Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[Ron]

What if, you take damage equal to twice the level of penalty you have?

First death between shrines: 2%
Second death between shrines: 4%
Third death between shrines: 6%
Fourth death between shrines: 8%
Fifth or more death between shrines: 10%

With all the same caps as the Touch of Dolurrh, so that you can't get 10% until higher levels. If you keep dying past hitting the ToD cap though, you keep taking the damage each time you die. So repeated deaths could still end up taking out your equipment, it just takes a bit longer, and there's less penalty for the first "Oops" death.

Thoughts?

That is the gist of it. Buried back several pages and in the Risia DP Thread too.

Ah, thanks.

You know, that's interesting. I think you guys (Arko/MT) may be on to something there. Very nice work guys.

How would it interact with the damage cap for the character's level? You know, this part of El's proposal:

At the moment of death, all non-stacking, equipped items that your character is wearing will take a percentage of item wear. Each item will take damage equal to (Character Level * ¾, round down, maximum 10)% of their original maximum durability, or:

1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14+
0%	1%	2%	3%	3%	4%	5%	6%	6%	7%	8%	9%	9%	10%

[MysticTheurge]

Ah, thanks.

You know, that's interesting. I think you guys (Arko/MT) may be on to something there. Very nice work guys.

How would it interact with the damage cap for the character's level? You know, this part of El's proposal:

It replaces the damage cap by character level with the Touch of Dolurhh cap by character level under my system.

That is, at a level where you can only get up to the third level of Touch of Dolurhh you cap out at 6% damage per death.

Arko's system uses an alternative that doesn't cap by level but caps by difficulty level of the quest.

[Eladrin]

It replaces the damage cap by character level with the Touch of Dolurhh cap by character level under my system.

That is, at a level where you can only get up to the third level of Touch of Dolurhh you cap out at 6% damage per death.

It's easier to remember than the current progression as well, which is one of the things I like about it.

[xman26]

Someone's gonna have to help me out here because I must be missing something

1) I absolutely DESPISE the XP penalty on death, It's extremely hard to gain XP in the Necropolis because of it, If you are doing Ghosts, you can expect to die at least once, and there are no surprises if you die more then that. It IS a nice surprise if you don't die at all. So you get all that debt in very difficult quests trying to cap. You can't avoid it, the punitive nature of XP debt on death is most harsh against those not capped, and insignificant on those who are capped.

2) All my fighters have at least 1 level of item defense, and one of my fighters has three full levels of it, I tell you it makes a HUGE difference. Yea, all of them get stuff damaged, but it's not the end of the world... to date, And I have PLAYED ALOT, I have lost 1 item to permanent damage 1 pair of trapblast goggles. And yes, my barbarian must make the kobold smith in House D shake with rage after he comes back after a quest with a good majority of his stuff damaged to at least 25% levels.

So what is the real issue here ? In order to make death count, you've now put a penalty in place that is pretty fair to those leveling but most punitive to those capped with all the UBER UBER gear ? I don't understand it. If it bothers you SO much, then you can get 400 free agent favor and only repair in the Desert, there you go...no permanent damage, and bound items are immune anyways. SO I really don't see what all the "I'm gonna leave" and "You will kill the game" posts are about. Hell, if that super sword is so awesome then bind it, but personally, I will never use the bind stone, too much chance of someone else in my stable or guild needing it down the road. So I have a choice, and I choose not to bind. And in doing so I fully accept that my precious foozle might get damaged. Cry me a river...

So, I like the changes! I think they are a fresh approach to death that equally stings all the levels rather then the level 11-13's the most. Maybe now, the sacrificial lamb tactics will change in the game. And as for the earlier post that stated that "oops I've got damage this isn't worth it and so the player drops" are you telling me that you've NEVER had a quest where someone got upset over the XP debt they received and then dropped ? I don't believe it happened when you were 14, but I bet it happened quite a few times before you capped. There is no LOWER feeling in this game then to be 2000 XP from level and then taking it in the head a few times and come out of the quest 3000 or even 4000 from level. It's a horrible horrible sinking feeling when that happens.

