Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[MysticTheurge]

another potential problem here....

I remember when I could evade in heavy armour. If I had to bind my +5MFP to my evasion fighter and to protect it. then the change was made to evasion after I bound the Item I would be more than Mad as a Hatter. As you recall there was even an interview saying that Evasion wasn't going to be fixed to PnP rules...

If such a situation were to occur again, you'd probably have a legitimate argument to get them to allow you to unbind a certain number of items.

But honestly, that seems kind of like a "cross that bridge when we get to it" problem.

[maddmatt70]

So when the new content comes out with the new mod and we are all waiting with anticipation and glee to run the new quests what will be running but older content until we get enough rocks to bind our gear.. lol.. Gotta love this game...

[moorewr]

some times it is not griefing it is bad luck that you got raised as the stormreaver ran over you. So now you have to abandon to save your equipment, well there goes any xp or rewards, great system indeed

People die in the Reaver raid?

[Hendrik]

Few facts on the new DP we seem to miss;

# Bound items will no longer have a chance of taking permanent damage when repaired.
# The chance for permanent damage to be inflicted on unbound items when repaired has been halved.
# Item repair costs have been reduced for all items by 25%.
# At the moment of death, all non-stacking, equipped items that your character is wearing will take a percentage of item wear. Each item will take damage equal to (Character Level * ¾, round down, maximum 10)% of their original maximum durability.



Our Bound items take no damage, our unbound items will take 50% less perm damage then we do now, a 25% cut in repair costs, and a max of 10% damage to our worn items when we die. This is win-win. Add in Item Defense for the classes that have it available and your set.

Since Beta, I may have seen 2-3 people recall out of a Quest to get repairs done - and that is because they forgot to do it before we started. IMO, recalling out for repairs is a non-issue.

[Kavel_Havae]

Do we have to bring that one up again? And then the person who said that stopped working at Turbine. So is Turbine bound to his comment months previous to his leaving months after he left? No...

I only bring it up to make an illustration of one scenario where the meta-game mechanic was under a major overhaul. And a big no to being bound by it... it's turbines' game

with the very adult conversation we are having here, and knowing that the devs do look at these threads... It may or may not on their radar as a future concern if another change could cause some future player grief.

[MysticTheurge]

Our Bound items take no damage, our unbound items will take 50% less perm damage then we do now, a 25% cut in repair costs, and a max of 10% damage to our worn items when we die. This is win-win. Add in Item Defense for the classes that have it available and your set.

Bound items take no permanent damage, they still take normal damage.

And item defense won't affect item damage from death (per Eladrin in this thread).

Other than that you seem right on target.

[Kavel_Havae]

But honestly, that seems kind of like a "cross that bridge when we get to it" problem.

/agree with ya there Keith Baker-David

[MysticTheurge]

Keith Baker-David

[Hendrik]

Bound items take no permanent damage, they still take normal damage.

And item defense won't affect item damage from death (per Eladrin in this thread).

Other than that you seem right on target.

Got me before I could fix my typo's!

:P

I added Defense because, as I understand the new system, we have normal wear and wear from death. Normal wear can be dealt with via the Defense line. Now this is where I am a little confused MT, maybe you can help...

Will 'normal wear' happen on our bound items? Or are the only damaged via death? So, for example, could my armor take damage due to normal wear and up to 10% damage from death? Follow me MT?

I 'think' the answer is normal wear happens in addition to wear from death.

Am I making any sense or should I just pack it up and hit the pub?

[Kavel_Havae]

I added Defense because, as I understand the new system, we have normal wear and wear from death. Normal wear can be dealt with via the Defense line. Now this is where I am a little confused MT, maybe you can help...

Will 'normal wear' happen on our bound items? Or are the only damaged via death? So, for example, could my armor take damage due to normal wear and up to 10% damage from death? Follow me MT?

I 'think' the answer is normal wear happens in addition to wear from death.

Am I making any sense or should I just pack it up and hit the pub?

Normal Wear will occur the DP is in addition to the normal rate of wear.

yeah go hit the pub!!! and have a couple for me

[Hendrik]

TY Kavel.

All clear now - time to go fuzz it all up!

/offtothepub!

[Lorien_the_First_One]

nope after 10 deaths your item is destroyed if no repaired.

"At the moment of death, all non-stacking, equipped items that your character is wearing will take a percentage of item wear. Each item will take damage equal to (Character Level * ¾, round down, maximum 10)% of their original maximum durability" -Eladrin

not 10% of the remaining total... so right now if you have a perm damage item that has 50% of it original durability, 5 deaths and its broke.

