Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[BillBob]

Well the fears of losing hard earned items could be assuaged by the fact that one could, in the future, build replacements with the upcoming crafting system. If one could replace that vorpal/wp/etc (with enough of the right components ) then it would become less of an issue. Question then becomes what will you be able to craft? Also, will the components used in the process be as random as current item drops? (then makes little difference)


...But that is sometime in the future...

>>> To the future! >>> [insert woosh sound] >>>>

[ewrecker2003]

ok i can deal with the the skill deal. But i can not deal with the equip damage. i reroll when i get bored with a toon so i send
the equip off. At lvl 14 u are lets say in abot raid you die 10 times all your equip is useless and with most having perma damage
this i can not afford let alone try to get the uber stuff back. Am i wrong on this or is this the way it will work. Please I love to know


Redds 14 cleric fernia forever
Co-founder of Southern Tenants Farmers Union

[woodspider]

1-2 points of perm. damage per death is not acceptable. I hate to say this, But I agree with Tec. I believe this is moving the game in a direction I donot like. Hell, I would rather lose 10% pp than to have 1-2 perm. damage per items. And If I had enough Ubers it wouldn't matter, I couldjust bind them. But I don't soit does matter. (I havesome weapons/items that I switch between characters.)

[Falco_Easts]

Might already have been asked and answered in one of the previous 20,000 pages but does the reduced equipment damage enhancements have any effect on death damage to items?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Might already have been asked and answered in one of the previous 20,000 pages but does the reduced equipment damage enhancements have any effect on death damage to items?

Nope, they don't do anything. Several players have suggested they should, others feel that they shouldn't. No dev comment either way.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Seriously, I hope we can all agree on one thing: that over time, equipment needs to be taken out of circulation or we will all experience the ill effects of excessive lootflation (if we haven't already). It's for the health of the game.

I'm not really sure I do agree with that.... I still am not as well equipped as many players and I already play too much...I don't need to see my equipment disappear.

[Polsih]

Maybe I've got my economics all wrong, but the more "uber" items we have in circulation ... the less valuable they are ... not the other way around.

So, if people utilize Binding to protect their items instead of passing them on via the AH, to a guildie or the rare "I don't really know you, but it's your lucky day" gifting, those who base their business on selling uber items will have their goods be worth that much more.

I think that will be one of the unintended consequences that the current proposed implementation of the death penalty might bring. That, and having folks recall to repair damaged equipment.

So, while I prefer MT's progressive equipment damage death penalty ... I'd really prefer equipment be left out of the mix. While some folks can handle the ramifications of getting their [Golden Cartouche, w/p rapier, Heavy Fort Ant-man hat, etc.] damaged to the point that they have to get a replacement ... some can't. And, I enjoy this game way too much to see it lose folks.

[ArkoHighStar]

Ok so I am curious which people prefer the most, a progression by level, or a progression by quest difficulty. My argument is as follows. Most casual players do not do quests on elite at least not at their level, they will however go back and do a level 12 quest on elite when they are 14, making it a quest they have more of a chance at handling. Most hardcore players also do not do every quest on elite every time. The "trailblazers" and anyone else who jumps into new content as soon as it comes out will always start out on normal and work their way up to elite, fo some this make takes a mere few hours, and others days, but the fact of the matter is the most deaths will occur on normal in new content, or maybe the first ime on elite if you aren't sufficiently prepared. Lets face most hardcore players once they have gotten favor on elite will stick the loot runs on elite as there is very little incentive to go back an do the unpopular quests on elite, especially if you are trying to flag for a raid

In my opinion the level progression punishes people for simply getting to a high level. And Tekno it is why xp debt becomes broken as we get closer to lvl 20, as you start having to ask the question where do you stop and how much is too much. We saw what happened when Turbine put it too high with mod 3. There will come a point where 10 deaths and you drop an entire level. and then you will be screaming for something else

So as I stated before I think any kind of penalty tied to level is simply bound to broken eventually and will have to be reworked, just like everything else in this game that was tied to level has been. examples: xp progession, spell point progression, enhancement system, all these had to be redone because the devs did not think past the initial level cap of 10 when doing balancing. Xp debt was always a risk vs reward kind of thing do elite you could die some more but you could se bigger xp aand better items. It suits the hardcore player well as it has few downsides for someone who plays often and generally has multiple characters.Casual players loath xp debt as they play less and a few deaths can mean some downtime as they are more likely to wait out the debt decay then try to gain it back by doing a quest.

