Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[xman26]

Any idea's you care to add or just want to post more trash?

Leave things the way they are, there is nothing wrong with the system the way it is now, but changing it to "Make it better" when in fact it makes it worse is not the right idea. If they really wanted to do something that would be accepted by people who play the game, post ideas and see which ones get the most support and then impliment them on risia and see how people react. But to change things knowing it is going to affect their bottom line in a bad way is not the way to do things unless they really are trying ti kill off the game. Why else does it take them for ever to bring new content constantly want to nerf the game.

[BillBob]

I'm generally what you might consider an "optimist" but I tend to have little faith in "the general public" when it comes to carefully considering issues and thinking before leaping to conclusions.

But who knows, maybe I'm the only one who feels that way.

MT is not alone! In MMO's perception of what is true can often be more important than what is in fact true.

This perception drives Flavorofthemonths, class discrimination and a host of calls for nerfing and empowering when the difference in the numbers can be minuscule.

The loot in ddo is mostly all randomized and as such the playerbase cannot guarantee they will ever again obtain an item that becomes lost to decay or otherwise. While xp, for example, is guaranteed to be obtained over a period of time.

While the randomized loot system does keep it fresh and exciting, (you never know what you are gonna get!) it also puts tremendous value on what a player has already obtained. Losing these items to uncertainty is what i believe scares most of the players that are posting against this change.

This fear, whether it is statistically founded or not, will put more pressure on the players to perform well and contribute to the inevitable slide toward a more competent and restrictive playerbase. (elitist if you will) This can, and i would say will, put further pressure on the negative perceptions of class imbalance causing more discrimination of new players, classes and playstyles.

Relying totally on the randomness can lead to statistically improbable events that can become legendary stories that can twist the playerbase into thinking something that may not be true. I.E. '10 reaver raids on elite with no drops at all' this story could spead and lead the community into thinking that the raid loot has been seriously nerfed. Anyway, if such an event did occur i would assume such a negative play experience would cause some players to quite. (the dog must win some of the time!)

Bah i'm rambling... Cheers

[Ciaran]

To quote one of the devs somewhere, "You're not supposed to like it". It's a penalty. You died. It's supposed to hurt. This is what keeps you from using death as a tactic, or a transport system, or being just plain lazy about it ("Ah, it's been seven deaths against the big bad foozle, but we've taken him down to 15% HP, we should be able to kill him in only three or four more deaths, let's go!").

The penalty we have now (xp debt) is horrendously broken. This is the best alternative I've seen. It hits players where they will fee it the most, in their equipment. The rest of it (the debuff part) is, in my opinion, meaningless. It won't prevent casuality toward death, because you can just wait it out.

As a side effect, the item damage/binding thing may even help a bit to fix our (also horrendously broken) game economy. It also may not, it's hard to say, but at least it can't make it any worse (if it COULD be any worse, which is sincerely doubt).

And that, in a nutshell, is why I like it.

You like it for an effect you admit may or may not happen?

Targetting equipment is a lazy way of implementing a penalty system that matters. Do you honestly think it really hurts the powergamers who are giving away vorpals, paralyzers and +5 alignment and elemental burst equipment to make room in their bank for more? No, they have plenty of gear.

Turbine decided to give us +1 loot weekends frequently, they encouraged us to run high level quests to try for good loot. Targetting our items now to rectify the inevitable result of their decision is upsetting to me.

What business is it of yours if people are okay with getting no XP for a quest just so they can beat if they choose to recall and re-enter countless times? Nobody's forcing you to do that and you can make the choice to associate with people who do or not. I really dislike this attitude that we have to enforce certain playstyles.

I don't like dying - period. It's a pride thing for me...most of the time. Sometimes it's just funny (when it happens accidently or because I screwed up). But, the vast majority of the time dying holds a negative stigma for me. I also do my best not to die in quests so I can be effective and enjoy the game. When you're dead you are in limbo until somebody rezes you and are therefore not "playing" the game. You get people complaining that the XP Debt system is too harsh, yet they favor a system that really has the potential to hurt a lot more and be much more frustrating.