I think the game will be stronger for these changes. I like them, I like them alot.
Buzz

I disagree, there is nothing wrong with the XP debt system, I had no issue with it at lvl5, nor lvl10 or when I myself ran the Ghost quests in the Necro. Hell, I was 20K in the hole after doing 1 quest, I simply ran more quests to make up the debt Big Deal. I HATE BOUND ITEMS, it sucks and takes up slots and you can't auction off junk you dont wont, only sell it at a vendor for a major fraction of what you could get for it from someone who might actually want/need it. If items are to be bound, there needs to be a system to unbind them, this should include items that become bound naturally. I hate this new system, it sucks and people will be leaving the game because of. Call it the feather that broke the camels back. People are already fed up with the draging ass from the devs when it comes to fixing bugs, making new content and most of all, raising the lvl cap which is to include the fact they are only raising it 2 lvl with this next mod even though they have lvl17 quests in the game. If I worke for Turbine, I'd make sure people understood that changing the game for those who cry about it is not the answer as you will please less than you will **** off. I know of more than 50 people in game who plan on leaving if this comes to be with the new mod update, they are sick and tired of the nerfing that goes on the devs draging their feet on updates, bug fixes and other stuff. Ever wonder why they have been offering a free 30 days paid account time to those who refer new people to the game. I can gauruntee you it isn't because of the holiday season, its because people are leaving the game. It'll be worse if these new mods go into place.

[Hendrik]

I disagree, there is nothing wrong with the XP debt system, I had no issue with it at lvl5, nor lvl10 or when I myself ran the Ghost quests in the Necro. Hell, I was 20K in the hole after doing 1 quest, I simply ran more quests to make up the debt Big Deal. I HATE BOUND ITEMS, it sucks and takes up slots and you can't auction off junk you dont wont, only sell it at a vendor for a major fraction of what you could get for it from someone who might actually want/need it. If items are to be bound, there needs to be a system to unbind them, this should include items that become bound naturally. I hate this new system, it sucks and people will be leaving the game because of. Call it the feather that broke the camels back. People are already fed up with the draging ass from the devs when it comes to fixing bugs, making new content and most of all, raising the lvl cap which is to include the fact they are only raising it 2 lvl with this next mod even though they have lvl17 quests in the game. If I worke for Turbine, I'd make sure people understood that changing the game for those who cry about it is not the answer as you will please less than you will **** off. I know of more than 50 people in game who plan on leaving if this comes to be with the new mod update, they are sick and tired of the nerfing that goes on the devs draging their feet on updates, bug fixes and other stuff. Ever wonder why they have been offering a free 30 days paid account time to those who refer new people to the game. I can gauruntee you it isn't because of the holiday season, its because people are leaving the game. It'll be worse if these new mods go into place.

Irony.

[totmacher]

I'm really digging Hendrik's proposal

In addition to the Touch of Dollurh, that wouldn't force someone to recall if they died 4-5 times in a really bad attempt at a quest to repair. It also adds penalties to dying over and over instead of one lump sum from a random beholder ray.

[tekn0mage]

Hendrik, MT, all these guys are proposing a permutation of the proposed system.

There are MANY people (so far 2 to 1) that are *COMPLETELY* against the whole notion of item damage. Play all you want with penalty and reduced stats. However, don't touch the items. Or you will be seriously sorry...

People work hard for the items they receive. Sometimes it costs them EVERYTHING to get the one item that they want. Sometimes, they get extremely lucky. Items have sentimental value to people as well. Fine if you DON'T understand that, but don't you dare cross this line, Turbine. I guarantee you will feel the effects of it through your subs. This one will be impossible to recover from.

You have already *lost* many people. The process of losing customers has GOT to stop. This just further divides the population.

