Bringing Melee classes back in line with casters

[MysticTheurge]

So no, without a massive rebalance of enemy toughness, changing metas is not a good idea.

You say "enemy toughness" I say "spell base damage."

[Henrieta]

What class will survive when the demons in the next mod start to use counterspelling tactics and redirecting those max/empowered scorching rays right back where they came?
Would increasing the effectiveness of AC help?
Would increasing the utility of skills help? How about adding skill synergy? Maybe if every 5 ranks in tumble increased your AC by 1 or granted an increasing % miss effect? Or high levels of hide decreased Aggro...Intimidate could be used to draw aggro or cause Fear... Maybe a high repair with haggle could reduce damage costs? Try increasing the usefulness of heal and repair maybe by adding a bonus to self stabilization. Could we have the ability to use healing kits for healing ourselves and others? Balance and tumble could reduce some of the attack of opportunity bonus monsters get. Diplomacy and bluff (maybe even intimidate) could provide limited damage resistance inflicted by intelligent monsters.
Just throwing some ideas out there.

[Stravkos]

You say "enemy toughness" I say "spell base damage."

Ok, changing spell damage would be fine as well(I assume when you say "change" you mean "increase"). So long as a mage can kill things without having to spend half a mana bar on a single encounter(or spam save or die spells), I'm happy.

[tharveysinjin]

Ok drama queen.

The point is that there isn't a penalty right now for ANY capped character class that means much. But capped melees don't need to run back to town for mana so they don't leave the quests as much.

There needs to be some kind of severe penalty for a capped (and even non-capped) casters who recalls for mana or any other reason. I like MT's suggestion of a non-removable negative level. If it was implimented, I think it should stay in effect until the quest is completed or 30 min whichever is LONGER.

I do think that mana pots are an issue because they are so easy to get. So don't take them out if that means that the sky would start falling and people leaving in droves as Glasscannon suggests. Reduce their effectiveness by 75%. They should be there to give a caster one last chance to get a spell off before dying or to cast teleport of greater teleport and get the group out of danger.

The fact is,
1. Casters use a resource called mana, to give them the ability to affect enemies. This resource is a diminishing resource.
2. Casters used to subsidize this diminishing resource by purchasing scrolls in the hundreds and some wands to boot. Unfortunately, many of those scrolls are no longer available from vendors due to a change that many of us saw as a nerf to casters. In addition, wands that can be purchased are not more than level 4, and thus have minimal or no effect on enemies. The developers' solution to this was to add higher level scrolls and wands as drops from the various chests. However, the drop rate is nowhere near enough to compensate from the loss of buyable scrolls.
3. The developers also decided to re-work the mana pools and no longer gave Drow casters the Elven Arcanum enhancement.
4. With module 4, quests were introduced that had merely one rest shrine or in fact no rest shrines, making it impossible for casters to replenish their mana pools.
All of these things were added to nerf the casters.

5. At some point, (either with mod 4 or shortly after) mana pots were added to the game. I believe the drop rate had to be increased because there still weren't enough pots to make up for little or no shrines in a quest.
6. The developers eventually recalculated the mana formula, giving wizards a tad more mana, clerics got more mana, on par with wizards, and sorcerers got a lot more mana.
7. Metamagic feats were changed and the mana cost for using them was reduced.

The biggest difference between melee and casters is the fact that the resources for melee types, are for all intents and purposes, non diminishing. Granted, they can take wear and tear and require repair, but, the damage they take in quests doesn't prevent their use, normally.

1. Melee classes can swing, skewer or bludgeon opponents with abandon, without fear of losing their weapons
2. Melee classes can carry as many weapons as they can fit into 125 backpack slots.
3. Melee classes have a a myriad of weapon choices, to deal the most damage possible to virtually any opponent, with vorpal, smiter, disruption, curse spewing, paralyzing, greater bane, maiming, and elemental damage properties.

I certainly do not advocate nerfing casters yet again. It's about time that casters were able to shine a little bit. The kill-count mentality is what drives this incessant call for nerfing one class over another. I have read from countless posters who say that "Melee classes can't compete with casters". Compete for what? The whole idea behind D&D, an idea, I might add that was incorporated into DDO, was putting a group of characters together in order to work together against a common foe. Including a kill count only fosters rivalries among the players, and takes away from the spirit of the game. I say, get rid of the kill count display.