Hmm...that's a good catch. Ok E, what's the logic here? Shouldn't it at least only damage based on its current or at least current maxium durability? I mean if an item is at 10% and you die its broke...not good.

This can also be used for griefing as well think about the stormreaver raid and what happens when you die and how you get resurrected and how easy it is to die again, and how you have no control over if you get rezzed or not

Oh no...I never even thought of this...I once was in an Abbot raid where someone was spamming the res lever even though everyone died on reentry because the eles were hanging out at the res spot... I think I died 10 times in 30 seconds. Lets see, how much damage to my equip would I have taken? Oh ya, 100%. And when he finally listened to the "stop" yells from everyoen until it was clear, we would have all been naked with a 5 min debuff...great...

Do we have to bring that one up again? And then the person who said that stopped working at Turbine. So is Turbine bound to his comment months previous to his leaving months after he left? No...

He's not complaining about the change...he's saying once the change happened he sold/traded the now useless to him armor. Under the new system he would have bound the item to protect something so valuable...only to have it made bound and useless to him. He's got a point. I could see other similar things happenning until we finally get all 20 levels in play. For example my +6 wis item on my sorc might have been seen as an "I can never part with it" item and been bound...until they announced the new feat that lets you substitute CHR for WIS on your save... now I have a +6 item of junk if its bound.

[MysticTheurge]

Normal Wear will occur the DP is in addition to the normal rate of wear.

I'm pretty sure this is right. It sounds like the only thing binding an item affects is whether it takes permanent damage or not while being repaired (from its normal damage).

[MasterofDungeons]

yes repair skill, when they use a shrine it repairs a portion of the damage on their weapons, not all the way mind you but think of it as a field repair. It could introduce the repair item artificer spell line so thaht casters could try repairing items. Yeah that would smart and cool, doubt it will happen

Seconded!

[maddmatt70]

Few facts on the new DP we seem to miss;

# Bound items will no longer have a chance of taking permanent damage when repaired.
# The chance for permanent damage to be inflicted on unbound items when repaired has been halved.
# Item repair costs have been reduced for all items by 25%.
# At the moment of death, all non-stacking, equipped items that your character is wearing will take a percentage of item wear. Each item will take damage equal to (Character Level * ¾, round down, maximum 10)% of their original maximum durability.



Our Bound items take no damage, our unbound items will take 50% less perm damage then we do now, a 25% cut in repair costs, and a max of 10% damage to our worn items when we die. This is win-win. Add in Item Defense for the classes that have it available and your set.

Since Beta, I may have seen 2-3 people recall out of a Quest to get repairs done - and that is because they forgot to do it before we started. IMO, recalling out for repairs is a non-issue.

I am not sure I see it the same way maybe I just dont fully understand repairs. If an item is damaged when it gets repaired doesn't it have a chance of taking the damage that was inflicted on it. So if for instance you were silly enough to keep using a weapon after it had been damaged in a quest the effects currently in game if you repair it are worse because the permanent damage that could be assessed is worse. That is where I think this is going with unbound items if you die 4 times in a quest even though you have less of a chance of perma damaging an unbound item then we do now (50% less) the effect is far greater with items durability being reduced by 10% for every death...

[MysticTheurge]

Oh no...I never even thought of this...I once was in an Abbot raid where someone was spamming the res lever even though everyone died on reentry because the eles were hanging out at the res spot... I think I died 10 times in 30 seconds. Lets see, how much damage to my equip would I have taken? Oh ya, 100%. And when he finally listened to the "stop" yells from everyoen until it was clear, we would have all been naked with a 5 min debuff...great...

Seems like the answer there is to give people a "Do you want to be raised" box just like everywhere else. (I'm assuming there isn't one already. I have yet to actually get into those two raids, **** flagging requirements.)

[MysticTheurge]

I am not sure I see it the same way maybe I just dont fully understand repairs. If an item is damaged when it gets repaired doesn't it have a chance of taking the damage that was afflicted on it. So if for instance you were silly enough to keep using a weapon after it had been damaged in a quest the effects currently in game if you repair it are worse because the permanent damage that could be assessed is worse. That is where I think this is going with unbound items if you die 4 times in a quest even though you have less of a chance of perma damaging an unbound item then we do now (50% less), but the effect is far greater with items durability being reduced by 10% for every death...

Statistically, under the old system, it didn't matter whether you repaired your items right away or you waited til they were completely broken to repair them. Over time, they'd take the same amount of permanent damage.

I don't remember the exact formula, but that's what it worked out to. Basically, the longer you waited the higher the chance that it'd get permanent damage on that repair, but the more often you repair the more chances it has to get permanent damage. So in the long run it evened out.

