Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[Serpent]

Again if you don't have many capped characters, or don't do a lot of end content raiding and looting, this is an aspect of the game that will be totall unfamiliar to you

That is true, this is from my perspective. I thought MT might understand where I was coming from.

Also side note. Many people don't have expert repair so I think it is unfair to include that in with testing. Test the mean not the ideal.

[MysticTheurge]

yes but that time is much shorter now

That depends heavily on how much you die.

If you never die (impractical of course, but it is the outer limit), that time is now twice as long as it was before.

[Warrax23]

I don't know bout you guys but I can level a char from 1-14.4 in less then 10 days so the xp debt on death doesn't bother me in the least. However start messing up the gear I use and I can still do it, but it costs even more PP then just the leveling.. That's why I'm burning up all my char to level 14.4 before this goes in. So what did all this mean to me, nothing, will it keep items out of the economy hell no, you get an item to sell you put it in the back until you want to sell it. It's a pipe dream that will come back to bite DDO in the rear. The few who are all about this getting implemented are seemingly just going againts everyone else because they like to argue, because there is NO good coming out of this addition unless you're a plat farmer so you can tack another 4 million to the vorpals and high end loot. THINK about it. All the uber gear is gonna go up in price not down. It's still gonna be around.

[ArkoHighStar]

That depends heavily on how much you die.

If you never die (impractical of course, but it is the outer limit), that time is now twice as long as it was before.

you obviously have not played new content much when it first comes out, a few deaths and sometimes many deaths is simply part of the package when you don't have instructions from those who came before, because you are the guy who came before. Let me be honest. I will never be the first guy to finsih the new raid, as even I am not that dedicated, but I will be in there playing the quests the first night it comes out dying like the rest of us.

[MysticTheurge]

It is not forcing us to do anything that is correct, what it is doing is removing an aspect form the game (twinking, trading, searching, giving, helping, etc) that many (dare I say a large majority) enjoy.

And If i need to explain how that will be hindered or removed then many are not thinking hard enough.

I can certainly see how it's hindered in the new system. It seems a little overly dramatic to suggest that it's going to be removed.

[MysticTheurge]

you obviously have not played new content much when it first comes out, a few deaths and sometimes many deaths is simply part of the package when you don't have instructions from those who came before, because you are the guy who came before. Let me be honest. I will never be the first guy to finsih the new raid, as even I am not that dedicated, but I will be in there playing the quests the first night it comes out dying like the rest of us.

Yes. I understand this.

And I offered a suggestion on how to deal with this.

Whether Eladrin implements it or not is something that is still up in the air (though he did seem to like the idea in general).

[ArkoHighStar]

I can certainly see how it's hindered in the new system. It seems a little overly dramatic to suggest that it's going to be removed.

what will happen however is that the bar will be made higher so that only a few who can afford to have bound gear and extra gear will be able to do so. The fewer who do it the higher the proces will be, meaning good gear will be even harder to find.

[HumanRogue]

well I just realized something. For a casual gamer in the game this may be an improvement they like cause it puts them on a more even level with power gamers (people playing around 10+ hours a week) because they will get to use there items the same amount of "game time" as a power gamer since they will only replace their stuff every 6 months and the power gamers have to replace it about monthly. I am wondering if it is this group that is for this change because it wont effect them to greatly.

The problem with this attitude is that most of your power gamers may decide (such as myself and 5 other family members playing this each with their own accounts) that its just not worth the fight any more because there are other things we can do together. So you take out the power gamers (those that play on the game alot) and what do you have. A lot of people that will never be able to find a group to join cause only other casual players are on. For those power gamers that do stay do you think they are going to be inviting people they don't trust to go into the quests? Pugs are going to be a thing of the past to some degree in the harder quests because people won't trust someone they dont know to keep them alive. So you will have the casual players trying to find each other on to play with and the power gamers sticking together and only going into dungeons with those they feel are tried and tested. Doesnt sound like an improvement for either set of gamers when you really think about it not to mention those that will decide that they have had enough changes from Turbin trying to nurf their gameing experience and decide to try something else.

