There's something like 250 breakables in there

[Sillius]

omg.. you actually remember the no of breakables? hehe...

[Hendrik]

I miss the other DP thread.