Bringing Melee classes back in line with casters

[Emili]

Agree. No class is really needed. Just different ways to play. Stop the nerfing, drop the kill counters and lets go have fun.

Well, that's the point of the thread though I believe ... and to be honest dropping the kill counter would make no difference at all. What it is here... a caster is the most efficient class available in DDO, It is quicker to finish a quest with a party full of casters or even a lone caster sometimes then it is to even group them with another class. Efficiency at it's finest, you've CC, extreme DPS, and very high damage mitigation thru Buffs that you really can self heal thru just about anything before your DPS takes it's toll on the mob. As such - although no class is needed - a caster pales the other classes into near uselessness. If everyone just built casters people would do totally fine in the game for most everything thus what melee bring to a group is null and void... does that mean you stop building or playing them? You play to have fun... I can undertand some peoples aggrivation as they're not having any fun due to some snot-nosed caster just showboating the quest. Does it mean I think casters deserve a nerf? Really not, however I think the person playing the caster needs to be considerate of those in his group.

[Elthbert]

Oddly enough, I complained that casters were underpowered for the first year+ of DDO's existence. Now I'm arguing the opposite.

I don't know what you guys are doing, but my lowly wizard is ussually outkilled by the melees in my party, and occasionally by the rogue too. My lowly 140 hp and ac hovering around 30 makes me quite squishy in high level content as well. I certianly do the most total damage in an adventure, but I get killed the most for my trouble as well. I still don't have the Sp I would have in PnP. I am fighting creatures with grossly exagerated save bonuses and I regullarly have to ask the party cleric for DV's or leave for spell points. Perhaps if there is an issue it is with Sorcerers and not with casters, because the firghter and paladin in my party hold just fine to my wizard.

[MysticTheurge]

I don't know what you guys are doing, but my lowly wizard is ussually outkilled by the melees in my party, and occasionally by the rogue too. My lowly 140 hp and ac hovering around 30 makes me quite squishy in high level content as well. I certianly do the most total damage in an adventure, but I get killed the most for my trouble as well.

What's your general strategy?

My cleric can do pretty much anything via maximized-extended-blade-barrier+quickened-heal.

I hear blur/displacement+stoneskin+jump+AoE-spells is a fairly popular wizard tactic.

[Elthbert]

What's your general strategy?

My cleric can do pretty much anything via maximized-extended-blade-barrier+quickened-heal.

I hear blur/displacement+stoneskin+jump+AoE-spells is a fairly popular wizard tactic.

That is pretty much my Wizard's preferred tactic. Though i do throw down a good bit of crowd control as well, though with the increase in immunities I don't do nearly as much CC as I used to. I don't want to say that i am ineffectual becasue I am certianly not, but I am definantly not the uberness that so many are describing on here. The Fighter and the Paladin in my party both dish out a huge kill count, and if they were not there I would get smashed constintly.

Now as for clerics, well theya re supposed to be the uberness, they are argueably the most ppowerful class in PnP ( cleric or druid is a big debate). I don't have an issue with them being awesome. I have issue with the fact that the only real check on clerics has been completly elimentated in DDO and that is a requirment to sserve your Diety and alignment without screw ups. If clerics in DDO had to choose a Faith and then could not go on quest which were hostile to that faith without penelty, that would be better. but alas it is a MMO.

[MysticTheurge]

I have issue with the fact that the only real check on clerics has been completly elimentated in DDO and that is a requirment to sserve your Diety and alignment without screw ups.

That "check" was eliminated in Eberron, not DDO.

But moreover, roleplaying "checks" should never be used as balances against mechanical benefits. (And I'd argue that they're not even really in D&D. The cleric is simply more powerful in an attempt to get people to play a healing class.)

[Elthbert]

That "check" was eliminated in Eberron, not DDO.

But moreover, roleplaying "checks" should never be used as balances against mechanical benefits. (And I'd argue that they're not even really in D&D. The cleric is simply more powerful in an attempt to get people to play a healing class.)

The cleric has always been more powerful, way back since 1979 when I started playing. It is worse in the 3.X era but not grossly so. I don't know that I agree that roleplaying checks should never be used to counter mechanical benefits, but the trick is that those checks have to be real and enforced. Unfortunatly you are right, they are not enforced by many DM's and therefore are useless.