Most people that branch out and cancel the account DON'T come back. I myself have played somewhere between 6 to 8 of these types of games over the years including Ultima Online, Everquest and Shadowbane. Once I left I never gave them a second thought and I am pretty sure if you impliment this patch that will destroy peoples equipment that took in many cases hundreds of hours to get then you will lose at least my family because it makes playing for the many, many hours just not worth it any more.

On a positive note I love the new area that I have seen and the new critters. Two thumbs up on it Hopefully you guys can make it worth our time to stick around to enjoy your hard work.

[Ron]

what will happen however is that the bar will be made higher so that only a few who can afford to have bound gear and extra gear will be able to do so. The fewer who do it the higher the proces will be, meaning good gear will be even harder to find.

Good. Maybe then the devs can design reasonable content based around true CR levels rather than this ridiculous stuff we have now (e.g. Abbot, PiitP, ALL of the necro quests, etc). Maybe they can start taking out the arbitrary red-named immunities that were put in to combat all the uber gear floating around.

This is the kind of thing I mean when I say the economy is out of control. The game has to be designed around the equipment people bring into the quests, and at the moment it's being designed around absurd levels of twinkage. There are people running around with a virtual golf-bag of uber-elite weapons, and that's what's so messed up.

Yeah, that means not everyone will have a vorpal or a banisher or one of the "big 5" weapons. Good. These are *supposed* to be rare. NOT everyone should have them. It should be a big deal if you do.

Now, that's a pipe dream, I know. It's too late to put that genie back in the bottle now. But ya know, if this system helps to put curbs on the economy by discouraging twinkage, well, I'm not going to complain. If that means I never see one of those uber weapons in my career here in DDO, then I'm okay with that. Just as long as the dungeons stop being designed around that equipment.

I've heard many times the argument "It doesn't affect you, let others play how they want! Stop imposing your rules on us!". And ya know, if it were true that it didn't affect me, I'd be totally happy to let you play however you like and with whatever you like. But that's utterly nieve. It DOES affect me. Is there any chance I will ever get to do the Abbot raid? Nope. No one will have me, because my characters are not uber-twinked out. And I AGREE with them, you need to have 12 uber characters to run that quest, from all I hear. I'd probably not come along (if somehow I were invited) for fear I wouldn't be able to contribute in any meaningful way. I'm completely locked out of that content. For that matter ANY content designed around characters carrying a bagful of vorpals, banishers, slayers, and so on. So spare me that argument, it holds no water.

And that is why I think taking items out of the economy is a good thing for the game. This game IS all about having fun (no argument there), but because it is persitant and a multi-player game, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. You have to consider how your game systems affect the game as a whole (unlike a single player game, where you can design the content knowing pretty much *exactly* how well the player will be equipped at any given time and balance appropriately). And sometimes that means you have to do things that might take away from the fun of a single player for the health of the entire population.

Nobody want to die. Nobody wants to take the hit that dying causes (or at least they shouldn't). But it's that very risk that makes the rest of the game fun for many people (a riskless MMOG is a boring MMOG is a dead MMOG, just ask the good people over at Auto Assault). To be sure, not for everyone, because everyone is different, as evidenced by this thread, heh.

So there are two goals, to put in the risk that I think the majority of people want in a game (and I know you disagree Arko, but I really think they do want it) and to put a check on the economy so that content can be designed in a level appropriate (and sustainable) way. The system as proposed by El and as modified by MT/Arko acheives the first, I think, and helps (though certainly doesn't solve) the second. Unfortunately, there is no quick fix for the second. Just look at how people are screaming over the baby step they are trying to put in now, heh.

For those that don't like the item damage/binding thing, you are quite lucky I didn't design this game. If I had, every item in the game would have been BoA right from the start (tradable in chests to party members, but once you pick it up it's yours forever, unless you sell it to a broker, where prices are GAME set and characters buy it with the money THEY earn). No twinkage, no plat farmers, definitely no AH, all quests designed as appropriate for a 4 player party at that CR level. That, my friends, is what I consider the perfect game, heh.

Yeeps, I rambled on far longer than I intended to

[Emon1]

Please, please don't go messing around with my equipment! I worked hard for it and to have it damage by (sometimes frequent) deaths is unacceptable. I forsee repair cost and equipment replacement cost reaching the point of absurdity. Remember your Gianthold relic armors? Multiply that by 100 fold. I don't see how this new equipment damage system will do anything but make people angry.