This argument about needing loot to disappear is completely irrelevant. As we level up, loot gets less useful. Automatically, the loot tapers off in value and usefulness as the game progresses. There is no need to ARTIFICIALLY control the loot by introducing this ridiculous system. A +1 Weapon of Badassness won't even be effective at higher levels to be useful. There is no need to destroy the thing through a punitive and arbitrary system devised by a few "purists" on the forums who have, since day one, complained how "easy" the game is, yet have done no significant trailblazing of their own. With exception of "post counts" and "strategy guides" that simply re-hash the cutting edge findings of people such as myself (and other brave souls), these "armchair quarterbacks" have little experience at the bleeding edge and how much dying really occurs there. Without other people dying A LOT, you wouldn't even have the information you have.

[Strykersz]

One thing I'm not certain I've seen answered; Do the item defense enhancements prevent death damage?

[moorewr]

One thing I'm not certain I've seen answered; Do the item defense enhancements prevent death damage?

Seems they do not.

Hendrik, MT, all these guys are proposing a permutation of the proposed system.

There are MANY people (so far 2 to 1) that are *COMPLETELY* against the whole notion of item damage. Play all you want with penalty and reduced stats. However, don't touch the items. Or you will be seriously sorry...

Let me turn this around. Given that it seems clear that XP debt is going away, what system would you propose to replace it that inflicts sufficient pain for dying to meet the devs requirements?

[Hakushi]

If this system is here to stay, reduce the repair cost a lot more than only 25% and reduce the chances of permanent damage by 5 or more instead of only by 2 because most people will have to repair 5 times more items at one shot than they used to do before.

[Serpent]

Perhaps instead of all equipped items receive damage upon death, we have say a 20% chance of an item receiving the appropriate level amount of damage per death. for example if you are wearing 14 items, each item has a 20% chance or recieving a 10% of durability worth of damage at death, this then has to be repaired at a vendor, with appropriate amount of possible damage to the weapon.

Also make it so those who rez out don't get item damage. They are technically already receiving a penalty for reentering quest. and then increase reentry penalty. make this increase depend on the level of the quest and the difficulty it is on.

Tek is correct in stating that items remove themselves. Remember level ten when we all looked for +4 items. Those same items are now sold to steppy. This will grow as time goes on. Lower items will be removed and higher items will stay on your toons, since they are so hard to find and so useful to yourself.

Perhaps the amount of loot inflation is due to the plat farmers in a way. I know I see many on my server and the amount of mail they send has to be indicative of there proliferation.

[moorewr]

Sanity check.

Went and got my level 14 cleric killed in the vale some more.

Averaging 310p per death for repairs (can you tell his gear wasn't Totally Ubah in September?) and 0-1 points of permanent damage. It's still less of a concern to me than the debuff, especially the bugged debuff we have on Risia right now (-121 modified to hit anyone?), and less expensive than paying for a Raise Dead scroll.

[Chelsa]

tekn0mage;1478398]
There are MANY people (so far 2 to 1) that are *COMPLETELY* against the whole notion of item damage. Play all you want with penalty and reduced stats. However, don't touch the items. Or you will be seriously sorry...

So, your end argument against item damage is a threat.

In a nut shell, the devs have chosen a mechanic that actually punishes us for dieing. Both sides make compelling arguments for and against item damage in the new death penalty system, but ultimately, (this tread supports this concept) loot is the thing players care the most about. Thus, we have, a true death penalty. If it were not then nobody would care.

The real question seems to be, will players ever accept a real penalty and not some temporary inconvenience.

Should be interesting to see where this goes.

[GeneralDiomedes]

The real question seems to be, will players ever accept a real penalty and not some temporary inconvenience.

Should be interesting to see where this goes.

The stupid thing is, there is a perfectly acceptable alternative.

Buy some mundane +5 gear at the brokers, bind it, and go about your oh-so-difficult trailblazing. Or don't bind it and just throw it away when you are done. It will take you .. what .. 200 deaths to finally break it anyhow.