I too would like to see the item damage done away with, and if it must be kept then substantially reduced

Lvl 1-2 no penalty, new players will enjoy this, and older players spend about an hour at these levels anyway so they will never notice.
lvl 3-up
Normal
First death between shrines: 2%
Second death between shrines: 4%
Third death between shrines: 6%
10 deaths without a shrine =54% damage
Hard
First death between shrines: 2%
Second death between shrines: 4%
Third death between shrines: 6%
Fourth death between shrines: 8%
10 deaths without a shrine=68% damage
Elite
First death between shrines: 2%
Second death between shrines: 4%
Third death between shrines: 6%
Fourth death between shrines: 8%
Fifth or more death between shrines: 10%
10 deaths without a shrine=80%


Under this system even 10 deaths between a shrine would not fully damage your equipment even on elite, but lets be realistic who is going to wait that long before shrining even once. Dying 10 times in quest when first learning it is not out of the ordinary but dying 10 times between a shrine is a little much.

Combine this repair at shrine using item repair kits with up to +5 bonus just like healing kits

[ArkoHighStar]

1-2 points of perm. damage per death is not acceptable. I hate to say this, But I agree with Tec. I believe this is moving the game in a direction I donot like. Hell, I would rather lose 10% pp than to have 1-2 perm. damage per items. And If I had enough Ubers it wouldn't matter, I couldjust bind them. But I don't soit does matter. (I havesome weapons/items that I switch between characters.)

I aqm not sure which idea called for perm dmdg per death but neither Turbine's or most of the popular ones here call for that. dmg is temporary until repaired and it is only then that there is a chance at perm damage

[woodspider]

I aqm not sure which idea called for perm dmdg per death but neither Turbine's or most of the popular ones here call for that. dmg is temporary until repaired and it is only then that there is a chance at perm damage

Yes, but people are stating they are recieving 1-2 points of perm. damage. Not less they run to the desert. And if that is Turbines intent(to make a grind out of repair) SHAME on them. The reason I keep playing this game is because it is not a grind.

[ArkoHighStar]

Yes, but people are stating they are recieving 1-2 points of perm. damage. Not less they run to the desert. And if that is Turbines intent(to make a grind out of repair) SHAME on them. The reason I keep playing this game is because it is not a grind.

how often do you have to repair after a quest today, if you are a melee type I would wager it is every time and you have perm damage on a few things

[BillBob]

I assume the subsequent death % are cumulative. That being said, then players may look to using a rest shrine to reset their death penalty instead of just using them for recovery. This may lead to hard choice: Do i rest when the don't need it (health/mana/clickie), just to reset the death penalty or not?

Using repair kits is a good idea and a good use for the skill outside of WF recovery. It would be nice to have the repair option in the trade window so players with a good repair skill could repair their allies equipment. Though, the playerbase should get a skill respec if this is implemented.

[woodspider]

how often do you have to repair after a quest today, if you are a melee type I would wager it is every time and you have perm damage on a few things

I repair every time after a quest, and the only time I get perm. damageis if I fight a lot of slimes and rusties. and that is with a melee, my caster only gets perm damage once a month if that.(**** disengrate!)

[Polsih]

Pre Mod 6, you typically would never attain 10% on all your equiped items unless you were bathing in slime. So, you might get a tick or two of permanent damage occasionally when repairing, but it was a rare event if you repaired regularly.

The Mod 6 method on Risia will have you attaining 10% damage on all your items. Those that aren't bound are then far more likely to attain perm dmg, even with the reduction in potential for perm dmg. To reduce the chances of perm dmg, they can further reduce the potential ... but, what was the point in the first place?

MT's method of a 2% progression per death reduces that risk of perm dmg on repairs. But, then again, what is the point. It then becomes an annoyance.

So, go with a Severe Penalty (Having to Bind most of your good equip, and potential for unfixable dmg for those items that you don't Bind) ... or make it a nuisance. Again, what are we looking for here?

If you run with a group that just doesn't gel, for whatever reason ... should you suffer what some would consider "severe" ramifications that go beyond that quest and that night? Do we want to further limit the groups in which we choose to run? Do we want to make rare items even more rare and worth more to plat farmers? If those are the goals, then equipment damage is the way to go.

In my mind, a death penalty should hinder your character somewhat. But, I don't think we want folks leaving quests to repair anymore than we wanted them leaving to get back sp. And, we don't want folks abandoning groups 'cause even though the quest has lasted for an hour ... the cost to continue is too high for them.

While the XP penalty wasn't working for cap'd characters, it worked ok for those that weren't. Would a loss of favor to cap'd characters be a preferable solution? The price to pay is to have to regain favor with a House/Group?