The new death penalty system is the worst system yet. What is there to gain by piling up negative levels on a toon that will last 5 minutes? I know, how about making death permanent!! Then see the mass flock to play DDO!!! I play this game to see my toons move FORWARD. Crazy death penalty systems and wrecking my gear at death will push me towards ending my subscription because these changes do nothing to improve my gaming experience. LEAVE THE DEATH SYSTEM ALONE. The current system is reasonable. XP debt, even in the 10's of thousands is easily removed by running high end quests. So there is no real complaint. The debt even goes down when not playing! How can you loose?

Final thought. If the new system is introduced and by toons get massive bills and permanent destruction of equipment from deaths, then I will be permanently removing my funding of DDO. I like this game. It is my first MMO. DDO is enjoyable to me but I have a limit. Don't mess with my hard earned toons.

P.S.
Fix the ladders in STK!

[Vorn]

Not that this is especially germaine, but got me wondering about how much we really die when encountering new content? Here's my recollection of my main's run through things:

Mod 5 intial quest run deaths (all on normal of course) by 'careful zergers'
The five new tombs/crypt: zero (all pugs) (oozes did more damage than anything to gear)
Orchard mapping: no tpw, but my character died three times and most folks died a couple of times. We also strategically withdrew with ddoors a number of times.
Fleshmaker: zero until we did the optional then one near tpw...all but the high ac tank who killed everything.
Vol: zero for me, we lost the rogue at least once.
GoP (trying to do the optionals before giving those up): five tpws (it was ugly)
Inferno (couldn't figure out the optional chest): no tpw but my character died twice as did just about everyone elses.
New Preraid: very few deaths in the dungeon, a hilarious death from the skelly, another couple from the dang trapped falling pit, figuring out the questions--omg, tpw after tpw...very ugly. Vol side: zero. Cinnis: died once, a couple of others did as well. Beholder: died once (and pretty well stayed dead). Mentau: died five times.
New raid: dunno haven't dared to go in.

I imagine we would have died less if we'd dungeon-crawled but it was the first day or two of release and we were excited.

[ArkoHighStar]

Not that this is especially germaine, but got me wondering about how much we really die when encountering new content? Here's my recollection of my main's run through things:

Mod 5 intial quest run deaths (all on normal of course) by 'careful zergers'
The five new tombs/crypt: zero (all pugs) (oozes did more damage than anything to gear)
Orchard mapping: no tpw, but my character died three times and most folks died a couple of times. We also strategically withdrew with ddoors a number of times.
Fleshmaker: zero until we did the optional then one near tpw...all but the high ac tank who killed everything.
Vol: zero for me, we lost the rogue at least once.
GoP (trying to do the optionals before giving those up): five tpws (it was ugly)
Inferno (couldn't figure out the optional chest): no tpw but my character died twice as did just about everyone elses.
New Preraid: very few deaths in the dungeon, a hilarious death from the skelly, another couple from the dang trapped falling pit, figuring out the questions--omg, tpw after tpw...very ugly. Vol side: zero. Cinnis: died once, a couple of others did as well. Beholder: died once (and pretty well stayed dead). Mentau: died five times.
New raid: dunno haven't dared to go in.

I imagine we would have died less if we'd dungeon-crawled but it was the first day or two of release and we were excited.

I remember doing ghosts of perdition with a pug the first time died 8 times it was not a good day

[Ciaran]

And I've read all of them. Not a single one of them explains to me why taking items out of the economy is a bad thing.

Then you must've skipped mine. Being that I've responded directly to you a few time, I guess you are.

Taking them out of the economy limits what can passed on to other characters or what can be given to other players. Why do I need to spend 6k plat on a nice mid-level item when I can keep the one that I have?

I have a +1 greataxe of greater undead bane that has over 50% damage. Almost every melee character I've had has used it. If people are holding on to and redistributing items, the need to buy other items is diminished. In this economy where even mediocre high level items sell for 1 mill plat, I see holding on to items being a good thing.

