Bringing Melee classes back in line with casters

[Taojeff]

Hey, I guess everyone notices how much melee classes suck compared to casters now at high level. Yes, Yes I know casters are suppose to be better then other classes at high level. In PnP, there is at least some cool uber feats to help balance them out....or you can become a weapon master or such.

In DDO casters are even more out of balance then PnP. Why?

1. Cause the spell critical system in unbalanced (1000s of points a damage a second).
2. Cause we do not use a spell/day per level system, We use a mana system, so you really do not have to choose to much what you cast like in PnP.
3. Um, too many shrines. And people can leave dungeons and return.
4. So what you have now is all the spell-castes loot running the high level quests like Litany on Elite, and most the time do not even need us melee types. They just destructed every single thing, oh run out of mana..np...go get more.


1. Change the way spell resistance works.
2. Take those shrines out of hard and elite quests.
3. Lock the dungeons.

4. GIVE US OUR NEXT ATTACK, and pls double our crit range and add one for the multiplier for the last attack. If you can keep the mob on you for 5 attacks you should get an nice bonus at the end.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Any fighter that can't keep up with the mages in an average dungeon needs a reroll.


Edit: Oh, and the melees are also WAY overpowered in equipment, damage, to-hit, and hp to PnP so saying the mages are buffed up here is kinda meaningless, everything is supercharged here.

[Taojeff]

Any fighter that can't keep up with the mages in an average dungeon needs a reroll.


Edit: Oh, and the melees are also WAY overpowered in equipment, damage, to-hit, and hp to PnP so saying the mages are buffed up here is kinda meaningless, everything is supercharged here.

Oh your so right, I can instant kill or do over a 1000s points a damage a second too, must have just not been using my 1000s a second weapon, sorry my bad.

[Yaga_Nub]

Oh your so right, I can instant kill or do over a 1000s points a damage a second too, must have just not been using my 1000s a second weapon, sorry my bad.

Vorpals.

Disruptors.

Smiters.

w/p weapons.

We do alright. Quit worrying about balance and worry more about that demon/devil invasion in January.

[Laith]

It's been said before, but making SR apply to damage spells (like it should) would probably go the furthest to fix this.

Currently, if a mob has SR the caster just reverts to damage spells. No big loss. These are precisely the mobs that the caster is supposed to be at a severe disadvantage to, but they simply aren't.

It would also remove the mob casters godly/kill first status. Course, the buffs they lay out would still be reason enough to aim there first.

[Taojeff]

It's been said before, but making SR apply to damage spells (like it should) would probably go the furthest to fix this.

Currently, if a mob has SR the caster just reverts to damage spells. No big loss. These are precisely the mobs that the caster is supposed to be at a severe disadvantage to, but they simply aren't.

It would also remove the mob casters godly/kill first status. Course, the buffs they lay out would still be reason enough to aim there first.

You wanna switch it around, just start giving the enemy mobs the kind of spell casting power we have, I mean they are high CR anyway right. Let them do that kind of damage. I bet you will hear NERF real quick.

[Oreg]

burst dps is irrelevant. Saying you can do 1000 pts /s is meaningless once a) sp's are depleted or b) that mob/ group of mobs is dead and there is more coming. Lots more. Over the course of a mid length quest - 30 minutes or so. Good tanks can stay close or surpass (especially where certain mobs exist) caster kill counts.

I play both fighters and sorcs regularly and they are both good.

[MysticTheurge]

It's been said before, but making SR apply to damage spells (like it should) would probably go the furthest to fix this.

That and/or implementing a more restrictive metamagic system. (Perhaps like the one I suggested pre-Mod-5.)

[Agarwaen]

Vorpals.

Disruptors.

Smiters.

w/p weapons.

Get a lot of milage out of those in Ghosts or Litany do you? Teojeff is right on most of what he says. When 90% of the groups running late-game content (especially scale runs, Ghosts and Litany) are all caster/cleric or 5caster/1 melee, something needs to be adjusted.

[Fallout]

Get a lot of milage out of those in Ghosts or Litany do you? Teojeff is right on most of what he says. When 90% of the groups running late-game content (especially scale runs, Ghosts and Litany) are all caster/cleric or 5caster/1 melee, something needs to be adjusted.

Yeah Ghost groups are now 4-5 casters and a cleric. Thanks for making quests that makes melee obsolete.

[Raithe]

Get a lot of milage out of those in Ghosts or Litany do you? Teojeff is right on most of what he says. When 90% of the groups running late-game content (especially scale runs, Ghosts and Litany) are all caster/cleric or 5caster/1 melee, something needs to be adjusted.

Yep. The player base - it needs a good swift kick to some area of the body that hurts.

Let's take Ghosts of Perdition for example. Taking 5 clerics and a caster in there is just a brute force method used to circumvent actual strategy. If something goes wrong that winds up depleting SP, they are likely to end up recalling a time or 2 just like every other group. On the other hand, if melee in the quest would realize that its probably the (acid or force based) caster or cleric's job to take down the Doomsphere, and everyone else's job to take care of themselves and each other, the quest would probably actually be completable in a single attempt.

Melee are just now waking up to the fact that they aren't essential for any quest in DDO? Please... it's been like that for a really, really long time...

[Yaga_Nub]

Get a lot of milage out of those in Ghosts or Litany do you? Teojeff is right on most of what he says. When 90% of the groups running late-game content (especially scale runs, Ghosts and Litany) are all caster/cleric or 5caster/1 melee, something needs to be adjusted.

I haven't found that Ghost groups are asking for all casters.

Now you say that they are, I say they're not and which is right? Both? Neither?