All you tanks out there who keep calling for more caster nerfs. If that's what you want, and you want a level playing field, then I say let's level it completely. (By the way, I have two capped fighters, a capped sorcerer, a capped cleric and two capped wizards)

1. Let's limit the number of weapons that a fighter can carry, by level, to that of a wizard and his spells. i.e. at 14th level, a fighter could carry only: three weapons that required a minimum level of 13-14 and four weapons that require minimum of level 11 or 12, and four weapons that require minimim level 9 or 10, etc.
2. Add a system that would provide a cumulative 5% chance per hit, that a weapon breaks and becomes unusable until repaired by a vendor or at a repair shrine*. Thus, a fighter's resources are now as diminishing as a caster's.
3. Add a "repair" stone to the rest shrine so that a fighter's weapons can be fixed.
3. Add feats and enhancements that allow a fighter to overpower his weapons for a single attack, at the cost of an additional 2% cumulative chance of breaking the weapon. e.g, you want to add fire damage to that +1 sword, great! a successful hit will now add 7% more chance to break the weapon.
4. Add "whetstone potions" to the game, and allow fighters to drink the potions in order to restore a portion of their weapon's integrity. Minor, Lesser, and Greater versions could exist, but, these potions would not be available at any vendor. Instead, they could only be acquired as loot from chests, or as an end reward option.
5. Since some have suggested that casters be penalized for exiting a dungeon while the instance is incomplete, fine: add the same restrictions for melee characters. If a melee character leaves a quest to get weapons repaired, only allow him/her to repair the weapon to 50%. In addition, charge them 25K exp for leaving the instance prior to completion, as someone suggested for casters.
Or, give fighters a negative level.
6. Restrict weapon drops in chests to the same rate as scrolls. In addition, allow every fighter the option of choosing 2 new weapons upon acquiring a new level. Make many more weapons available at the vendors, but, specialty weapons, like vorpals, paralyzers, smiters, banishers, etc, could only be selected when a new level was attained or as loot. (Come to think of it, this would do away with all of the whining about uber loot.)
7. Add robes and other non-armor clothing that is on par with a fighter's armor, so that casters can get AC's in the 40's.
8. Make the hit die a d10 for every class.

Okay, that's all i can think of now. But, this should be a good start to levelling the playing field so that everyone has a good time without worrying about what someone else can do.

Or, we could just eliminate all classes except the fighter class.

Or, we could just get rid of the kill count.

Or, we could implement a scoring system that gave people cumulative points for kills and assists:

Kill: 2 points
Individual buff cast on another party member: 2 points
Group buff: 13 points
Damage inflicted on enemy w/o kill 1 point
Disabled Enemy via dance, hold, charm etc: 2 points


All points awarded after quest completion. Points could be used to:
1. Buy favor from the various houses, at an exchange rate of 1000 to 1.
2. To buy mana potions or "whetstone potions" from a single vendor who only deals in points.
3. Buy jelly cakes in the off season.
4. Buy enhancements to equipment, once crafting is available.

Just a thought, but, maybe something like this would get people working together instead of whining all the time for nerfing someone else.

[Galacticus]

You obviously forgot to mention Vorpal, Disruptors...I think they're fairly balanced...now if the loot could be better...hhhmmm...different topic

Hey, I guess everyone notices how much melee classes suck compared to casters now at high level. Yes, Yes I know casters are suppose to be better then other classes at high level. In PnP, there is at least some cool uber feats to help balance them out....or you can become a weapon master or such.

In DDO casters are even more out of balance then PnP. Why?

1. Cause the spell critical system in unbalanced (1000s of points a damage a second).
2. Cause we do not use a spell/day per level system, We use a mana system, so you really do not have to choose to much what you cast like in PnP.
3. Um, too many shrines. And people can leave dungeons and return.
4. So what you have now is all the spell-castes loot running the high level quests like Litany on Elite, and most the time do not even need us melee types. They just destructed every single thing, oh run out of mana..np...go get more.


1. Change the way spell resistance works.
2. Take those shrines out of hard and elite quests.
3. Lock the dungeons.

4. GIVE US OUR NEXT ATTACK, and pls double our crit range and add one for the multiplier for the last attack. If you can keep the mob on you for 5 attacks you should get an nice bonus at the end.

[Emili]

You obviously forgot to mention Vorpal, Disruptors...I think they're fairly balanced...now if the loot could be better...hhhmmm...different topic

Are you suggesting Vorpal is equalivalent to FOD;-) Forcing mele to rely on an an epic for a handful of mob is quite funny... those weapons really are not so much reliable cept for a few trash mobs with cr's low enough to not make their save - as the game progresses disruption will turn into the usefulness of banishers, etc...