[NiasTrams]

For the DEVs, don't want them over looked (which would be easy);

Have seen some post from others stating that upon being raised in a quest they could nolonger use thier equipment that they nolonger high enough level for, will the tempoary debuffs to level prevent us from using equipment we were wearing before we died?

Also want to know if the new DP will, as I suspect, allow for multiple items to become broke and unusable during the quest if I die frequently? I ask this because that is what happens when I forget to pack a club or two when going into a slimey/oozy area and only have a sickle and sword to choose from? (This question is based on what happened to a low level rogue I was working on for awhile.)

Is XP regeneration based on favor because 2 of my 3 primary toons don't regenerate while offline if in debt (but they are capped so I know when I do the Reaver's Fate raid they will be flush again)? No, I don't like being in debt even when capped, as someone else insinuated,m it's a personal pride thing.

It is being assumed that permanent damage repair, when available, will be for only bound items; would like clarification on this so debating an issue that isn't an issue doesn't tie up this enourmous thread.

[GeneralDiomedes]

and good luck ever completing a raid because most of the people threatening to quit are the ones who jump in first and make it easier for the go slow crowd

Hm.

Where was the first Abbot made easier for the 'slow crowd'?

On Risia. No permanent damage done.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Also want to know if the new DP will, as I suspect, allow for multiple items to become broke and unusable during the quest if I die frequently? I ask this because that is what happens when I forget to pack a club or two when going into a slimey/oozy area and only have a sickle and sword to choose from? (This question is based on what happened to a low level rogue I was working on for awhile.)

Not if you bind them.

[MysticTheurge]

Not if you bind them.

Bound items still take damage, they just don't take permanent damage.

If you end up in an oozy area with no appropriate weapons, just bare-fist it.

[ArkoHighStar]

Good. Maybe then the devs can design reasonable content based around true CR levels rather than this ridiculous stuff we have now (e.g. Abbot, PiitP, ALL of the necro quests, etc). Maybe they can start taking out the arbitrary red-named immunities that were put in to combat all the uber gear floating around.

This is the kind of thing I mean when I say the economy is out of control. The game has to be designed around the equipment people bring into the quests, and at the moment it's being designed around absurd levels of twinkage. There are people running around with a virtual golf-bag of uber-elite weapons, and that's what's so messed up.

Yeah, that means not everyone will have a vorpal or a banisher or one of the "big 5" weapons. Good. These are *supposed* to be rare. NOT everyone should have them. It should be a big deal if you do.

Now, that's a pipe dream, I know. It's too late to put that genie back in the bottle now. But ya know, if this system helps to put curbs on the economy by discouraging twinkage, well, I'm not going to complain. If that means I never see one of those uber weapons in my career here in DDO, then I'm okay with that. Just as long as the dungeons stop being designed around that equipment.

I've heard many times the argument "It doesn't affect you, let others play how they want! Stop imposing your rules on us!". And ya know, if it were true that it didn't affect me, I'd be totally happy to let you play however you like and with whatever you like. But that's utterly nieve. It DOES affect me. Is there any chance I will ever get to do the Abbot raid? Nope. No one will have me, because my characters are not uber-twinked out. And I AGREE with them, you need to have 12 uber characters to run that quest, from all I hear. I'd probably not come along (if somehow I were invited) for fear I wouldn't be able to contribute in any meaningful way. I'm completely locked out of that content. For that matter ANY content designed around characters carrying a bagful of vorpals, banishers, slayers, and so on. So spare me that argument, it holds no water.

And that is why I think taking items out of the economy is a good thing for the game. This game IS all about having fun (no argument there), but because it is persitant and a multi-player game, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. You have to consider how your game systems affect the game as a whole (unlike a single player game, where you can design the content knowing pretty much *exactly* how well the player will be equipped at any given time and balance appropriately). And sometimes that means you have to do things that might take away from the fun of a single player for the health of the entire population.

Nobody want to die. Nobody wants to take the hit that dying causes (or at least they shouldn't). But it's that very risk that makes the rest of the game fun for many people (a riskless MMOG is a boring MMOG is a dead MMOG, just ask the good people over at Auto Assault). To be sure, not for everyone, because everyone is different, as evidenced by this thread, heh.

