Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Eladrin, first off thanks for posting such a detailed preview. It's very helpful both to calm fears and for us to be able to give you rational suggestions

I'm still not convinced the item damage makes any sense at all. I think its a mistake and I think its intended to get us to use your new "binding" mechanic more than anything else. I'd also appreciate hearing whether item defense works to prevent this damage or not and if it does...if any thought is being given to giving at least 1 level of item defense enhancements to every class.

And btw, do we really need to make a D&D game about running around and breaking boxes? That's nuts... Can you PLEASE let the rogue just do a search of the room to "reveal" all such items within his LoS as an alternative to box breaking. (leave it in for those that like box breaking, but give us the search as well )

The way you handled the debuff is very interesting. 1 minute/1 level isn't bad. The increments are reasonable. Even the 5 minute timer isn't unbearable and well...5 deaths in a row you probably deserve a slap. Having removable by palis is very interesting. This part of the change I can get behind. Its definately going to change some strategies and reduce the need for res scrolls.

The higher level resurrection effects raise you at a higher hit point percentage, as they have for some time now.

I know its not in the game yet but please give some thought to having True Res not have these negative consequencies. That's one of the reasons that spell is so powerful in D&D...its the only one without a penalty.


Edit:

The second tier faith enhancement for Undying Court currently acts as True Resurrection when used on other non-drow elves..

Hmm...I take it back, TR is in the game for some. Ok Eladrin, please make TR not have negative effects for those lucky drow now and the rest of us when we do get to L9 spells

[craythegray]

In over a year and a half of play, I've never had a significant item destroyed by damage. I think I lost a pair of Googles of Haste once..... I dont quite understand why people get all bent out of shape because of perm damage... crioes folks.. we're beating these weapons and gear into the ground... They just might break! GO get a new one....

Now, if the Binding process lowered the ML of the item I could see using this.... Maybe.....

I have to agree with you. I play mostly tanks and I have never lost an item to perma damage...unless i was trying to. I had a dwarf ax of greater ooze bane that took me a long time finially destroy. Oh and I had a tome go poof before the fixes.

which backs up my point from my post. They probably aren't changing this because of the negative impact it has.

The system that they are going to put in place will mathmaticly cause more damage to your items over time unless they are bound.

Its more to stop folks from moving items back and forth, twinking...ect ect.

I can understand this....I hate it.....but could understand it. Its the slyness that buggs me some.


Maybe I am wrong...won't be the first time.


CRAY

[Ciaran]

It doesn't affect me, as I am going to leave all of my items unbound. I like both item wear and being able to transfer items between characters that have some sort of positive relationship. (I don't transfer items between characters who don't have a relationship to each other.) I think you missed my point entirely. I was asking what possible positive benefits the death penalties were going to have on game play. IMO, a negative play experience is when people don't play as a team and we all wind up dying multiple times because people are either playing selfishly or won't adjust to the problem at hand. If someone has a different opinion about what a "negative play experience" means, and how these death penalties will solve it, I'm all ears.

Um...what do you mean characters who don't have a relationship to each other? Are you talking about alts or what? Sorry, I'm a little confused about what you mean.

I totally understand what a negative play experience is and I'm not using some alternate definition. I'm just saying that nothing is going to force people to play together as a team if there are people who don't think along those lines or care.

If it's undesirable, annoying, or whatever for you it's incumbent on you to change that. Keep a list of players that are good to group with. Join a guild with people you can group with and enjoy yourself. Drop group after the second or third pointless death. Something along those lines.

The fact remains that death in a video game will never totally curb undesirable behavior. In a game, you can always get back that level you lost, or that sword, or all that XP or whatever. I've seen bored people /death over and over again for a laugh and shrug it off by saying "It's only a game, I'll earn back everything I lost eventually".

I just don't see how it's Turbine's responsibility to implement some kind of system that punishes people who have certain playstyles, zergers or not.

[maddmatt70]

I have the feeling the there is more to this than trying to help with the perma damage items take and the neg feelings it creates. If the dev's were truely concerned about this they would just wipe out damage to items.

From reading between the lines the part that says At the moment of death, all non-stacking, equipped items that your character is wearing will take a percentage of item wear. Each item will take damage equal to (Character Level * ¾, round down, maximum 10)% also backs up my thoughts that the devs could care less about the negative impact item damage has on its player base. (For those who didn't understand that line it means you die all your stuff gets hurt. EVERYTHIGN YOU WEAR>>>>ect BOUND ITEMS>

Which leads me to my last point.

The REAL reason logic says that this is to be implemented is to tie down lootz to one toon. They want us to bind all our gear. This way we can't trade sell or pass it on when we are done with it.....we have to pawn it or destroy it. This might be inresponce to the econmey or just poor future sight by the devs.

I for one oppose this change. I will now have high repair bills on my cleric and other non combat toons. I will not be binding many items so I am sure even if they 1/2 the perma damage rate...that I will be getting way more perma damage to my items because I die alot.

I hope folks jump on the band wagon to help block this nonsence.

DEV's if you really feel that damage makes folks upset...which it does...TAKE OUT PERMA DAMAGE altogether...and be done with it.


Thanks very much...excuse the spelling if you would..

Craythegray


I AM BACK

Your right this is a negative effect on the game. The other effect is we are going to have to play more to retain the loot we have because it will be breaking down especially if it is not our top gear on our character this especially applies to weapons and really affects melee. Casters make out like bandits because the melees weapons keep breaking down and become more static and less tradeable (harder to get that weapon you want) and the casters don't have too many weapons. Since the casters already are very powerful they don't need any help...

I can also imagine my character clicking furiously at every broken container in competion with the other members of the party which really does not interest me in the slightest...

