The Dog House

[UtherSRG]

*points to his last sentence*



How about you actually give a complete list. (I left off the THREE you decided to mention) And FYI, I see many a caster still using Scorching Ray at high levels.

All cure spells (non mass)
All inflect spells (non mass)
Heal
Harm
Nimbus of Light
Close Wounds
Bestow Curse
Polar Ray
Chill Touch
Shocking Grasp
Slay Living
Contagion
Ray of Exhaustion
Ghoul Touch
Melf's Acid Arrow
Touch of Idiocy
Ray of Enfeeblement
Searing Light
Otto's Resistible Dance
Otto's Irresistible Dance

As MT noted, the healing/inflicting spells use a different mechanic altogether, and I will discount them entirely.

Polar ray would be improved in the same way Disintegrate would. I think Searing Light and Melf's Acid Arrow also function as a ray (although currently invisible) and so would also be improved.

But again, how many of these spells are used often as offensive spells in a situation that would be degraded by having Touch AC implemented. Most of the listed spells are either buff/debuff spells. Anything that requires a caster to get up close and personal with a mob is something I don't even mem on my casters. How many of the rest of the list are ranged touch spells that are not rays?

[MysticTheurge]

But again, how many of these spells are used often as offensive spells in a situation that would be degraded by having Touch AC implemented.

The truth is, these spells are far more harmful to PCs when cast by NPCs than they are to NPCs when cast by PCs.

Adding more methods to avoid them would benefit PCs more than it would harm them. And I say this as a person who mainly plays a cleric with almost no dexterity.

[Taojeff]

Here are this weeks requests.

More balance.

First, let me applaud the devs for taking the +15 for the 5th attack and changing it to +10. We do not need anymore to hit, as it is the monsters are already very easy to hit at high levels. It is rare when you do not have a plethora of buffs to assist you.

Ok, here is my list of things that need to be balanced.

1. Maximize either needs to be removed or made to be like its PnP counterpart.
2. Why are things that are immune to crits still effected by spell crits...this should be fixed also. If I cannot get a crit with a blade, why would a cleric get a crit with blade barrier. But that aside, I think you would see the balance restored quite a bit if you just make monsters that are immune to critical hits, immune to spell crits also. I think the whole spell crit system is unbalanced, but this one small concession would go a long way to balancing it.
3. Where are all the counters to PC casting. Where is the dispelling of persistent AOE spell effects life firewall and acid fog. Come on, if an enemy is intelligent enough to have a spell, probably be smart enough to use it. Casters already debuff, which is great. And I understand because the nature of targeting etc, this might be hard to implement. But I am assuming firewalls are some kind of object, so I am guessing you could code it to have enemies be able to dispel them. All this talk of nerfing firewalls and other AOE or casters is not needed (cept maybe the about maximize), you just need to give enemies something to counter with. Right now casters have to many GOD sticks. And why you are at it, please fix caster spell AI all around. I would like to see some of those rangers in MOD 6 (you know the ones with scales), using snare, spike growth, barkskin. Or even cooler have em summon pets. I cannot really believe these guys are rangers when I never see them cast ranger spells, or use many shot or the like. Generally speaking, this game would be a lot more fun and challenging in my opinion if enemies used all the resources that they have available to them.

Example is Tears of Dhakann. When this quest first came out, on normal the casters would hit you with sleet storm and then start hitting you with searing light. I never knew why this was changed, it is super easy now.

Anyway, more next week

[Swordalot]

Oh, I know that, Uther knows that, and you know that. However, if only the first description that I quoted was followed, some others may not have realized just what it would have meant game mechanic wise, hence my post.

Oh, right. I figure anyone who would comment would either know what Still Spell does or hit the d20 online
But yeah. Still Spell = awesomeness.

Back on the current debate, I can't say that touch attacks for rays would really be that bad. Like I said earlier, it's safe to assume *at least* 14 dex for a +2 to-hit, +8 BAB at 16, and a Greater Heroism for a +4, giving a total +14. That's pretty much good enough for a non-rogue/ranger.

[MysticTheurge]

Back on the current debate, I can't say that touch attacks for rays would really be that bad. Like I said earlier, it's safe to assume *at least* 14 dex for a +2 to-hit, +8 BAB at 16, and a Greater Heroism for a +4, giving a total +14. That's pretty much good enough for a non-rogue/ranger.

Not to mention that there are other places to get more if you want it.

Haste is another +1.
Weapon Focus (Spell) could be added for another +1
Cat's Grace or a +4 dex item is up to +2 while a +6 item is +3 (depending how low or high your base dex is)
Elven, Drow or Halfling Dexterity is another +1

Not to mention all those spells that give your enemies an AC penalty.