I have both melees and arcanes (no clerics, clerics suck ). I get into groups because I'm a good player and I CAN be fun to be around, unless you're more of an idiot that I am, in which case I promise that you will not have fun with me in the group (and you might need to get or go see a psychiatrist are the run). Melees might need some small boost but they will never equal a mage as long as you are using DnD rules. Someone mentioned that the 4.0 ruleset might be changing that but until then it is what it is.

Keep posting because it's good to hear thoughts and give input. Just don't be mad if it doesn't change because of your posts.

[Cowdenicus]

Get a lot of milage out of those in Ghosts or Litany do you? Teojeff is right on most of what he says. When 90% of the groups running late-game content (especially scale runs, Ghosts and Litany) are all caster/cleric or 5caster/1 melee, something needs to be adjusted.

And in Mod 3.....

wait when it was 4-5 melee and a healer or buffbot it was A ok....

[gpk]

Vorpals.

Disruptors.

Smiters.

w/p weapons.

We do alright. Quit worrying about balance and worry more about that demon/devil invasion in January.

I get these for free when I level up right?

Let's see vorpal :5% (less due to confirmation roll)
Disruptor: It's great in von5, everyone had 1 in mod1 right?
Smiters: Great in Von4 and 5, still great on clay and iron golems (all 3 of em). But then there are those pesky Flesh Golems...5% for joo!

w/p weapons yep these rapiers are great, espcially on my crit rage 2 barbarian. I was so happy when I hit level 14 and these 2 were in the mail! Thanks Coin Lords!

[MondoGrunday]

Any fighter that can't keep up with the mages in an average dungeon needs a reroll.


Edit: Oh, and the melees are also WAY overpowered in equipment, damage, to-hit, and hp to PnP so saying the mages are buffed up here is kinda meaningless, everything is supercharged here.

i'm thinking if your mages allow fighters to keep up, then it is your mage that needs the reroll. casters own melee any way you want to look at it. i play capped versions of both and in no way can my fighter or barb match kills of my sorc. i would gladly back my words to any tank that thinks they can out kill a sorc in any "average" dungeon.

[smatt]

Any fighter that can't keep up with the mages in an average dungeon needs a reroll.

Ummmmmmm.... No comment


[qoute] Edit: Oh, and the melees are also WAY overpowered in equipment, damage, to-hit, and hp to PnP so saying the mages are buffed up here is kinda meaningless, everything is supercharged here.[/quote]

Yes tanks perhaps by a magnatude of 1, Pali's oh dear they need a bit of help, rogues well two weapon tank builds do great dps, but the trap monkeys????? Rangers can be really tough bastards but true ranged rangers could use a bit of help. Barbs, well a well built one kicks butt, but still takes a fair amount of damage while doing so.

No casters are indeed over-powered by a magnatude of say 3, a bit of a nerf would do the whole game good

[Agarwaen]

No casters are indeed over-powered by a magnatude of say 3, a bit of a nerf would do the whole game good

I think the only way we will see party diversity on late game content is with a combination of changes/additions to class abilities and changes to gameplay, with the latter being far, far more valuable than the former.

For example: toning down metamagic = little bit more class balance. I'm not sure it would do anything to encourage party diversity, which seems to me the bigger issue.

Monsters actually realizing their biscuits are burning? Whole heckuva lot more balance and diversity. Mobs smart enough to dispel a firewall and then blitz the caster...wooo, now we're talking. Maybe even throw down an anti-magic shell? Soulstone of Arcane #1 says to Soulstone of Arcane #2, "Can you remind me why we came in here without the melees one more time?" Honestly, if they start making mobs smarter, they probably wont have to touch metamagic at all.

The change I would most like to see to the game as far as enhancements go, would be for them to add two parts to their plan to "make traps more deadly." 1) Give them higher reflex saves, and 2) Increase barb and rogue trap sense increases from +1 to +2 or +3. That, in conjunction with more random trap locations and traps that have to be passed through, would definitely make rogues more sought after in parties.

What about initiative and surprise rolls? That's one of the biggest variables in PnP gameplay. If a DDO party lost their surprise roll and was frozen a second, allowing enemy casters to get the first shot, that would really make things more difficult. The mobs wouldn't even have to cast something uber--speaking from experience, a simple silence spell can suck in a serious way. Those are the kind of reasons casters don't run around alone in PnP, and it seems simple enough to add to the game.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Hey, I guess everyone notices how much melee classes suck compared to casters now at high level. Yes, Yes I know casters are suppose to be better then other classes at high level. In PnP, there is at least some cool uber feats to help balance them out....or you can become a weapon master or such.

In DDO casters are even more out of balance then PnP. Why?

1. Cause the spell critical system in unbalanced (1000s of points a damage a second).
2. Cause we do not use a spell/day per level system, We use a mana system, so you really do not have to choose to much what you cast like in PnP.
3. Um, too many shrines. And people can leave dungeons and return.
4. So what you have now is all the spell-castes loot running the high level quests like Litany on Elite, and most the time do not even need us melee types. They just destructed every single thing, oh run out of mana..np...go get more.


1. Change the way spell resistance works.
2. Take those shrines out of hard and elite quests.
3. Lock the dungeons.

4. GIVE US OUR NEXT ATTACK, and pls double our crit range and add one for the multiplier for the last attack. If you can keep the mob on you for 5 attacks you should get an nice bonus at the end.

melees can take damage, have combat abilities, ac, hps, skills, equipment, theyre fine. my melees can keep up with casters. whats wrong with yours?

[Aspenor]

Figure out a different way to contribute than damage. Not all of DDO is about kill counts.

High AC, saves, and HP, INTIMIDATE ftw!

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Not all of DDO is about kill counts.

High AC, saves, and HP, INTIMIDATE ftw!

Oh rly?