To be hones, no class is needed in this game - you can justify what your build brings to a group all you want, truth is you're not needed. You're replacable by any other class/build. The game is suppose to be that way. The true delema here though is DPS. The nature of the game is it is a MMO, as such DPS is what is the foremost element. Casters produce high DPS... so it's most likely in a party of 6 more casters produce even more DPS... does this invalidate a melee build? No, not really but it does make their usefulness to a party far less efficient. It's like the intimidating tanks - go in grab agro and people pick off the mob. It's just as quick and efficient to cast a CC spell or fascinate and pick off the mob... or even to just spam blast damage spells from a distance kiting them or jump circle a FW out of the mob's melee range.

[Yen_Lo_Wang]

Hmm interesting so what your syaing where people what to loooot run something that is repetative running of something over and over again which is boring and may not drop casters are to stop and let tanks duke it out for extra minutes slowing down the quest and wasting evryones time. Well hell seeing as your strength is greater then a elder dragon con at that of a tarrasque wwhy not give you the stopping power of a tarrasque, if your tank can't do squat look at it again and re-roll if you what a high dps tank look at a build on the net if your build fails look at your self. The game is allready at high lvl epic preportions what the hell do you think is going to happen that they going to give you insta epic wepons and other items. Next time try looking at the fact that you hit more than once in a round of combat.

[Yen_Lo_Wang]

The fact is,
1. Casters use a resource called mana, to give them the ability to affect enemies. This resource is a diminishing resource.
2. Casters used to subsidize this diminishing resource by purchasing scrolls in the hundreds and some wands to boot. Unfortunately, many of those scrolls are no longer available from vendors due to a change that many of us saw as a nerf to casters. In addition, wands that can be purchased are not more than level 4, and thus have minimal or no effect on enemies. The developers' solution to this was to add higher level scrolls and wands as drops from the various chests. However, the drop rate is nowhere near enough to compensate from the loss of buyable scrolls.
3. The developers also decided to re-work the mana pools and no longer gave Drow casters the Elven Arcanum enhancement.
4. With module 4, quests were introduced that had merely one rest shrine or in fact no rest shrines, making it impossible for casters to replenish their mana pools.
All of these things were added to nerf the casters.

5. At some point, (either with mod 4 or shortly after) mana pots were added to the game. I believe the drop rate had to be increased because there still weren't enough pots to make up for little or no shrines in a quest.
6. The developers eventually recalculated the mana formula, giving wizards a tad more mana, clerics got more mana, on par with wizards, and sorcerers got a lot more mana.
7. Metamagic feats were changed and the mana cost for using them was reduced.

The biggest difference between melee and casters is the fact that the resources for melee types, are for all intents and purposes, non diminishing. Granted, they can take wear and tear and require repair, but, the damage they take in quests doesn't prevent their use, normally.

1. Melee classes can swing, skewer or bludgeon opponents with abandon, without fear of losing their weapons
2. Melee classes can carry as many weapons as they can fit into 125 backpack slots.
3. Melee classes have a a myriad of weapon choices, to deal the most damage possible to virtually any opponent, with vorpal, smiter, disruption, curse spewing, paralyzing, greater bane, maiming, and elemental damage properties.

I certainly do not advocate nerfing casters yet again. It's about time that casters were able to shine a little bit. The kill-count mentality is what drives this incessant call for nerfing one class over another. I have read from countless posters who say that "Melee classes can't compete with casters". Compete for what? The whole idea behind D&D, an idea, I might add that was incorporated into DDO, was putting a group of characters together in order to work together against a common foe. Including a kill count only fosters rivalries among the players, and takes away from the spirit of the game. I say, get rid of the kill count display.