Heck, I wouldn't even be opposed to Wizards and Sorcerers getting Dexterity as a secondary set of stat enhancements like Clerics get Charisma.

And from there you can go on to add items that do even more. GWF (Spell), or just flat bonuses to hit with touch attacks.

The biggest thing for me is that there should be more ways to defend against these spells when there are NPCs casting them on us besides just strafing.

[Missing_Minds]

As MT noted, the healing/inflicting spells use a different mechanic altogether, and I will discount them entirely.

The problem is, with the change you can not discount them. The reason why? They cause damage to undead (cure) and living things (inflict)

DDO's current mechanic is "if they are in x radius, and you have line of sight (aka not blocked) spell instantly hits) If you are causing damage, they are going to be required to make a roll now. Will it effect any party healing? I sure as heck hope not, and in this I do not argue.

Polar ray would be improved in the same way Disintegrate would. I think Searing Light and Melf's Acid Arrow also function as a ray (although currently invisible) and so would also be improved.

But again, how many of these spells are used often as offensive spells in a situation that would be degraded by having Touch AC implemented. Most of the listed spells are either buff/debuff spells. Anything that requires a caster to get up close and personal with a mob is something I don't even mem on my casters. How many of the rest of the list are ranged touch spells that are not rays?

Invisible? I've yet to ever see a searing light or acid arrow that was invisible. What is invisible for the most part (I've actually seen the ray one time when cast by an NPC), and I forgot off my list, Enervation.

Just because you may not mem them does NOT make them any less important. You can not consider your case alone, you must consider the game.

All spells I listed there (including enervation) are those that require touch or range touch. All would fall suit to the change you are wanting therefore must be considered.

And again, you've not yet even considered the moving combat issue as of yet. I am hoping that Codog's fixes for mod 6 will solve most of the issues, but when adding in spells, that now adds in a whole new set of issues. (if you do not understand this, please go back and read. I'm not going to re hash all of the range issues again.)

Oh yes, Should the change be implemented, I want Niac changed. I want the spell to lose its save or nothing also lowering the dice damage it does to bring it in line with other spells. (which probably means d6, max of 5.)

MT, the though that "oh.. they can just wear a dex item" to help it out. Where? What item slot will they be willing to lose? Those that play constantly and run raids.. maybe. Buy plat or have access to lots of plat, maybe. your casual player? doubtful. A person who hasn't made 1750 on any character or has no high lvl character, even more doubtful. Also, how many builds can afford to buy dex and STILL do what they want to do. Yeah... not many. This is not a case like evasion where they now have to change armor and still wear armor. This is a case where they could lose something they can not replace.

And I should have stated this earlier. I am actually for them correctly putting in touch attacks. It would just require a lot, and I mean a lot of re working, mostly due to how they have had the combat for so long. I'm playing devils advocate here even though I'm not a Xoriat. This may sound counter with my statement of I'd quit, but you'd have to know how I am to understand it. If a singular change was going to upset me to the point of quitting, Mod 3 with the broken ranged attacks would have done it.

[MysticTheurge]

The problem is, with the change you can not discount them. The reason why? They cause damage to undead (cure) and living things (inflict)

DDO's current mechanic is "if they are in x radius, and you have line of sight (aka not blocked) spell instantly hits) If you are causing damage, they are going to be required to make a roll now. Will it effect any party healing? I sure as heck hope not, and in this I do not argue.

Yes, but DDO already has "touch" spells (shocking grasp, slay living) and the healing and inflict spells ignore this, even though they're touch spells in D&D.

And even in D&D you don't have to roll to hit when healing your allies.

MT, the though that "oh.. they can just wear a dex item" to help it out. Where? What item slot will they be willing to lose?

Like I said, this is quite similar to the evasion change. You can choose to adjust and adapt or not. In fact, you have even more ways to adapt because unlike evasion you have the choice to just stop using Ranged Touch spells.

[Missing_Minds]

Yes, but DDO already has "touch" spells (shocking grasp, slay living) and the healing and inflict spells ignore this, even though they're touch spells in D&D.

And even in D&D you don't have to roll to hit when healing your allies.

Are we now just saying the same thing? That is how it currently works, but would have to change if touch attacks are implemented. And no, I'm not saying that party healing would require touch attacks at all.

Like I said, this is quite similar to the evasion change. You can choose to adjust and adapt or not. In fact, you have even more ways to adapt because unlike evasion you have the choice to just stop using Ranged Touch spells.

AC replaces AC, but I fail to see how DEX replaces focus items, striders, etc. That is my point.
But you are correct about just stop using such spells. *snickers* oh man... meleers would throw a fit even more about how unbalanced things are. Why? Think about all of the AOE, and even more PKs/Fingers casters would throw.

