Bringing Melee classes back in line with casters

[EinarMal]

No.

*sniffs* Do you bathe, in that armor??

****! Can I just sit in your backpack then and get some xp??

[MysticTheurge]

This I agree with...on the condition that the red/purple blanket immunites be removed. Give them appropriate SR instead.

You do realize that a high enough SR is an immunity, right?

[wrinyn]

Awesome, another student at the Revenge School of Balance.

I guess the written word loses its sarcasm. I was merely poking fun (+3 fun making stick of power 2) at those that limited us in our early days when our lives were more difficult. If I was at the Revenge School I would run GH quests with all casters and not let any melees in at all...ha,ah,ha...I am joking btw......

[MysticTheurge]

If I was at the Revenge School I would run GH quests with all casters and not let any melees in at all...ha,ah,ha...I am joking btw......

Kind of...

[Yaga_Nub]

Get a lot of milage out of those in Ghosts or Litany do you? Teojeff is right on most of what he says. When 90% of the groups running late-game content (especially scale runs, Ghosts and Litany) are all caster/cleric or 5caster/1 melee, something needs to be adjusted.

I haven't found that Ghost groups are asking for all casters.

Now you say that they are, I say they're not and which is right? Both? Neither?

I have both melees and arcanes (no clerics, clerics suck ). I get into groups because I'm a good player and I CAN be fun to be around, unless you're more of an idiot that I am, in which case I promise that you will not have fun with me in the group (and you might need to get or go see a psychiatrist are the run). Melees might need some small boost but they will never equal a mage as long as you are using DnD rules. Someone mentioned that the 4.0 ruleset might be changing that but until then it is what it is.

Keep posting because it's good to hear thoughts and give input. Just don't be mad if it doesn't change because of your posts.

[Serpent]

It's been suggested that Spell Crits are the cause of the problem; they're not. They only contribute very slightly.

It's also been suggested that increasing the damage of melee-combatant classes would help. It's true that would improve the balance situation, but it would also be really bad for gameplay. It would lead to all characters (not just sorcs and wizards) able to kill monsters under a second after you meet them, which would lead to a fix of all monsters getting better saves and 5x more hitpoints than they already have. Plus, increasing power of melee classes would go against PnP rules, while decreasing power of casters would go closer to the rulebooks (after all, the rules NEVER allow a level 14 sorc to use a Maximized Empowered Disintegrate)

Also, the mana system, number of shrines, and re-entry of quests are not major issues. It would be nice to see more quests where it's impractical to recall for mana, but that's not critical.

To reduce the number of shrines per quest would somewhat improve balance, because it would weaken casters (and barbarians) more than other classes- but it would not be good for gameplay. Yes, it would reduce the amount of power a caster can put out during the quest, but it would also reduce the number of actions he could take. That means adding time when the caster can't do anything useful, and just sits around bored waiting until the party needs him. That's not fun. Instead of reducing the number of times he can cast spells in combat, it would be better to reduce the power those spells have. There's a very simple first step: Revert the metamagic changes from module 5.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=129493

[Yaga_Nub]

Oddly enough, I complained that casters were underpowered for the first year+ of DDO's existence. Now I'm arguing the opposite.

MT, where is your thread that argues that casters are overpowered? I want to read it.

[MysticTheurge]

There's a very simple first step: Revert the metamagic changes from module 5.

No.

This is not a simple or a good step.

The Mod 5 metamagic changes were a step in the right direction, but they're missing an important limitation.

Reverting to the old system would be a step in the wrong direction, and still wouldn't actually address the problem.

[MysticTheurge]

MT, where is your thread that argues that casters are overpowered? I want to read it.

Well I haven't started my own thread on it. I've just been arguing it in other people's threads so far.

[Serpent]

No.

This is not a simple or a good step.

The Mod 5 metamagic changes were a step in the right direction, but they're missing an important limitation.

Reverting to the old system would be a step in the wrong direction, and still wouldn't actually address the problem.

Gotta disagree. Not only will it be a good direction it will give a more stable launch point for more changes if warranted. Changing things from a change often will lead you in circles.

[Kaboth]

Maybe when they lower magic output, they will institute an ENDURANCE bar so melee's cant swing indefinately without ever resting and so forth.

[MysticTheurge]

Gotta disagree. Not only will it be a good direction it will give a more stable launch point for more changes if warranted. Changing things from a change often will lead you in circles.

Precisely why the metamagic system should stay as is and be modified from there (probably with a cap on how much you can metamagic something).

The pre-Mod-5 system was a larger change from the D&D rules than this current system is. Trying to balance it would be trying to work from the more unstable launch point.

[Vorn]

Maybe making a total spell point cost that could not be exceeded on a particular casting of a spell based upon the level of the caster would work. When too many metamagics are turned on the spell would turn grey on the hotbar or something like that? That way, for example, a 7th lvl spell could not be metamagic'd into the equivalent of a 9th lvl spell unless one could actually cast 9th lvl spells?

[Serpent]

Precisely why the metamagic system should stay as is and be modified from there (probably with a cap on how much you can metamagic something).

The pre-Mod-5 system was a larger change from the D&D rules than this current system is. Trying to balance it would be trying to work from the more unstable launch point.

I see pre mod 5 metamagics more closely related to their PnP counterparts, (still over powered) they made you think about how you used them. how many you could apply at once. What was the amount you would spend. The equivalent to capping the spells metamagic level in PnP. This new system does not take that into consideration. If we had old system casters could still do the uber damage but would have to spend SP wisely and then place a small hitch that you can't mix this or spend SP = to 3 x your level or something. That would be more ideal imo.