I still don't get the argument about XP debt being unfair...that's part of PnP rules. I think a better system would be to have XP debt on top of negative levels. Certainly capped players need to be stung by death as well as non-capped characters but I really don't think affecting our gear is a very good solution. It smacks of a blanket solution to a more complex problem. Still today you can hear people lamenting the blanket immunities some bosses have that make no since. There simply is no good reason why my tactically spec'd fighter can't occassionally get lucky and trip the titan or stun the queen.

Good items will continue to drop out of chests. People will continue to farm familiar quests for good items with little to no risk of death - I sincerely doubt the economy is going to change in any significant way with this death penalty.

If you really are concerned about the economy, have you asked the devs to scale back on the items that drop in chests?

Bottom line: death shouldn't be a strict thing in a video game, especially not one where elite mobs hit all but the most specialized of builds often and for a metric F-tonne and a failed save equals death. Sure, there are some people who really take meaning from having death really suck, but that doesn't appeal to a wider audience.

[xman26]

Any death penalty system that does not apply to a significant portion of the questing public (capped characters) IS broken. The new death penalty applies to all characters.

Ever stop to think that the reason it has little affect on capped players is because the lvl cap has been at 14 far to long? 3/4 of the toons in my guild alone are at 14. The cap should have been raised with the last mod release, but it wasn't. And personally, I hate being in XP debt even though I'm maxed out right now, it isn't much fun for my lower lvl characters either. I'm also one f the many part time players of the game, I play 2-3 nights a week for arounf 4-6 hours each time. This new system sucks and should not be implimented. People will leave this game because of this change, mark my words.

[Hendrik]

Leave things the way they are, there is nothing wrong with the system the way it is now, but changing it to "Make it better" when in fact it makes it worse is not the right idea. If they really wanted to do something that would be accepted by people who play the game, post ideas and see which ones get the most support and then impliment them on risia and see how people react. But to change things knowing it is going to affect their bottom line in a bad way is not the way to do things unless they really are trying ti kill off the game. Why else does it take them for ever to bring new content constantly want to nerf the game.

Thank you for posting your view.

Nothing wrong with using /death for a means of travel?

Nothing wrong with throwing bodies at a boss over and over to win in a battle of attrition?

Nothing wrong with no penalty for death to capped individuals? Even with off line regen of xp!

Nothing wrong with using death as a means to advance in a quest or gain access to areas?



You know that is exactly what they are doing. They posted ideas here, put it up on Risia to test, read feedback here and are looking at making changes. So they are doing exactly what you want them to do.

It takes so much time to make new content because it is all hand done.

Your conspiracy theories are not holding up to well.

[MysticTheurge]

Targetting equipment is a lazy way of implementing a penalty system that matters.

What's another system that provides a penalty that matters to all players, regardless of level?

[totmacher]

The main problem with people arguing here over the death penalty is the difference between being CAPPED and NOT CAPPED. You have to remember that the death penalty system was being re-evaluated mainly because at CAPPED it made no difference and at NOT CAPPED it hurt a hell of a lot. This re-balancing is trying to make it more even over the whole.

Some people are evaluating this at cap, where item durability means a lot more since XP is irrelevant. There arguments tend to be in the form, that 10% durability is a big pain in the butt, we wanna trade our items when we've outgrown that str +6 ring on our fighter when we got the dragon belt, etc.

Some people are evaluating this when leveling, when items are temporary things. These things will be outgrown the same but in different ways and "faster" as well. Items are not as important when leveling because the next better thing is around the corner.

This is where people are slamming into brick walls with each other here and it might be good to take into consideration that there are two different games at stake here.

[ArkoHighStar]

What's another system that provides a penalty that matters to all players, regardless of level?

something that goes by quest difficulty and not level

[moorewr]

It's interesting to see people's take on what's permanent and what's temporary. To me, XP was always permanent. You lost XP forever. You could earn other, new XP, but it's always XP you would've gotten otherwise anyway. The XP death penalty was absolutely permanent because you were always behind where you would've been if you hadn't died.