So there are two goals, to put in the risk that I think the majority of people want in a game (and I know you disagree Arko, but I really think they do want it) and to put a check on the economy so that content can be designed in a level appropriate (and sustainable) way. The system as proposed by El and as modified by MT/Arko acheives the first, I think, and helps (though certainly doesn't solve) the second. Unfortunately, there is no quick fix for the second. Just look at how people are screaming over the baby step they are trying to put in now, heh.

For those that don't like the item damage/binding thing, you are quite lucky I didn't design this game. If I had, every item in the game would have been BoA right from the start (tradable in chests to party members, but once you pick it up it's yours forever, unless you sell it to a broker, where prices are GAME set and characters buy it with the money THEY earn). No twinkage, no plat farmers, definitely no AH, all quests designed as appropriate for a 4 player party at that CR level. That, my friends, is what I consider the perfect game, heh.

Yeeps, I rambled on far longer than I intended to

ok now I know how you really feel.
I would argue that the dungeons are not being designed around uber weapons on normal. I do not have multiple sets of dragon armor, nor do I have every power 5 10 times over. In fact the only suit of dragon armor I have is a gift from a guildie. I have caped 5 chars, and most do not get twinked till lvl 10 with super uber gear, and even then my version of super upber gear is +4 stat items, I have 2 +5 stat items and 2 +6 stat items total on all my characters. Right now on all my toons I have about 600 000pp total ,but I have gone as high as 2 million. I have one set of +5 mfp, again a gift, the best I have ever pulled is +4 and ironically enough that was in stormcleave about a year ago, that armor saw extended use on my paladin till the evasion nerf and then on my fighter till I got the +5. I have pulled 2 vorpals, and 3 paralysers, and 2 smiters in almost 2 years of play, and I play 6 days a week 3 to 4 hours. Yet I play regularly with people who have much more and many who have less than me. I would argue that there is very little content that cannot be done by a decently (not ubertwinked group) equipped group on normal, yes normal. Do you need better equipment to do it on elite, yes but elite is not normal it is elite for a reason. But nothing says you cannot do a level 12 quest on elite when you get to lvl 14, because it is a level 14 quest after all.
I see perma death groups regurally hitting lvl 10-14 now, and these guys have the strictest twink rules of anyone, so if they can do it there is no reason a standard group cannot do it.
Mod 5 has one quest that I would agree is not kind to anyone let alone casual players, and that is ghosts of perdition, in that quest it can all go wrong so fast so easy, and multiple deaths can occur. The abbot raid right now is not even played by 90% of the hardcore crowd just the intrepid few trying to figure it out and get it beat, so fear not most of us are joining you on the sidelines for that one. There is no other raid however that cannot be beaten easily by a decent group of players. You just have to know the strategy, and that has nothing to do with gear, it has to do with practice, the first time our guild beat the titan it too about an hour and a half with multiple deaths(remember this was the first success we had been trying for about 3 weeks without success). Now we can do it in about 8 minutes.. We are happy to share our knowledge with others and help them out as much as we can.

Ron there will never be parity between those who play a lot and those who don't its a simple matter of time/reward, the more time you spend playing the more likely you are to receive a nice reward. Some would argue right back at the casual players, why should you have the same as I do I played hard for all this.
So now we should be punished for all our efforts because you didn't put in the same effort. I am sorry Ron I just don't buy it. And that is why we are at polar opposites in this debate.

And if you had designed the game Ron there would probably be a different set of people playing it. I am not saying less, I am saying different, as the people who are against these changes, would have been the ones complaining in the exit interview how much they dislike how everything was bound and there was no chance at having a player driven economy of any type.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Died/Repaired much?

I've seen perm dmg EVERY time I have repaired after testing the death penalties on Risia, and have heard the same from alot of guildies..

I repaired in the Desert from two deaths and had 1 item take permanent dmg. I guess I am just lucky, or maybe I should have died more ... **** that Ranger speed boost!

[GeneralDiomedes]

Bound items still take damage, they just don't take permanent damage.

If you end up in an oozy area with no appropriate weapons, just bare-fist it.

Darn it, I've seen so many complaints about permanent damage from people who obviously didn't catch the part about binding .. I just thought it was another one of those.