Now as you may or may not remember I have never played in Eberron, are you saying there is no requirment for you to be of a particular alignment or to sincerely be trying to wwork for the good of the diety's cause to gain magical powers from a diety in Eberron?

[Arianrhod]

Now as you may or may not remember I have never played in Eberron, are you saying there is no requirment for you to be of a particular alignment or to sincerely be trying to wwork for the good of the diety's cause to gain magical powers from a diety in Eberron?

That's right. Paladins still have to be lawful good, I believe, even in Eberron, but most other alignment rules are very loose in Eberron (dragons of any color/metal can be any alignment, for instance).

[Elthbert]

That's right. Paladins still have to be lawful good, I believe, even in Eberron, but most other alignment rules are very loose in Eberron (dragons of any color/metal can be any alignment, for instance).

Yeah I know that, but the idea that LG cleric could be working in the church of an Evil diety, say trying to mellow out the faith a bit and gain powers from that diety is pretty stupid.

[Arianrhod]

Yeah I know that, but the idea that LG cleric could be working in the church of an Evil diety, say trying to mellow out the faith a bit and gain powers from that diety is pretty stupid.

Well, I personally think they went a bit too far in making alignment an "optional" sort of thing in Eberron, but that does seem to be the way it works. I believe clerics are considered to get their powers from some sort of generic divine essence, and what god they claim to worship has very little to do with it.

[Elthbert]

Well, I personally think they went a bit too far in making alignment an "optional" sort of thing in Eberron, but that does seem to be the way it works. I believe clerics are considered to get their powers from some sort of generic divine essence, and what god they claim to worship has very little to do with it.

I see, well thats reason enough that i will never play in that world.

Still, it then means there is no real check to a cleric in terms of power. So they are the most powerful class without a doubt in Eberron and then they should be so here. I just don't understand how wizards seem to be getting lumped in with them, we have no where near that level of power.

[MysticTheurge]

Yeah I know that, but the idea that LG cleric could be working in the church of an Evil diety, say trying to mellow out the faith a bit and gain powers from that diety is pretty stupid.

In Eberron you don't gain powers from your deity, you gain them from your faith. Eberron doesn't have deities lurking over your shoulder ready to enforce stuff or step in and muck around in people's business.

It's far more realistic when it comes to religion. And it makes for some far more interesting characters. Like corrupt members of a "good" church and well-meaning followers of an "evil" deity.

Edit -- To be more specific, you don't have to share an alignment with your deity, but you at least have to think you're working within the confines of your religion. Cardinal Krozen, the lawful evil high-up in the Church of the Silver Flame, honestly believes the doctrine of the church, and he believes what he does is for the greater good. He just uses methods that aren't exactly "good" to achieve them sometimes.

[Gratch]

Ran ghosts with 4 rangers an arcane and a cleric. 7 mins. Not the 5-6 mins of the all arcane/cleric runs... but not much different. Different than my first 40+ minute two wipe run....

There does seem to be a sense in a lot of PUG's recently that more Sp bars always equals faster runs. I still think the players, strategy, toons, and circumstances play a larger role. My last 6 caster/cleric litany run ended when the dragon acidized us. Aren't we uberz!?!

[Emili]

I don't know what you guys are doing, but my lowly wizard is ussually outkilled by the melees in my party, and occasionally by the rogue too. My lowly 140 hp and ac hovering around 30 makes me quite squishy in high level content as well. I certianly do the most total damage in an adventure, but I get killed the most for my trouble as well. I still don't have the Sp I would have in PnP. I am fighting creatures with grossly exagerated save bonuses and I regullarly have to ask the party cleric for DV's or leave for spell points. Perhaps if there is an issue it is with Sorcerers and not with casters, because the firghter and paladin in my party hold just fine to my wizard.

What are you using for Fort, stat items and resistance? Wizards are slightly behind a sorc in two repsects when it comes to casting, sp and casting speed... there is another thing sorc can use well, and not many wizards can - diplomacy and/or bluff. Race also plays a bit on DC ... ie.) a drow sorc tops at prime stat for a dc easily whereas many other races sometimes have to make up for it in feat or enhancement or better item. Which brings me to asking about items... My elven wiz sits at 164 hp, 22 dex and 32 int. Wearing heavy fort is key element in preventing crits at such HP levels it's crits which kill. cast and move is the name of the game ... 30 ac with Greater Heroism, stoneskin, blur and displacement are actually quite good at preventing most damages to HP.