QFT

I hate XP debt! I've got two capped characters and I've been learning to ignore debt on them, but when I was working through levels 9-12, oh it hurt. It hurt because it cost time to replace, and time is the one commodity neither Turbine nor I can make more of.

[Dariun]

What's another system that provides a penalty that matters to all players, regardless of level?

How about a temporary debuff?

[CSFurious]

i do not think that the majority of the playerbase is going to "like it"

i personally play this game for fun, when it becomes a form of self-flagellation, i.e., this new proposed system, i think that many more people will move on & these are people who have been playing the game for over a year, pretty loyal IMO

you can say that players in all mmo's move on eventually, but why would Turbine want to change the game to: (1) make it less fun & (2) make it harder for new players

it makes no sense that Turbine would implement changes that would anger a majority of its player-base

for pete's sake, just look at the size of this thread, this should demonstrate to the devs the divide that exists over this proposal

To quote one of the devs somewhere, "You're not supposed to like it". It's a penalty. You died. It's supposed to hurt. This is what keeps you from using death as a tactic, or a transport system, or being just plain lazy about it ("Ah, it's been seven deaths against the big bad foozle, but we've taken him down to 15% HP, we should be able to kill him in only three or four more deaths, let's go!").

The penalty we have now (xp debt) is horrendously broken. This is the best alternative I've seen. It hits players where they will fee it the most, in their equipment. The rest of it (the debuff part) is, in my opinion, meaningless. It won't prevent casuality toward death, because you can just wait it out.

As a side effect, the item damage/binding thing may even help a bit to fix our (also horrendously broken) game economy. It also may not, it's hard to say, but at least it can't make it any worse (if it COULD be any worse, which is sincerely doubt).

And that, in a nutshell, is why I like it.

[miceelf88]

According to Eladrin, the reason the new death penalty is being implemented is NOT because of capped characters. It's because of complaints from newbies that xp debt is a turnoff for them and making them drop the game.

While much of our conversation is basically about how to make death cost something for capped characters, that's NOT, at least according to the devs, the reasoning behind the change.

[ccheath776]

I believe Eladrin was referring to permanent damage on Bound equipment. Not on unbound equipment.

There will be a mechanic for both unbound abd bound items. Eladrin never said it would be bound items only.
I knew eventually they would add this as my retribution is damaged beyond repair and sitting in the bank. I know eventually it will be available to repair so I keep it.

[ahpook]

...

The loot in ddo is mostly all randomized and as such the playerbase cannot guarantee they will ever again obtain an item that becomes lost to decay or otherwise. While xp, for example, is guaranteed to be obtained over a period of time.

While the randomized loot system does keep it fresh and exciting, (you never know what you are gonna get!) it also puts tremendous value on what a player has already obtained. Losing these items to uncertainty is what i believe scares most of the players that are posting against this change.

...

The devs did give an out on this problem - Bind the item if you don't want to lose it. For many casual players is this an easy and viable option because they don't have an army of alts to feed.

On Risia yesterday, I died 4 times (mostly due to soloing and testing). 3,500 Gold was my standard repair bill. Not a single point of permanent damage was accrued. IMHO, people are protesting too much over this change (that they have not even tried). Especially since the results are identical to the current system if you don't die (which is, after all, the goal).

[Justicesar]

In a perfect MMO xp point penalty works fine if content and level increases are there to make you cringe every time you die but that is a task that often times is impossible. I'm playing a cleric on 2nd sever and it is a bit more exciting actually trying not to die and keeping similiar level toons up and running. But even with that...in the back of my mind I know I'll soon cap out but because I enjoy the people I play with for the most part, I will stick it out for a bit. If numbers dwindle though I'm gone....at least for a bit.

[Dariun]

For many casual players is this an easy and viable option because they don't have an army of alts to feed.

I do too have an army of alts to feed!

Seriously, I cannot imagine binding my +5 mithril chain shirt unless it had over 70% permanent damage.