I'm not sure what the right answer is, but any solution that makes it harder to form groups (and keep them together) and argueably makes plat farmers loot more valuable seems a bit in the wrong direction to me.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

how often do you have to repair after a quest today, if you are a melee type I would wager it is every time and you have perm damage on a few things

I have very little permanent damage. I repair when I have about 10% damage but it takes a while to get there most of the time as long as I'm using the appropriate weapon for the target (ie - not slashing for skellis). I have only rarely gotten perm damage and not enough on anything of value to matter. I certainly never had 1 point of damage on every quest. Heck I've died 6 times in a quest and repaired at the end without any perm damage. This will def create more perm damage and I don't like that at all...

Maybe I've got my economics all wrong, but the more "uber" items we have in circulation ... the less valuable they are ... not the other way around.

So, if people utilize Binding to protect their items instead of passing them on via the AH, to a guildie or the rare "I don't really know you, but it's your lucky day" gifting, those who base their business on selling uber items will have their goods be worth that much more.

I think that will be one of the unintended consequences that the current proposed implementation of the death penalty might bring. That, and having folks recall to repair damaged equipment.

So, while I prefer MT's progressive equipment damage death penalty ... I'd really prefer equipment be left out of the mix. .

I agree. This will increase trade/AH prices to make it even harder for newbies to find anything remotely uber and I have no doubt it will increase the farmer problem. Now not only will players feel a greater need to get plat due to increasing prices they will also look more to the farmers for uber item sales.

[ArkoHighStar]

Pre Mod 6, you typically would never attain 10% on all your equiped items unless you were bathing in slime. So, you might get a tick or two of permanent damage occasionally when repairing, but it was a rare event if you repaired regularly.

The Mod 6 method on Risia will have you attaining 10% damage on all your items. Those that aren't bound are then far more likely to attain perm dmg, even with the reduction in potential for perm dmg. To reduce the chances of perm dmg, they can further reduce the potential ... but, what was the point in the first place?

MT's method of a 2% progression per death reduces that risk of perm dmg on repairs. But, then again, what is the point. It then becomes an annoyance.

So, go with a Severe Penalty (Having to Bind most of your good equip, and potential for unfixable dmg for those items that you don't Bind) ... or make it a nuisance. Again, what are we looking for here?

If you run with a group that just doesn't gel, for whatever reason ... should you suffer what some would consider "severe" ramifications that go beyond that quest and that night? Do we want to further limit the groups in which we choose to run? Do we want to make rare items even more rare and worth more to plat farmers? If those are the goals, then equipment damage is the way to go.

In my mind, a death penalty should hinder your character somewhat. But, I don't think we want folks leaving quests to repair anymore than we wanted them leaving to get back sp. And, we don't want folks abandoning groups 'cause even though the quest has lasted for an hour ... the cost to continue is too high for them.

While the XP penalty wasn't working for cap'd characters, it worked ok for those that weren't. Would a loss of favor to cap'd characters be a preferable solution? The price to pay is to have to regain favor with a House/Group?

I'm not sure what the right answer is, but any solution that makes it harder to form groups (and keep them together) and argueably makes plat farmers loot more valuable seems a bit in the wrong direction to me.

The problem is if they go this route, which they seem determined to do, if we just have the death shock debuff, when we get true ressurection it will be a moost point as the death shock should not occur( and trust me if they keep it with true ressurrection there will be an uproar). So they have to do something to make death have some kind of price.Item damage is that price. At 10% a death it is just way too high, and too punitive, the scaling damage at least keeps it in check and really only forces you to the shrine after a few deaths.

[ArkoHighStar]

I have very little permanent damage. I repair when I have about 10% damage but it takes a while to get there most of the time as long as I'm using the appropriate weapon for the target (ie - not slashing for skellis). I have only rarely gotten perm damage and not enough on anything of value to matter. I certainly never had 1 point of damage on every quest. Heck I've died 6 times in a quest and repaired at the end without any perm damage. This will def create more perm damage and I don't like that at all...




I agree. This will increase trade/AH prices to make it even harder for newbies to find anything remotely uber and I have no doubt it will increase the farmer problem. Now not only will players feel a greater need to get plat due to increasing prices they will also look more to the farmers for uber item sales.

but that is why I agree the 10% a death is just way to high, under my sytem and Mystic, it would take 3 deaths to equal 1 aprox, and it is resettable by using a shrine just like the debuff. also if we are able to repair at a shrine the perm damage should be no more than what it is today.