All you tanks out there who keep calling for more caster nerfs. If that's what you want, and you want a level playing field, then I say let's level it completely. (By the way, I have two capped fighters, a capped sorcerer, a capped cleric and two capped wizards)

1. Let's limit the number of weapons that a fighter can carry, by level, to that of a wizard and his spells. i.e. at 14th level, a fighter could carry only: three weapons that required a minimum level of 13-14 and four weapons that require minimum of level 11 or 12, and four weapons that require minimim level 9 or 10, etc.
2. Add a system that would provide a cumulative 5% chance per hit, that a weapon breaks and becomes unusable until repaired by a vendor or at a repair shrine*. Thus, a fighter's resources are now as diminishing as a caster's.
3. Add a "repair" stone to the rest shrine so that a fighter's weapons can be fixed.
3. Add feats and enhancements that allow a fighter to overpower his weapons for a single attack, at the cost of an additional 2% cumulative chance of breaking the weapon. e.g, you want to add fire damage to that +1 sword, great! a successful hit will now add 7% more chance to break the weapon.
4. Add "whetstone potions" to the game, and allow fighters to drink the potions in order to restore a portion of their weapon's integrity. Minor, Lesser, and Greater versions could exist, but, these potions would not be available at any vendor. Instead, they could only be acquired as loot from chests, or as an end reward option.
5. Since some have suggested that casters be penalized for exiting a dungeon while the instance is incomplete, fine: add the same restrictions for melee characters. If a melee character leaves a quest to get weapons repaired, only allow him/her to repair the weapon to 50%. In addition, charge them 25K exp for leaving the instance prior to completion, as someone suggested for casters.
Or, give fighters a negative level.
6. Restrict weapon drops in chests to the same rate as scrolls. In addition, allow every fighter the option of choosing 2 new weapons upon acquiring a new level. Make many more weapons available at the vendors, but, specialty weapons, like vorpals, paralyzers, smiters, banishers, etc, could only be selected when a new level was attained or as loot. (Come to think of it, this would do away with all of the whining about uber loot.)
7. Add robes and other non-armor clothing that is on par with a fighter's armor, so that casters can get AC's in the 40's.
8. Make the hit die a d10 for every class.

Okay, that's all i can think of now. But, this should be a good start to levelling the playing field so that everyone has a good time without worrying about what someone else can do.

Or, we could just eliminate all classes except the fighter class.

Or, we could just get rid of the kill count.

Or, we could implement a scoring system that gave people cumulative points for kills and assists:

Kill: 2 points
Individual buff cast on another party member: 2 points
Group buff: 13 points
Damage inflicted on enemy w/o kill 1 point
Disabled Enemy via dance, hold, charm etc: 2 points


All points awarded after quest completion. Points could be used to:
1. Buy favor from the various houses, at an exchange rate of 1000 to 1.
2. To buy mana potions or "whetstone potions" from a single vendor who only deals in points.
3. Buy jelly cakes in the off season.
4. Buy enhancements to equipment, once crafting is available.

Just a thought, but, maybe something like this would get people working together instead of whining all the time for nerfing someone else.

Gotta say this is a good thinking. Seeing as its all about taking one set of classes down if you cant play another class on your x amount of character spaces go play solitare.

[gpk]

1. Let's limit the number of weapons that a fighter can carry, by level, to that of a wizard and his spells. i.e. at 14th level, a fighter could carry only: three weapons that required a minimum level of 13-14 and four weapons that require minimum of level 11 or 12, and four weapons that require minimim level 9 or 10, etc.

Good idea, furthermore let's make all weapon type of all combinations available at a vendor, just like spells. Let's not forget I get few a free level appropriate weapons upon leveling up. I can't wait to get a holy burst greater everythign bane from the vendor.

2. Add a system that would provide a cumulative 5% chance per hit, that a weapon breaks and becomes unusable until repaired by a vendor or at a repair shrine*. Thus, a fighter's resources are now as diminishing as a caster's.
3. Add a "repair" stone to the rest shrine so that a fighter's weapons can be fixed.
3. Add feats and enhancements that allow a fighter to overpower his weapons for a single attack, at the cost of an additional 2% cumulative chance of breaking the weapon. e.g, you want to add fire damage to that +1 sword, great! a successful hit will now add 7% more chance to break the weapon.
4. Add "whetstone potions" to the game, and allow fighters to drink the potions in order to restore a portion of their weapon's integrity. Minor, Lesser, and Greater versions could exist, but, these potions would not be available at any vendor. Instead, they could only be acquired as loot from chests, or as an end reward option.
5. Since some have suggested that casters be penalized for exiting a dungeon while the instance is incomplete, fine: add the same restrictions for melee characters. If a melee character leaves a quest to get weapons repaired, only allow him/her to repair the weapon to 50%. In addition, charge them 25K exp for leaving the instance prior to completion, as someone suggested for casters.
Or, give fighters a negative level.
6. Restrict weapon drops in chests to the same rate as scrolls. In addition, allow every fighter the option of choosing 2 new weapons upon acquiring a new level. Make many more weapons available at the vendors, but, specialty weapons, like vorpals, paralyzers, smiters, banishers, etc, could only be selected when a new level was attained or as loot. (Come to think of it, this would do away with all of the whining about uber loot.)