[MysticTheurge]

Are we now just saying the same thing? That is how it currently works, but would have to change if touch attacks are implemented. And no, I'm not saying that party healing would require touch attacks at all.

No. Everyone but you is saying that Cure and Inflict spells in DDO already fail to use the "touch" mechanics that are in place and so there's no reason to assume that adding touch attacks would force those spells to switch to using the "touch" mechanics.

AC replaces AC, but I fail to see how DEX replaces focus items, striders, etc. That is my point.

Yeah, but not everyone who was using evasion in full plate had the dex to make up the difference in their AC. This might mean they'd need to pick up a dex item. In that case it's exactly the same situation.

Moreover, as a caster, you don't even have to rely on a dex item. Cast Cat's Grace on yourself and you're up 2 points in ranged to-hit with no item required. And you have other spells at your disposal too. Trade your +30% striders for some +6 dex boots and cast Expeditious Retreat on yourself. Now you're up 6 points of dex and only down 5% in movement speed.

But that aside, dex not replacing other items is really kind of the point. It doesn't have to replace those items. You may have to choose which kind of thing you want to be good at. And I see no problem with that.

[Hvymetal]

Are we now just saying the same thing? That is how it currently works, but would have to change if touch attacks are implemented. And no, I'm not saying that party healing would require touch attacks at all.




AC replaces AC, but I fail to see how DEX replaces focus items, striders, etc. That is my point.
But you are correct about just stop using such spells. *snickers* oh man... meleers would throw a fit even more about how unbalanced things are. Why? Think about all of the AOE, and even more PKs/Fingers casters would throw.

Not really, that pretty much is all that is thrown out there by a large MAJORITY of the casters now......

[HumanJHawkins]

Hey Dworkin,

The following is an example of what I was talking about when I suggested moving some issues right to the top of the sheet...

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...42#post1526742

Maybe they don't need to get moved to the top, but it seems like ideas that get tons of /signed and no opposition should get some sort of flag so the developers can quickly and easily see, "Hey, here is one that a lot of people want and pretty much everyone agrees on."

My 2 cents... Cheers!

[HumanJHawkins]

One more suggestion for the sheet...

Currently, when the thing you are casting a ray spell at dies before the spell goes off, the spell shoots at the ceiling. This is often lame because there was another Ogre right behind the one that dies and the ray would have hit it if it worked like an arrow.

Why not just have the ray go off in the direction it was aimed when the Ogre died. Or if that is technologically difficult, how about have the ray just shoot straight out from the caster, who could then learn to face the mobs when firing? Pretty much anything would be better than straight up.

[BlueLightBandit]

One more suggestion for the sheet...

Currently, when the thing you are casting a ray spell at dies before the spell goes off, the spell shoots at the ceiling. This is often lame because there was another Ogre right behind the one that dies and the ray would have hit it if it worked like an arrow.

Why not just have the ray go off in the direction it was aimed when the Ogre died. Or if that is technologically difficult, how about have the ray just shoot straight out from the caster, who could then learn to face the mobs when firing? Pretty much anything would be better than straight up.

Other spells do the same thing. A Fireball fizzles if the targeted mob dies between the time you hit the button and the time the character animation takes to actually cast the spell. So you both lose the spellpoints and components, not to mention starting the timer until you can cast this spell again. Fireball, unlike a ray spell, is a psuedo-aoe spell, so it would still be effective after the target dies.

[Draiden]

Codog, none of the raid armor sets or armor sets rewarded for collectibles are Mithril Chain Shirts. There are some really sick armor sets in the game right now, but I feel that this armor type has been greatly overlooked.

Is this on purpose? Or just an oversight?

[winsom]

There should be the possibility of a very high touch AC character or monster that can avoid most rays. This would make high DEX and Deflection bonuses more interesting in DDO, as well as giving the monk character something he can do better than any other class. i.e. in D&D my 15th monk can get Touch AC over 23 before adding in defensive fighting, dodge or haste. In DDO that AC could be slightly-higher due to better items and cheaper buffs. I've played in adventures where we know the opposition is throwing out Disintegrates that would almost never miss most characters, and yet they need to roll 17s if not 20s to hit my monk. Guess which character volunteers to get the attention of the enemy ray-casters? The monk has a useful role here, as would other characters that can get similar touch AC values. What useful role is the monk going to serve in DDO?