[neilkjos]

I love xp debt. It is the main thing which makes me play smart. It also keeps my blood pressure up and the game exciting. I think the way it is now is more than fair. I had no idea that there were any complaints about the current debt and item damage system. No debt if you die is insane in my opinion.

Why not have a poll? Post the question in the forums for us all to vote on. The majority wins.

[xman26]

If you don't see how broken the xp debt system is, then you are just refusing to look, and I can't help you.

I play the game 2-3 night a week, the XP debt systm, I'll say this again, IS NOT BROKEN! The fact you seem to think it is shows how out of touch you are with what will happen if this is implimented. The system is fine, I hate going into debt, the only reason it doesn't is because they have not upped the cap when they should have. I'd have to say at a min, 1/2 the toons on all server are capped because of the way Turbine has dragged their to raise the cap. One thing they could do to fix what you think is broken is, stop the XP regenerator in storm reach, give 0 xp to any quest that has been run 6 times or more at a given difficulty. I've run pop on elite 12 times and still get around 10k xp each run. These are two things that could be done that would make the xp debt system have some real sting to i while at the same time still allow people to work off the debt till they have run every single quest at all difficulty lvl 6 or more times. Another problem they have had since they had the game is the power leveling hit players take. If I make a group and 5 people are lvl 4 and only one is say 6 or 7, the group as a whole IS NOT benifiting from that one character, hell two, but if 1/2 or more of the group is made up of higher level characters, then yes, the others in the group would be benifiting from them.

[ArkoHighStar]

The devs did give an out on this problem - Bind the item if you don't want to lose it. For many casual players is this an easy and viable option because they don't have an army of alts to feed.

On Risia yesterday, I died 4 times (mostly due to soloing and testing). 3,500 Gold was my standard repair bill. Not a single point of permanent damage was accrued. IMHO, people are protesting too much over this change (that they have not even tried). Especially since the results are identical to the current system if you don't die (which is, after all, the goal).

and my cleric died once with 6000gp repair bill with 2 items with perm damage

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

I also posted this response in the "Feedback: Death Changes" thread, but as this thread seems to get more Dev & Player Attention, I figured I would re-post it here.
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I did some testing on the Risia Server over the weekend, and I have some real concerns over the new Death Penalty system.

1) Repair Costs: In my testing, a death was costing me between 3,000 - 6,000 GP in repairs for each and every death. I understand the desire for removing more plat from the economy, but I don't think this is the right way to do it. This becomes prohibitively expensive in a very short period of time.

2) Binding & Items: Binding items is not really a valid option for many players. I like the fact that I can hand down items to my other character whenever I "upgrade" with a better pull/purchase/trade... forcing players to bind all their items make them useless if you find something better. Besides, with higher levels and higher-level loot coming, it is quite likely that our current "Best" Weapons & Items will become old and outdated with future Mods and Level Cap increases, which makes the prospect of binding my items even less attractive. For example: My +1 Vorpal Kopesh... I expect after the cap raises, that I could pull a +3 Vorpal Kopesh of Something or another, that would be an "upgrade" to my current weapon. So my choices are to Bind my +1, making it a waste if I ever upgrade, or run a REAL risk of a LOT of permanent damage if I don't bind, in order to be able to pass it down to another character later.

3) Discouraging Playing Capped Characters: The new Death Penalty actually discourages playing my highest-level characters. Right now, the only real reason to play my capped characters is for loot... for them, and for my lower-level characters. Either I pull items to hand down, or I pull items to upgrade my high-levels, and hand down their current equipment to my lower levels. With the new Death Penalty, I am forced to Bind my items to protect them, eliminating any chance of handing them down, or I run a really serious rick of a LOT of permanent damage... making them useless to hand down. Additionally, the benefit of Capping is that you don't ever "lose" anything for running them and possibly dying. The new system will seriously drain their Plat and their items, giving a real reason to NOT play them? This doesn't make sense. This system seems to really force players to play new/lower-level characters and retire their current capped characters and to avoid the newest content, for fear of a lot of item damage and repair costs. I think Turbine runs the risk of losing a lot of subscribers over this issue. While I don't have that many high-level characters, I don't want to be forced to play my lowbies, because it is too expensive or to dangerous to run my high-levels.