Fine with me, I'll just buy a new weapon from the super everything bane vendor

7. Add robes and other non-armor clothing that is on par with a fighter's armor, so that casters can get AC's in the 40's.

Another great suggestion, you're right on the money. Don't forget to boost armor check penalties and arcane spell failures to comparable levels.

8. Make the hit die a d10 for every class.

Now you're talking, and every spell will be melee range and require an attack roll.

Finally someone with some great ideas.

[Oreg]

Good idea, furthermore let's make all weapon type of all combinations available at a vendor, just like spells. Let's not forget I get few a free level appropriate weapons upon leveling up. I can't wait to get a holy burst greater everythign bane from the vendor.

Fine with me, I'll just buy a new weapon from the super everything bane vendor

Another great suggestion, you're right on the money. Don't forget to boost armor check penalties and arcane spell failures to comparable levels.

Now you're talking, and every spell will be melee range and require an attack roll.

Finally someone with some great ideas.

lol.

[smatt]

What class will survive when the demons in the next mod start to use counterspelling tactics and redirecting those max/empowered scorching rays right back where they came?
Would increasing the effectiveness of AC help?
Would increasing the utility of skills help? How about adding skill synergy? Maybe if every 5 ranks in tumble increased your AC by 1 or granted an increasing % miss effect? Or high levels of hide decreased Aggro...Intimidate could be used to draw aggro or cause Fear... Maybe a high repair with haggle could reduce damage costs? Try increasing the usefulness of heal and repair maybe by adding a bonus to self stabilization. Could we have the ability to use healing kits for healing ourselves and others? Balance and tumble could reduce some of the attack of opportunity bonus monsters get. Diplomacy and bluff (maybe even intimidate) could provide limited damage resistance inflicted by intelligent monsters.
Just throwing some ideas out there.

Nice...

Yep... things are fine.. Sure there's alway sproblems.. But things swing back and forth..... Most of all treat people with respect, when in a GROUP, think about the other players fun time as well. let other players contribute... If oyu want to speed loot *****,a s I do often times I stick to a few fast paced playing friends. When I join pugs, it's a more slow paced, let everybody have their fun type of thing.

I'm betting that Mod 6 will FORCE casters to go back to a bit more of a crowd control type situation..... Different mobs require different tactics. BUT remember that jsut becasue you're given power, deosn't always mean you should use it

[MysticTheurge]

I'm betting that Mod 6 will FORCE casters to go back to a bit more of a crowd control type situation..... Different mobs require different tactics.

Not if the don't change SR.

Devils and Demons are generally going to have high SR, since it currently only affects non-damaging spells, damage may be the favored tactic.

Of course many are also highly resistant to energy and/or immune to fire in particular.

So it looks like we're back to spamming MM/FM.

[Henrieta]

Yes, traditionally, demons have those attributes, but we are dealing with Turbines version of D&D. Therefore, we should expect to see some surprises with the capabilities/immunities/types of the new mobs. I vaguely recall reading several posts advocating more unexpected situations. One of the best features of DDO is that you can have what some would call the weakest build(s), but quests can still be completed if you use strategy and/or work together. Overcoming challenges (where challenge involves an almost certain possibility of defeat) is part of what keeps D&D fun.

[smatt]

Not if the don't change SR.

Devils and Demons are generally going to have high SR, since it currently only affects non-damaging spells, damage may be the favored tactic.

Of course many are also highly resistant to energy and/or immune to fire in particular.

So it looks like we're back to spamming MM/FM.

Ahh but you forget that they also often deflect such spells BACK a the.... Oh priceless... And don't forget Devils are casters as well, what stops them from having the shield spell?????

I just don't see it continually be all that easy for casters... IF it is, well then they DO NEED to NNNNNEEEEEEERRRRRRFFFFFF EEEEMMMMM

At least the capped ones, that's my new thought line....... Perhaps, somekind of penalty for re-entry to a quest AFTER your capped. That way the lowbies won't take a hit, and the newer or less skilled players will at least save a choice or hav a bit of time to become a bit better before they get some kind of hit for the mana fountain problem....