DDO's Defensive Fighting stance would be more useful as that extra 2 AC would help to defeat Touch Attacks. Holding down the Shift button could count as the Total Defense option in D&D and that defensive action would boost Touch AC by 4. The Tumble skill (which is both Shift + movement) could add +6 to Touch AC. The Mobility feat could be changed to add a bonus to Touch Attack AC. If DDO monsters are found to have "too much" attack bonus (as i think they do), then Mobility could grant +4 to Touch AC (more with enhancements), making it a useful feat. I think these would be useful tactical options for DDO's action-based combat.

Back on the current debate, I can't say that touch attacks for rays would really be that bad. Like I said earlier, it's safe to assume *at least* 14 dex for a +2 to-hit, +8 BAB at 16, and a Greater Heroism for a +4, giving a total +14. That's pretty much good enough for a non-rogue/ranger.

Thats true. As character and monster levels increase the touch attack hit-probability quickly reaches 95% I would be happy if elder beholders could occasionally roll 1s, even if that means they can also roll 20s to crit.

The lower level casters and monsters that use rays would be affected the most by the addition of touch attacks to DDO. I think this is a good thing though. Casters have a variety of spells to chose from and they can use burning hands or magic missile when they don't want to risk a miss with Niac's. I think the game would be greatly improved by adding touch attacks to rays because right now too many monsters that do not have good touch attack values are using Searing Light and Scorching Ray as their "I win" button, since they essentially can not miss with it. While I enjoy the danger these monsters create for our heroes, I see that freebie damage as cheating at D&D-gameplay. Higher level versions of these creatures should only miss on a 1 rolled against most PCs.

[UtherSRG]

Codog, none of the raid armor sets or armor sets rewarded for collectibles are Mithril Chain Shirts. There are some really sick armor sets in the game right now, but I feel that this armor type has been greatly overlooked.

Is this on purpose? Or just an oversight?

I bet there will be a way to add "Mithral" to armor with the Mod 6.

[Coldin]

I've made some posts and threads before about why tumble should change. Nothing I've suggested so far to improve the usability of the skill has been implemented yet, so today, I think I'm just going to keep it simple. I'll post here in the Dog House since this isn't an over-arching explanation. Merely, this is just the changes I feel should be implemented, from small to large.

Small Changes

• Tumbling should always grant a +2 Dodge bonus as long as the character has invested more than 1 rank into Tumble.
  
• Rogues and Rangers should have access to their own version of the Fighter's Mobility Enhancements.
  
• Tumbling speed should have a higher rate of increase per each point of tumble.
  
• The backflip and diving tumble animations should both be unlocked at the same tumble score, preferably 35.

Larger Changes

• More Tumbling Animations should exist between tumble scores of 0 and 36. Also, tumbling animations should become more complex past 36 as well.
  
• Tumbling should allow a player to move through a monster's space, so long as a players skill is high enough.

Note: More suggestions to come later...

[UtherSRG]

I've made some posts and threads before about why tumble should change. Nothing I've suggested so far to improve the usability of the skill has been implemented yet, so today, I think I'm just going to keep it simple. I'll post here in the Dog House since this isn't an over-arching explanation. Merely, this is just the changes I feel should be implemented, from small to large.

Small Changes

1. Tumbling should always grant a +2 Dodge bonus as long as the character has invested more than 1 rank into Tumble.
   
2. Rogues and Rangers should have access to the Fighter's Mobility Enhancements.
   
3. Tumbling speed should have a higher rate of increase per each point of tumble.
   
4. The flips and dives tumbling animations should be granted upon recieving the same tumble score.

Larger Changes

1. More Tumbling Animations should exist between tumble scores of 0 and 36. Also, tumbling animations should become more complex past 36 as well.
   
2. Tumbling should allow a player to move through a monster's space, so long as a players skill is high enough.

Note: More suggestions to come later...

1. I disagree. This would be a further departure from pen and paper. That's what the Mobility feat is for.
2. No, that's why it is the Fighter's Mobility. Although if you want Rogue's Mobility and Ranger's Mobility, I could understand that. (Ok, so I guess I'm agreeing, just picking on your wording.)
3. Perhaps not per point, but there could be small incremental changes at, let's say, every 5 points of Tumble.
4. Huh?

1. Perhaps, but is the time spent coding this worthwhile?
2. Yes, as the SRD says it should be a base DC of 25 to do so.

While we're at it, Tumble used to not undo Sneak mode, but currently it breaks Sneak. I think that a high enough Tumble should not break Sneak.

[MysticTheurge]

I disagree. This would be a further departure from pen and paper. That's what the Mobility feat is for.

5 ranks in tumble, though, should increase the bonus you get from CE and Defensive Fighting.

[binnsr]

5 ranks in tumble and a positive overall tumble modifier, though, should increase the bonus you get from CE and Defensive Fighting.

fixed it for ya