Outside of that it's know thy mob... certain spells are way more effective on them then others. Want to land a PK easier on a cr17+ beholder ... heighten spell for your PK and enervate him first if your DC is not so great.

[Oreg]

Eliminate shrines except for rez shrines. Or drastically reduce the number of them. Max 1 per dungeon. Many dungeons should have 0.

[GORAK]

Bring melee types back in line with arcane and divine casters? Simply put, you can't. Historically, the PNP rules all the way from the basic D&D set to the modern 3.5 rule sets have established two power lines. In the early game, the tanks/melee's start out to be the strongest and most powerful class base up to about mid level or so around level 8-10. After mid-level, the balance of powers shifts entirely to the magic users and clerics. I mean "entirely" because the spell powers and abilities of high level casters/clerics simply snuffs out the melee/tanks abilities. At higher levels and end game, it is the magic user/sorcerer who becomes the most powerful class in the game. This is reflected in DDO's game play as well.
You can have a 300 HP's, 50 STR, 50 AC, swing 10x a round and hit for 100 points damage but a well placed spell or two from a high level mage/cleric and well, you're dead. Think of the spells Hold Person, PK, FoD and Destruction just to name a few and you get the idea.
In PnP rules, image an arena with your fighter and another person's mage where you face off at say 100 feet away. Round 1- Mage wins initiative, casts Fly on himself and goes up in the air 30 feet. Fighter can't reach him. Round 2- Mage cast Hold Person on fighter, fighter fails saving throw and well, it's all over.

[Elthbert]

In Eberron you don't gain powers from your deity, you gain them from your faith. Eberron doesn't have deities lurking over your shoulder ready to enforce stuff or step in and muck around in people's business.

It's far more realistic when it comes to religion. And it makes for some far more interesting characters. Like corrupt members of a "good" church and well-meaning followers of an "evil" deity.

Edit -- To be more specific, you don't have to share an alignment with your deity, but you at least have to think you're working within the confines of your religion. Cardinal Krozen, the lawful evil high-up in the Church of the Silver Flame, honestly believes the doctrine of the church, and he believes what he does is for the greater good. He just uses methods that aren't exactly "good" to achieve them sometimes.

Thats funny because I don't find that more realistic with regards to religon at all. The clerics powers and spells origionally come from the scriptuaral and legendary powers of the Prophets and the Saints. healing, walking on water, turning the undead, flame striking, etc, etc. They are the absolute examples of thier faith. I really don';t like the whole, your power comes from your Faith kind of thing, there is nothing divne about faith, that seems more like psionics to me, or perhaps white wolfish. That is not to say I have issue with Evil yet sincere followers of a good religion, or Good yet sincer followers of an Evil one, buthose followers whoul not be wielding the divine might of there diety. I mean there are no legends about Cardinal Richelieu calming storms, turning posion into wholesome food, calling on fire to come down fo heaven. But perhaps it's just me.

[Strumpoo]

Yeah Ghost groups are now 4-5 casters and a cleric. Thanks for making quests that makes melee obsolete.

People need to open their minds..

I regularly run Ghosts with 3-4 rangers! OMG!! I must be insane..... All the clerics and casters whatever shall I do without them..

Much more fun! Start your own group, peope will join you.


There are plenty of quests where melee outshine casters. Casters are built for burst damage. Yes they can outdamage melee's in the short run. Big deal. The longer the quest the more things even out since casters can't constantly spam Max/Empowered anything. If they are recalling for mana, they are suffering a exp penalty.

Big deal. It isn't like melee types don't carry around 100's of healing pots so they are basically self sufficent in quests anyway. What is the difference? Oh yeah, melees don't have to recall out and lose exp to make themselves effective again, they just chug some pots.

I both both casters and melee. My melees have no problem keeping up with casters in most quests. There are some where they outshine the casters and some where the casters outshine them. That what makes it fun.

[MysticTheurge]

Thats funny because I don't find that more realistic with regards to religon at all. The clerics powers and spells ...

Sorry. I didn't mean it makes spellcasting more realistic. (Spellcasting isn't realistic anyway; they're spells.)

What I meant was that it makes the in game religions more realistic, in that they're more like real world religions. You can have high-ranking members of "good" religions who do "evil" things in the real world. Think of things like the Spanish Inquisition. This is, I might even argue, a classic, archetypal character.