And again, I don't like to see anybody take a hit to what they've already been given, but I'm of the opinion that casters do have it too easy at THIS POINT in the end game. But I haven't seen anything tossed out yet that would solve the problem without likely having many unintended and negative ramifications.

As for tanks, AC is well fine.. Hey CR 17-20's ARE going to hit you even when you have a 60 AC...... Melee is plain tough at these levels, as well as costly.. That's why casters need to be powerful.... But not to the magnitude that they are now....

[MrCow]

Of course many are also highly resistant to energy and/or immune to fire in particular.

So it looks like we're back to spamming MM/FM.

The fall of maximized/empowered firewall will just give rise to maximized/empowered acid fog.

[smatt]

The fall of maximized/empowered firewall will just give rise to maximized/empowered acid fog.

Hmm, so what stops them from having acid resists as well as fire resists? And in fact since acid fog does even less damage then WoF, it would be even less effective to a high HP mob. Well it would slow them down a bit so the melees could have a LITTLE fun

[Nevthial]

It really wouldn't matter what changes were made to spellcasters. With the right spell selection, IT IS EASY. If half of our spell points were taken away , metamagic costs were doubled , casting times were increased, guess what? It would still only take ONE well placed spell per fight to wrap things up. It only seems easy when the caster in question knows what they are doing. Magic in D&D is, has & always will be powerful.
E.G.G. himself played wizards ( Neutral Evil ones at that) more than any other class. If you're looking for a strickly hackfest game, D&D isn't it.

Just my opinion & observations.

[Pyromaniac]

Yep lets nerf the melee classes to bring them in line with casters

Get rid of those pesky super toughness hitpoint enhancements that casters can't get (unless they're Dwarves or WF)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Normally at 15th level casters need muscle around to give them time to do their stuff, allow them to conserve resources, and contain the situation if things go pear shaped. The most overpowering thing right now is that very little can go wrong for a caster such that any of these are true. Thus caster can solo or duo many things which no other classes can do. This is not good.

But I would suggest a major nerf is not in any way required. 3 things would likely solve the problem so that arcanes/clerics have massive power but a fragility that requires melee back up.

1. Mobs should be smarter about AOE damage. Right now if things go bad you drop a firewall and jump around while they cook. This is silly beyond belief. Thankfully it sounds like this might be addressed in Mod 6. We will have to see.

2. Fix metamagics so that you have to stay within castable limits of spells. No dropping 2 meta magics on a 7th level spell as you would need to be able to cast 9th or higher level spells to do that.

3. Fix agro on spells. When the fighters are told to hide behind the caster while he FOD's the room, something is wrong. The problem here is that 8 guys in the room don't seem to notice when one of their comrades drop dead. At the first FOD, the mobs should come running (thus requiring the fighters to handle the swarm).

IMHO, none of these are a significant nerf and all are reasonable within the context of the game. Also note that none of these changes are intended to restrict casters to conserve their resources. We don't want to go back to the point where casters have to wait in the hall while the fight occurs so that they don't waste a spell. They need to participate in all the content. All characters need to participate.

They should NOT come running!
They should go into alert and look around for what happened....start a search pattern etc.
We already have the come running problem....the ESP of baddies knowing exactly where we are in many situations that they should not.
But I think I know what you mean.......
They should not just stand there oblivious to what just happened.

[redoubt]

Are you suggesting Vorpal is equalivalent to FOD;-) Forcing mele to rely on an an epic for a handful of mob is quite funny... those weapons really are not so much reliable cept for a few trash mobs with cr's low enough to not make their save - as the game progresses disruption will turn into the usefulness of banishers, etc...

I did not think vorpals had a save... roll a 20, confirm crit... off with their head... FOD, pK, destruction have saves.
To be hones, no class is needed in this game - you can justify what your build brings to a group all you want, truth is you're not needed. You're replacable by any other class/build. The game is suppose to be that way. The true delema here though is DPS. The nature of the game is it is a MMO, as such DPS is what is the foremost element. Casters produce high DPS... so it's most likely in a party of 6 more casters produce even more DPS... does this invalidate a melee build? No, not really but it does make their usefulness to a party far less efficient. It's like the intimidating tanks - go in grab agro and people pick off the mob. It's just as quick and efficient to cast a CC spell or fascinate and pick off the mob... or even to just spam blast damage spells from a distance kiting them or jump circle a FW out of the mob's melee range.

Agree. No class is really needed. Just different ways to play. Stop the nerfing, drop the kill counters and lets go have fun.