[Polsih]

The problem is if they go this route, which they seem determined to do, if we just have the death shock debuff, when we get true ressurection it will be a moost point as the death shock should not occur( and trust me if they keep it with true ressurrection there will be an uproar). So they have to do something to make death have some kind of price.Item damage is that price. At 10% a death it is just way too high, and too punitive, the scaling damage at least keeps it in check and really only forces you to the shrine after a few deaths.

But, if you were instead to lose** favor with a House or the Coin Lords or the Silver Flame or [fill in the blank] as a result of your death, and had to make it back up by rehashing a quest ... they get a win/win out of it. There is a penalty to the player for deaths (you wouldn't go /death ing around town for example) and you have to rerun a quest to make up for your tomfoolery. Thus, it doesn't inhibit you from playing a game while you only wait around for those you know and trust to play. Even better, why rehash a quest? Make it a solo run where you have to regain the favor of said house by slaying a vile (random & level appropriate, of course) beast that is wreaking havoc upon their buildings/lands/coffers ... whatever.

The xp penalty works when you aren't level cap'd. If there were more levels, and more content, this might be a non-issue. My cap'd characters are already penalized when they run new content without increasing levels. Their potential for xp goes down each time. Losing additional money & equipment further penalizes them. So, even if you take away the xp penalty, a cap'd character is limiting their potential xp each and every time they run a new quest. ... Now, I'm rambling!

** When I say lose favor, you don't really lose it ... you have to regain it. But, droping below 1750 wouldn't make you lose your tome. (And, then get you another after you regain.) It might make you lose your pendant of time, or buffs, or returning arrows though.

[Ron]

Ok so I am curious which people prefer the most, a progression by level, or a progression by quest difficulty.

You know, my initial reaction was that I prefer the progression by level, but upon further reflection, I couldn't actually tell you why I guess I'm a little resistant to the idea of different rules for different difficulties. However, clearly we already have that (different MOB spell selections, ACs, HPs, and so on). So this wouldn't exactly be breaking any precidents.

I think I would be okay with it either way, to be honest. I actually like your (by which I mean MT and Arko) system better than the original one laid out by El. I hope they implement what you guys have proposed pretty much word for word.

Combine this repair at shrine using item repair kits with up to +5 bonus just like healing kits

Oooh, that's a good idea! I like.

You know, I'm all for removing a lot of the equipment from this game, because in all honesty, I think there is FAR too much uber equipment floating around, and it has had (in my opinion) a very negative impact on how dungeons are designed in the last year (and in fact, it's unsustainable, consider that they had to design Abbot for level 14 uber-equipped characters, what would they have done for level 20? Can you imagine something TWICE as hard as Abbot? I can't, hehe). However, I recognize the fact that the initial system may have been more punitive than was really needed, I may have been blinded to this by the fact that I was happy they were going to do something to correct what I feel is a totally out of control game economy. I think your system both punishes death (so as to provide the "risk" that makes the game fun), helps to put a curb on the economy, and yet isn't SO punishing to the players they get frustrated.

Seriously, guys, I'm in awe. You should both get a free month of play for this contribution

[ArkoHighStar]

But, if you were instead to lose** favor with a House or the Coin Lords or the Silver Flame or [fill in the blank] as a result of your death, and had to make it back up by rehashing a quest ... they get a win/win out of it. There is a penalty to the player for deaths (you wouldn't go /death ing around town for example) and you have to rerun a quest to make up for your tomfoolery. Thus, it doesn't inhibit you from playing a game while you only wait around for those you know and trust to play. Even better, why rehash a quest? Make it a solo run where you have to regain the favor of said house by slaying a vile (random & level appropriate, of course) beast that is wreaking havoc upon their buildings/lands/coffers ... whatever.

The xp penalty works when you aren't level cap'd. If there were more levels, and more content, this might be a non-issue. My cap'd characters are already penalized when they run new content without increasing levels. Their potential for xp goes down each time. Losing additional money & equipment further penalizes them. So, even if you take away the xp penalty, a cap'd character is limiting their potential xp each and every time they run a new quest. ... Now, I'm rambling!

** When I say lose favor, you don't really lose it ... you have to regain it. But, droping below 1750 wouldn't make you lose your tome. (And, then get you another after you regain.) It might make you lose your pendant of time, or buffs, or returning arrows though.

Losing favor is pointless for most capped players, as some of the rewards are items or benefits(dragonblood), others are usless to anyone but thieves and the few who actually buy healers kits. And your comment about getting another after you regain just begs abuse, as how many people would get to 1750 go out die on purpose just enough to lose it and then do a few quests to get it back, everyone would have +2 tomes on every stat.