4) Negative Levels - There is an inheirant problem with granting Negative Levels. Let's look at it from a Sorcerer's point of view. A Sorc dies, and gets -1 level... ok, not THAT big a deal, but say they had nearly full SP... they just lost SP for dying... and they will not gain that SP back from having that negative level go away... or the HP from the Negative Level either... so you cost the Sorc SP & HP, and the Cleric SP or Gold (for a Wand) to re-heal that Sorc. And it only gets worse with additional negative levels. You hit a Sorc for 2-3-4 Negative Levels, and in most cases, he is now useless until they go away. -4 or -6 to the DC's of his spells is a HUGE hit to his damage/cc abilities. Or from a Melee point of view... a couple of negative levels, and you can no longer hit the mobs effectively, making you a burden to the party... and the HP the Cleric will have to heal once they go away? Even more of a drain on the party. To test this, grab a bunch of L14's and go run VON 3... go to the Beholders and let them hit everyone with an Enervate or two... now try killing the Beholders without curing the Negative Levels first... chances are that everyone will die (Especially on Elite... even in VON 3).

5) Negative Levels #2: The Negative Levels actually ENCOURAGE players to AFK after dying. You are on a bad run, and just died for the 4th time... Your only real option is to AFK for 4 minutes to let the Negative Levels wear off, because with -4 levels, you are more likely to die then to be able to contribute to the party. Then when paired with the Item Wear, you are more likely to recall out to repair and get rid of your Negative Levels, then re-enter (Causing a -20% XP Penalty - which was what I thought the change was supposed to avoid XP Penalties).


I am not one to usually complain about new features/changes to the game, but I think this one has some VERY significant drawbacks, and could be EXTREMELY detrimental to the game. Additionally, I think this really falls under a "Major Change to the Fundamentals of the Game", that really needs to be avoided. Things like the Human Versatility change, Divine Favor & Paladin Aura Nerf, Enhancement System changes, Balance Skill Change, Diplomacy Skill Change, and Evasion Fix come to mind. These were all MAJOR changes to the underlying system of the game that ended up invalidating builds, and causing a lot of problems (especially because they were not accompianied by a Complete Respec). When you make fundamental changes to the Game, that could have serious implications to a large portion of the player base, with no way to change/fix around the changes, you create major problems.

Yes, I know that some of the changes I listed above were needed changes, like HV being quite overpowered... but the Batman Build was designed around that (and the old Enhancement System), and the combination of changes created basically useless characters. Or the Evasion "Fix"... it was originally stated by the Lead DDO Developer that "we are not planning to fix Evasion"... then a few months later it was fixed. Now that change was needed, but again, without the ability to fix character design based around existing game mechanics, you gimped many characters. I personally had to reroll my Wizard when you "Fixed" Diplomacy, because he was designed to use that, and the "fix" made him utterly useless (Yes, I know he should have been a Sorc, but I rolled him a few weeks after Head-Start, when Wizards were in-fashion, and Dip'ing a NPC gave significantly better End-Rewards).

The Death Penalty, as is currently stands, is the closest approximation of the PnP Death Penalty that can reasonably be implemented in a Real-Time-Combat system like DDO. I know the concern of the Devs and some players that while levelling up, the Death Penalty is a barrier to progress (especially Levels 10-14, until you cap), but on the flip side, as soon as you cap, the Death Penalty means absolutely nothing. Personally, I think there should be SOME reward for being Capped, and I think that not worrying about XP and Death Penalties is a very nice reward for Capping a character. Changing that system to be more penalizing to Capped Characters (as they will likely have the best and most expensive items, and they are usually only played to Raid & Loot), is a bad precedent.

The proposed new system will slow down players, force recalls, and discourage playing of capped characters, all of which, I believe, are not good paths to pursue.