Bringing Melee classes back in line with casters

[Agarwaen]

Even though I know others have said this, in this post even, the real issue isn't that casters are overpowered. It's that there are a large number of people who play casters that are capped so they don't mind recalling for mana. They also don't mind paying tons of PP for mana pots.

You know, this just goes to show how new I am still: I never thought of this and had never read it. That is definitely a part of the problem, as the party diversity issue only gets out of hand with capped toons.

I like Lizardgrad89s idea on the mana penalty, but I think it would have to be more severe. 50% mana wouldn't stop people from leaving, just make them leave more often I fear.

This shouldn't be too hard to implement programmatically: if a character has an active instance, mana will not recharge at a tavern. Seems as simple as
open instance = true, no mana recharge
open instance = false, mana recharge

The mana pots will still be an issue. They would have to give out plat refunds for those or something. And, of course, then there will be the simultaneous cry of "NERF" by all the solo enthusiasts...oh just forget it, it will never happen even if it would improve the game experience for the average grouping player.

Mystic's solution is pretty cool, but it would need a bit of tweaking. If implemented as-is, I can see people just switching to a different toon and rejoining the party rather than taking the negative level hit.

[GlassCannon]

Even though I know others have said this, in this post even, the real issue isn't that casters are overpowered. It's that there are a large number of people who play casters that are capped so they don't mind recalling for mana. They also don't mind paying tons of PP for mana pots.

How about all mana pots get removed from the game and we have a -25K xp penalty for leaving a quest if you aren't dead.

Additionally, what if we get rid of that stupid xp regen mechanism that we have. You lost the xp, you gain it back.

Why don't we just delete everyone's character once it gets capped, without warning or waiting? You hit the XP cap, it's immediately deleted.

Why don't we also auto-delete casters that enable all the metamagics at once?

Why don't we also send out assassins to people's houses who buy plat?

Seriously... talk about overboard.

We're trying to BRING PEOPLE HERE not make them leave of utter hatred and loathing of the game.

I do, however, think our Plat Cap is far too high.

[GlassCannon]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=129513

[Chaos000]

this isn't correct. SR applies against most AoE spells (well, ALL of the ones that say yes to Spell Resistance in their description). If someone in the area makes a SR check, they are unaffected without cancelling out the spell for others in the area.

Basically, even if every single being inside of a fireball makes their SR checks, the fireball still went off (just no one got hurt).

The system is already in effect for AoE non-damage spells correctly right now. If you cast hold person mass, all targets get their SR & saves. those that fail are held, those that save or make SR aren't.

When the Devs first introduced Drow, players complained that the SR only applied to non-damage spells. I believe a developer (in an interview) at that time made mention that they personally hated the idea of spell resistance in the first place and that it will stay the way it is.

so in DDO, SR doesn't apply vs. damaging spells.

would a buncha SR spec'd (evasion coupled) players running around in the game disrupt balance issues?

[Aesop]

well on the Metamagic thing if they matched up more closely with the Unearthed Arcana SP system they could limited sp on a spell spent a little easier... I mean just limit it to your Caster Level and that would make things a bit more balanced... but with the system that spells cost spell level x5 + 5 ... it's a little tougher.

I mean you could just have it so it didn't let you cast a spell that added up to higher than you can cast with the metamagics counting as spell levels based on their SP cost.

Extend = lvl 1
Empower=lvl 2
Maximize = lvl 3

then a firewall from a 14th level caster would be able to be maximized or... empowered and extended but not all three... in fact even at 20th level it wouldn't be all three... that would make those Metamagic items really valuable... as they wouldn't count against the total.



As far as the SR thing... I have no problem with them adding in the original SR rules... as long as they add in some of the SR bypass spells as well. Like Assay Resistance ... and on a different axis of the bypass SR route... Orb of _____

I think reverting to the old metamagic system would stink and I do not advocate that at all.

Aesop

[Aesop]

When the Devs first introduced Drow, players complained that the SR only applied to non-damage spells. I believe a developer (in an interview) at that time made mention that they personally hated the idea of spell resistance in the first place and that it will stay the way it is.

so in DDO, SR doesn't apply vs. damaging spells.

would a buncha SR spec'd (evasion coupled) players running around in the game disrupt balance issues?

yeah but I don't think he works here any more... wasn't that "he who shall not be named"?



Aesop

[MysticTheurge]

yeah but I don't think he works here any more... wasn't that "he who shall not be named"?

Yes.

[banzaz]

make it where ae spells do damage to the party as well as the bad men. i mean in pnp it took me a while becuse i was too young to understand wear and when to use my flashy fireballs or prismatic sprays and yes i killed a few members of the group while i learned to do this but i did learn how to do this and when . so if a caster dose kill his party a that same caster will not live long after and how many parties will want a wipe so more thought will be in what type of members a group takes and what battle plans are mad. there will be no more hold this door while i firewall it or firewall and jump around and let mobs die becuse the squish who dose that will die befor the mobs that have 5 times his hps will be up but he will not.

[Vengenance]

While I agree with the OP to a certain extent, I find it funny that all the people who, for the first year+ of DDO's existance, played in groups of 5 melees and one caster - are only now complaining about group make ups

/signed

Casters suck at low levels and only really become power-houses at high level. I've found that quests can be completed with pretty much any group dynamic so long as each individual player knows there part and how to contribute. My pal Rameses, a 13 rogue /1 cleric was able to fill the role of main cleric on an elite Stormreaver Raid. I've ran groups with all rangers and rogues and haven't had a problem. My advice is to learn to play your character properly and you won't have any problems competing with casters at high level, or if you feel inferior when grouping with casters then create your own parties and don't invite them.