Waiting longer never affected the amount of permanent damage an item would take, just the chance that it would take some. The amount was determined by the current ratio of durability to original max durability.

I don't know if the new changes to the rate of permanent damage would affect this in any way, though I don't think it should.

[Dariun]

[*] At the moment of death, all non-stacking, equipped items that your character is wearing will take a percentage of item wear. Each item will take damage equal to (Character Level * ¾, round down, maximum 10)% of their original maximum durability

After reading through the discussion, I agree that the 10% of original maximum durability is too much and should be reconsidered.

Cutting it in half or making it based on current durability or capping it at 3 deaths (30%) all seem like better alternatives.

As currently planned, it will generate a great deal of unhappiness among the player base -- particularly among people who didn't care about the XP penalty anyway and see this as a "new" death penalty rather than a "changed" death penalty, but as someone who hates the current XP penalty and welcomes a change, I don't think I'll be too happy when people are complaining about weapon damage, switching gear, or recalling to repair.

There are too many save-or-die (e.g., beholder) situations in the game where someone can easily die 4-5 times (at least, *I* have been disintegrated multiple times in one quest...) even if they are trying to play carefully (I don't know how the heck that beholder could get me around the corner...).

Making people recall-to-repair is not fun for anyone, and there are some quests where you either can't or it is really problematic to do so (e.g., VON3 or anywhere where you will have to travel a long way to repair and return).

I'd suggest taking a careful look at this on Risia before making a final decision.

[MysticTheurge]

yes repair skill, when they use a shrine it repairs a portion of the damage on their weapons, not all the way mind you but think of it as a field repair. It could introduce the repair item artificer spell line so thaht casters could try repairing items. Yeah that would smart and cool, doubt it will happen

Oh I really like this idea. I'm glad Master of Dungeons seconded it or I never would've noticed it.

In addition, perhaps you could pseudo-implement the (non-Artificer) spells that do similar things, such as Make Whole (Clr 2) and Mending (Bard, Cleric Wiz/Sorc 0, but maybe you could just make it 1st, or better yet add cantrips and orisons).

You could make Mending repair a certain percentage of damage on a persons equipped items (as though taken to a standard repairer) and Make Whole could repair all of the damage (as though taken to a Master repairer).

[Akhad_Durn]

which identify them as the systems most closely tied to negative play experiences, and we’d like to take this time to address these issues.

The changes are detailed below:

• Bound items will no longer have a chance of taking permanent damage when repaired.
• The chance for permanent damage to be inflicted on unbound items when repaired has been halved.
• Item repair costs have been reduced for all items by 25%.
• Players no longer lose experience on death.
• At the moment of death, all non-stacking, equipped items that your character is wearing will take a percentage of item wear. Each item will take damage equal to (Character Level * ¾, round down, maximum 10)% of their original maximum durability, or:
  

  1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14+
  0%	1%	2%	3%	3%	4%	5%	6%	6%	7%	8%	9%	9%	10%

Note: All values, durations, and effects are still subject to change prior to the release of Module Six. Risia feedback is especially welcome!

Well... the item damage on death stinks... The only time my items currently take a lot of damage is when I'm being beat on hard enough that my char is going to die. Now I'll have the added benefit of having a static lump of damage added to all of my items on death.

I'm not going to bind my items, I don't have enough great equipment to go around already much, less if I find something better (or get some raid loot, raid loot == 0), and want to trade equipment off to another char.

Item repair cost lower by 25% is basically nothing if I'm going to need to repair all of my high end equipment every time I die. The total cost to repair is going to increase just due to the wear on everything.

Permanent damage only happening 50% of the current rate, this sounds nice, but I doubt that it’s going to decrease the amount of I'm going to be seeing. I think more of my equipment will be getting permanent damage since a lot of my equipment was never taking any damage before so didn't need to chance taking any permanent on repair.

This change to death and item damage is far worse than the current system. Currently if I don't mind too much if I die (even on non-capped chars), since I can run another quest to make up the XP difference. XP is plentiful in this game, good loot is not. With this change, you'll be exchanging XP dept, for equipment damage. XP dept isn't permanent, equipment damage is. I don't pull good loot frequently, I certainly die a lot more than I pull good loot. This change mainly means to me that my equipment is going to degrade faster than I can get it.

I quest with PUGs 100% of the time, my guild doesn't have enough people to even field a single six man quest group. I know the best, and the worst that PUGs have to offer. This change is going to decease my willingness to stick with marginal PUGs, since it will increase the cost of staying with them beyond want I'm willing to pay.

As for the death penalties, those seem reasonable. Usually a group can either pull off a tough fight, or they can’t. Usually retrying isn’t going to change that, so a wipe isn’t going to make a big difference.