[Agarwaen]

I haven't found that Ghost groups are asking for all casters.

Now you say that they are, I say they're not and which is right? Both? Neither?

I have both melees and arcanes (no clerics, clerics suck ). I get into groups because I'm a good player and I CAN be fun to be around, unless you're more of an idiot that I am, in which case I promise that you will not have fun with me in the group (and you might need to get or go see a psychiatrist are the run). Melees might need some small boost but they will never equal a mage as long as you are using DnD rules. Someone mentioned that the 4.0 ruleset might be changing that but until then it is what it is.

Keep posting because it's good to hear thoughts and give input. Just don't be mad if it doesn't change because of your posts.

My rogue, in particular, has a nice reputation and he gets lots of invites, so that isn't an issue. But invites to Ghosts? Not unless it's by my friends or my guild helping me out! The same goes for my fighter. Maybe I'm hanging around the wrong people, but everyone I know considers it foolhardy to go into Ghosts without a minimum of two clerics and two casters, and groups of all clerics/casters are by far the most common.

I agree with you that at high level casters are the best damage dealers in PnP. However, you won't find too many PnP groups made up of all casters and clerics. Not only would it be boring, but sooner or later they are going to come up on the short end of the stick on initiative and surprise rolls. And woe unto those squishies when that happens. Or they might just wander into a nasty trap. In DDO, there are no such deterents, and we desperately need some things that encourage group diversity.

I can see toning down metamagic as helping a bit, but it doesn't really sound like a solution to me. Maybe I just can't visualize the result of the changes because my only caster and cleric are 1st level . I hate playing casters, but I figured I darn well better learn to enjoy it if I want to run late-game content with any regularity. And therin lies my problem and my worry about the current balance of the game.

[MysticTheurge]

I see pre mod 5 metamagics more closely related to their PnP counterparts, (still over powered) they made you think about how you used them.

Given that the D&D system adds a flat amount determined by the metamagic, how is a system that adds a variable amount determined by the metamagic and the spell closer to D&D?

That would be more ideal imo.

You can accomplish all the things you're referencing and still keep the new metamagic system. I fail to see why a system that diverts further from the D&D system and adds additional caps would be better.

The new metamagic system is closer to how metamagics should be working. It's not perfect, but solving it's flaws is a better solution that going back to the old system which was almost completely different from the D&D system.

[ahpook]

Normally at 15th level casters need muscle around to give them time to do their stuff, allow them to conserve resources, and contain the situation if things go pear shaped. The most overpowering thing right now is that very little can go wrong for a caster such that any of these are true. Thus caster can solo or duo many things which no other classes can do. This is not good.

But I would suggest a major nerf is not in any way required. 3 things would likely solve the problem so that arcanes/clerics have massive power but a fragility that requires melee back up.

1. Mobs should be smarter about AOE damage. Right now if things go bad you drop a firewall and jump around while they cook. This is silly beyond belief. Thankfully it sounds like this might be addressed in Mod 6. We will have to see.

2. Fix metamagics so that you have to stay within castable limits of spells. No dropping 2 meta magics on a 7th level spell as you would need to be able to cast 9th or higher level spells to do that.

3. Fix agro on spells. When the fighters are told to hide behind the caster while he FOD's the room, something is wrong. The problem here is that 8 guys in the room don't seem to notice when one of their comrades drop dead. At the first FOD, the mobs should come running (thus requiring the fighters to handle the swarm).

IMHO, none of these are a significant nerf and all are reasonable within the context of the game. Also note that none of these changes are intended to restrict casters to conserve their resources. We don't want to go back to the point where casters have to wait in the hall while the fight occurs so that they don't waste a spell. They need to participate in all the content. All characters need to participate.

[smatt]

Any fighter that can't keep up with the mages in an average dungeon needs a reroll.

Ummmmmmm.... No comment


[qoute] Edit: Oh, and the melees are also WAY overpowered in equipment, damage, to-hit, and hp to PnP so saying the mages are buffed up here is kinda meaningless, everything is supercharged here.[/quote]

Yes tanks perhaps by a magnatude of 1, Pali's oh dear they need a bit of help, rogues well two weapon tank builds do great dps, but the trap monkeys????? Rangers can be really tough bastards but true ranged rangers could use a bit of help. Barbs, well a well built one kicks butt, but still takes a fair amount of damage while doing so.

No casters are indeed over-powered by a magnatude of say 3, a bit of a nerf would do the whole game good

[wrinyn]

That is a first where the almighty MT or Aspenor quoted me in a thread...**bows down**....I actually like the idea of assigning levels to each metamagic feat. For an example, an empowered magic missile would be a level 3 spell (can't remember specifics from DMG) and would fill a level three slot and use lvl 3 sp's. If you can't cast a spell at a certain level, it can't have that metafeat on it. It would not be that bad to code since it's done at an inn when you mem spells and assign them to slots. I imagine the sorcs wouldn't like it since their slots are sooooooo precious but then their sp's are nearly limitless. This would then tone down the level of fire power a caster has. Personally I like the way it is now. I'm enjoying my power and enjoying seeing all caster groups. I have a tough time keeping up...However, as always, I just go with the flow and will adapt my play style accordingly....

[MysticTheurge]

For an example, an empowered magic missile would be a level 3 spell (can't remember specifics from DMG) and would fill a level three slot and use lvl 3 sp's.

That's kind of what I suggested back before we saw what the metamagic rewrite was gonna be.

I think I still like it better as a system.