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I can understand this....I hate it.....but could understand it. Its the slyness that buggs me some.

Yup, much rather the slow twinking by adding some MLs to everything so that we stop getting weapons too soon. This method will only hurt the newer and casual players more since they don't have stockpiles of unbound uberitems

[moorewr]

I hate to say this.. I mean, it will come back to haunt me when I am lead to Madame la Guillotine by the angry crowd.. BUT:

I think the debuff is too short. There I said it. I think the timers should be doubled, or have a progressive curve (1/2/4/7/11 minutes?). Otherwise you will see excess increased zerginess (at least till the character has died a couple times). I'll have to see if the scary item damage is enough of a counter-weight.

Not that I die 5 times in a quest very often. I oughtna consider it as a tactic anyway,

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I hate to say this.. I mean, it will come back to haunt me when I am lead to Madame la Guillotine by the angry crowd..\,

kill him..kill him...kill him....

Actually in theory you make a good point... the only down side is this is group play. I don't know that I really want that inept rogue/wiz/whatever even more useless for too long.

[Ciaran]

I know its not in the game yet but please give some thought to having True Res not have these negative consequencies. That's one of the reasons that spell is so powerful in D&D...its the only one without a penalty.

Well, characters shouldn't be able to be brought back with Raise Dead if they are disintegrated either, but that's how it works in this game. If True Ressurection gives no penalties then there's little to no incentive for parties with a cleric or UMD character capable of casting TR to not die as much.

Maybe if it reduced the penalty by 1? *shrugs*

[juniorpfactors]

this change is nothing but a pain in the rear to groups.... i still believe there needs to BE harsher death penalties.....XP or something..... -1 level for 1 min ...every tank in the world will just hit the last shrine they skipped....and every paladin now needs to respec their enhancements to fix all the dead with the -levels.... just dont see the purpose if there is a shrine/ palidan work around it

[xxDevlinxx]

Will restore and lesser restore work to remove these negative levels and if not will we get extra spell slots for clerics at 12-14th lvls???

concerned guild leader and 14th lvl cleric

[moorewr]

kill him..kill him...kill him....

Actually in theory you make a good point... the only down side is this is group play. I don't know that I really want that inept rogue/wiz/whatever even more useless for too long.

"They are out of XP? Let zem eat debuffs!"

How about this? Leave the timers as is but add a CON hit (-1 per death, stacking) that lasts until you rest in a tavern. Unless you are an Elf raised by the Undying Call or you are raised by True Resurrection (hmm.. what about Greater Restoration?).

The CON hit is very PNP. I like it.

[craythegray]

Will restore and lesser restore work to remove these negative levels and if not will we get extra spell slots for clerics at 12-14th lvls???

concerned guild leader and 14th lvl cleric

Great Queston.

And while they are at it...can lesser heal pots get some love...they are still being treated like clickies.

So Barbs can't use them while raged....and they can't be used while under madstone boot's effect.


I would love to see these two bugs fixed.


Craythegray

[moorewr]

Will restore and lesser restore work to remove these negative levels and if not will we get extra spell slots for clerics at 12-14th lvls???

concerned guild leader and 14th lvl cleric

Evidently they will not, and there's nothing to indicate we clerics would get extra slots (why would we?).

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Well, characters shouldn't be able to be brought back with Raise Dead if they are disintegrated either, but that's how it works in this game. If True Ressurection gives no penalties then there's little to no incentive for parties with a cleric or UMD character capable of casting TR to not die as much.

Maybe if it reduced the penalty by 1? *shrugs*

Well.... True Res SUPPOSED to remove all penalties. I mean death REALLY matters in paper D&D up until you get that spell and then it does become penalty free. True Res is supposed to be equivilent in D&D to the granting of a miracle or the use of a wish spell. This is one of the most powerful magic spells in the game at play. I mean at 20th level you can raise someone to perfect health without a body who has been dead for 200 years!

The limiting factor in D&D is of course the limited number of spell slots. You can't just spam TR like you could here. In the case of the pali ability its already on a 10 minute timer so its not like it can be used all the time. I'd be ok if when TR shows up it also has a longer than average cool down to avoid its overuse...but it should be a mighty spell, not just give you a couple more HP/SP.

[Thrudh]

I have one question...

How often have people lost items from breakage? I've NEVER lost an item in the last 18 months... I have a couple that have lost half their durability, but I have yet to completely lose an item. Is this an issue for people?

[Beherit_Baphomar]

I dunno if this has been axed, cause Im way too important to read all the pages here...but if you bind something
can you then unbind it?

I imagine not, cause then its not really binding, its more....taping it to you....but I thought Id ax.

[Ciaran]

Will restore and lesser restore work to remove these negative levels and if not will we get extra spell slots for clerics at 12-14th lvls???

concerned guild leader and 14th lvl cleric

Re-read what Eladrin posted. He said that only effects that remove negative death effects will remove this and as of right now the Cleric/Paladin enhancement "Unyielding Sovereignty" is the only thing that does this.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I dunno if this has been axed, cause Im way too important to read all the pages here...but if you bind something
can you then unbind it?

I imagine not, cause then its not really binding, its more....taping it to you....but I thought Id ax.

El said no somewhere in this thread Bound is bound

[xxDevlinxx]

Are we going to be able to Unbind items too?? and what about the flawed dragonshards are they going to drop more often - perhaps out of breakables?


concerned citizen

[ArkoHighStar]

I dunno if this has been axed, cause Im way too important to read all the pages here...but if you bind something
can you then unbind it?

I imagine not, cause then its not really binding, its more....taping it to you....but I thought Id ax.

no eladrin responded that there is no unbind feature currently