The alignment restrictions on clerics meant that that was actually nigh-impossible in D&D. You can never have an evil priest of, say, Torm who takes his devotion to Obedience and Truth to extremes and punishes those who don't share his values. Or an evil priest of Mielikki who sets about to bring the downfall of civilization because it's encroaching on the beautiful wild places of the world. You can't have them because Torm and Mielikki will both show up to make it abundantly clear that the priest in question is in trouble and shouldn't be doing that. Or at the very least, they'll stop giving the cleric spells and everyone will know that that cleric is In Trouble.

And that, to me, is not realistic. Real world deities don't pop in to let us know, say, whether Richard the Lionhearted should or should not have invaded the Holy Land during the Crusades or whether Pope Pius XII did the right thing when he signed the Reichskonkordat. (As a big important note on the topic of religion, I'm not arguing that either of these men were "Evil." I'm just pointing out that what's "Good" and what's "Evil" in real life is not always so clear cut as the alignment system in D&D is.)

And so, by having the Deities (if they even exist) be far enough removed from Eberron that they don't personally hand out a cleric's spells, you get both a more realistic system, where the question of whether a person is "Good" or "Right" is not as clear, and a far more interesting system which allows for far more interesting characters.

[Elthbert]

Sorry. I didn't mean it makes spellcasting more realistic. (Spellcasting isn't realistic anyway; they're spells.)

What I meant was that it makes the in game religions more realistic, in that they're more like real world religions. You can have high-ranking members of "good" religions who do "evil" things in the real world. Think of things like the Spanish Inquisition. This is, I might even argue, a classic, archetypal character.

The alignment restrictions on clerics meant that that was actually nigh-impossible in D&D. You can never have an evil priest of, say, Torm who takes his devotion to Obedience and Truth to extremes and punishes those who don't share his values. Or an evil priest of Mielikki who sets about to bring the downfall of civilization because it's encroaching on the beautiful wild places of the world. You can't have them because Torm and Mielikki will both show up to make it abundantly clear that the priest in question is in trouble and shouldn't be doing that. Or at the very least, they'll stop giving the cleric spells and everyone will know that that cleric is In Trouble.

And that, to me, is not realistic. Real world deities don't pop in to let us know, say, whether Richard the Lionhearted should or should not have invaded the Holy Land during the Crusades or whether Pope Pius XII did the right thing when he signed the Reichskonkordat. (As a big important note on the topic of religion, I'm not arguing that either of these men were "Evil." I'm just pointing out that what's "Good" and what's "Evil" in real life is not always so clear cut as the alignment system in D&D is.)

And so, by having the Deities (if they even exist) be far enough removed from Eberron that they don't personally hand out a cleric's spells, you get both a more realistic system, where the question of whether a person is "Good" or "Right" is not as clear, and a far more interesting system which allows for far more interesting characters.

I understand what you are saying, but my point was the Cleric class was not based on the run of th mill priest but on the Saints and Prophets. A high level cleric was supposed to be Moses-like in his shear unadulterated awesomeness, and like Moses should have a personal relationship with his deity. Who is to say that Pope Blessed Urban II was not directly instructed by God to call for the first crusade? Certianly when Richard attacked a city ( I want to say Acre, but I could be wrong) with 15 men and caused an occupying army of 2000 men to retreat was **** near miraculous, in D&D terms this would be done with a spell. Elijah called fire from heaven to consume his enemies, Peter raised the Dead ( and depending on interpretation slew living as well), etc etc. To me Clerics throwing around power like that should be having that kind of relationship with there diety. And like those Moses get nailed if they screw up.

In the old days 1st through 3rd level spells came from faith, 4-6 had to be granted by the diety's representitive, and the big baddy's had to be granted by the diety himself. I still use that system.

I think one problem is the tendency to equate high ranking in the church with high level and have far to many high level clerics running aound there worlds. Those throughing massive spells around should be held in awe by the population and even by the higherarchy of their church but should not necessarly be high ranking in it. I am having baby holding issues I will finish this later.

[drachine]

i can remember many, many posts on this forum about tanks not needing the lesser classes, including casters beyond casting a haste spell. now with bosses coming tougher to beat down, people are looking to casters to get a lot of jobs done.

don't worry chief. you will still get picked over say rogues and rangers, that is until people realize rogues and rangers are the "new" tanks especially after mod 6. then, i'll still pick up a figher if you're cool.