The true cost of trailblazing is in wands, pots and scrolls, caster recalls, and if you are in a PUG .. keeping people from dropping like flies. I mean really.

[Hendrik]

I'm really digging Hendrik's proposal

In addition to the Touch of Dollurh, that wouldn't force someone to recall if they died 4-5 times in a really bad attempt at a quest to repair. It also adds penalties to dying over and over instead of one lump sum from a random beholder ray.

Not mine tot!

That was a copy/paste from something MT posted.
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...3&postcount=48

[Chelsa]

Should have added:

If you don't die allot, then you don't have to bind. If you do, for whatever reason, then you should bind. It forces a hard choice, but then again, that is why it is called a penalty.

[Hendrik]

The stupid thing is, there is a perfectly acceptable alternative.

Buy some mundane +5 gear at the brokers, bind it, and go about your oh-so-difficult trailblazing. Or just throw it away when you are done. It will take you .. what .. 200 deaths to finally break it anyhow.

The true cost of trailblazing is in wands, pots and scrolls, caster recalls, and if you are in a PUG .. keeping people from dropping like flies. I mean really.

Support the Brokers and the AH!! They need to make a living too, families to feed. We can always wear our elite gear on the PoP loot run or the VoN1-4 speed run.


::This message brought to you by the Coin Lords, Free Arlos Foundation, and the letter J.

[Chelsa]

The stupid thing is, there is a perfectly acceptable alternative.

Buy some mundane +5 gear at the brokers, bind it, and go about your oh-so-difficult trailblazing. Or don't bind it and just throw it away when you are done. It will take you .. what .. 200 deaths to finally break it anyhow.

The true cost of trailblazing is in wands, pots and scrolls, caster recalls, and if you are in a PUG .. keeping people from dropping like flies. I mean really.

Interesting solution, but probably not practical for most players. Most people are short of space and have builds that require good items to be truly effective. Plus the difficulty is tougher to gauge at high levels, so not going in twinked my not offered you the best strategy to solve the problem.

Again their is a solution, but it forces a hard choice. Bind items.

[Gornin]

I will flirt with nuerosis once again.

I still have not seen any address by Dev or forum members how this is fair to those without an awesome rig, unreliable ISP or the issue of bugs. Now we are faced with higher costs and possible loss of items because of not be able to afford the best rig, or the ISP in your area is unreliable due to things outside your control and then just the simple game itself. This penalty only caters to those who have plenty of resources to play this game often, spend real money on higher end rigs, and live in areas that have a more reliable ISP. At least half of my deaths are due to the above situations.

It will be more expensive, will increase the rate of permanant damage leading to the loss of hard won items and will just discourage and frustrate the casual player. So you say bind. I should not be forced to bind to protect my equipment so that it becomes useless to me as a possible income source when I find something better.

While I find the MT/Arko idea easier to deal with, I still have not seen any response on my idea about the XP pool used for crafting and/or binding of items. Have XP loss from this pool in addition to the debuff. It will limit your ability to craft or bind items. It is a penalty that causes you to have limited access portions of the game if you are not careful, but will not cause loss of money and items because you don't have the best rig, ISP or plenty of time to play.

I never found the XP hit on death to be a negative experience. I always thought it was appropiate considering in PnP you lose a level, but with the game mechanics, it was lessened somewhat to an acceptable level. Even at cap it was frustrating to see the red. I never use /death to travel or evade content. Guess I am the exception according to all the posts that reference " so many use /death as a poor mans' teleport". I only saw this done by people that seem to be the higher end players. I guess that red did not bother them since they play so much. Tired of people saying I didn't have a penalty since I was capped. If it bothers me and I have to work at regaining it, then it is a penalty. I know I failed to complete the objective without dying.

EDIT - And I still maintain that this idea is not DnD.

[alans240]

Damage only applies to equipped non-stackable equipment.



This means throwing weapons and ammunition also won't be affected.

I wonder if that's going to apply to returners as well.

Thank you for the clarification.