[wrinyn]

well on the Metamagic thing if they matched up more closely with the Unearthed Arcana SP system they could limited sp on a spell spent a little easier... I mean just limit it to your Caster Level and that would make things a bit more balanced... but with the system that spells cost spell level x5 + 5 ... it's a little tougher.

I mean you could just have it so it didn't let you cast a spell that added up to higher than you can cast with the metamagics counting as spell levels based on their SP cost.

Extend = lvl 1
Empower=lvl 2
Maximize = lvl 3

then a firewall from a 14th level caster would be able to be maximized or... empowered and extended but not all three... in fact even at 20th level it wouldn't be all three... that would make those Metamagic items really valuable... as they wouldn't count against the total.



As far as the SR thing... I have no problem with them adding in the original SR rules... as long as they add in some of the SR bypass spells as well. Like Assay Resistance ... and on a different axis of the bypass SR route... Orb of _____

I think reverting to the old metamagic system would stink and I do not advocate that at all.

Aesop

I personally agree with this idea of metamagic since it is very similar to the way meta was supposed to be like. I will admit to being exposed to this first in NWN however. This will limit the caster somewhat but it will make sorcerers more specialized. They will have to make decisions based on what they want to maximize etc. It could be interesting....I am now seeing the true strength of the necromancer with the addition of FoD and Mass Haste. I am now able to solo dungeons with those two spells that I haven't been able to solo easily before. I must say in contradiction to that, that I am relieved to see the true power coming through from the pain of the lower and mid levels.....

In response to the SR issue, I must say that I can't stand Duegar and Drow for their SR. I have to refer to DD spells which waste my mana as opposed to the CC and instant death spells I employ. So SR would be more interesting if it was for all spells but I would want it lowered to a much more reasonable level if it were....

[Agarwaen]

I've found that quests can be completed with pretty much any group dynamic so long as each individual player knows there part and how to contribute. My pal Rameses, a 13 rogue /1 cleric was able to fill the role of main cleric on an elite Stormreaver Raid. I've ran groups with all rangers and rogues and haven't had a problem.

I have absolutely no problem believing what you say about Rameses: I have learned a ton from his posts about how to play a rogue. However, I would love to see you or him take a group of rangers and rogues into Ghosts and come out in tact on the other side without using a few thousand plat worth of resources. It is already established that a group of clerics and casters can do it both easily and quickly. But Rangers and Rogues? That would make for an amazing story, and would be worthy of a comprehensive how-to post in the new accomplishments thread.

[Staedtler]

I have absolutely no problem believing what you say about Rameses: I have learned a ton from his posts about how to play a rogue. However, I would love to see you or him take a group of rangers and rogues into Ghosts and come out in tact on the other side without using a few thousand plat worth of resources. It is already established that a group of clerics and casters can do it both easily and quickly. But Rangers and Rogues? That would make for an amazing story, and would be worthy of a comprehensive how-to post in the new accomplishments thread.

Ghosts is an exception, not the rule.

[Taojeff]

I have absolutely no problem believing what you say about Rameses: I have learned a ton from his posts about how to play a rogue. However, I would love to see you or him take a group of rangers and rogues into Ghosts and come out in tact on the other side without using a few thousand plat worth of resources. It is already established that a group of clerics and casters can do it both easily and quickly. But Rangers and Rogues? That would make for an amazing story, and would be worthy of a comprehensive how-to post in the new accomplishments thread.

The first time I did this with my ranger (dwarven ranger 46 ac (+3 more vs. undead) while dual-wielding 270+ hitpoints), I did the majority of the work on the beholder by circle strafing while hasted. Brought back memory of soloing the queen. I died after the floor fell out the final time and the wheeps got me. Now, I use to think my ranger was exceptional, but I see alot of rangers now with similar stats recently. So people I guess are catching on the dwarven rangers are the ****. (Took you long enough, I had this guys beta and just rerolled him for 32 with the favor system came out. Anyway, I am by no exceptional, others could do this.

The problem is that casters could do it a lot easier, once they figure out how to cheese it. And it is this way for just about every quest. The first week it is out, everyone participates equally and usually has fun, although a during this period the people who usually come up with a lot of the cheeses are saying things like its too hard, they should nerf this and that. Finally a couple major guilds find out how to run the stuff easily (with no skill I might add). ... and it quickly escalates to the standard way to do thing.

A perfect example is the pre-raid, you need maybe one tank to do this quest, and in part of it he is just a sacrifice. All the other characters are casters of some sort that just spam firewall or blade barrier till the monsters are dead.

I wanna know are we that cheap that we get a sense of accomplishment to cheese quests and loot run them over and over again.

It certainly is not hard, interesting, or challenging an any way. Are we that easily amused. This game has so much to offer in the way of combat feats and tactics, but half of the adventures end up being cheesed in someways. Thanks US!!!! We ruined the game.

[Agarwaen]

I wanna know are we that cheap that we get a sense of accomplishment to cheese quests and loot run them over and over again. It certainly is not hard, interesting, or challenging an any way. Are we that easily amused. This game has so much to offer in the way of combat feats and tactics, but half of the adventures end up being cheesed in someways. Thanks US!!!! We ruined the game.

Well said, from the first to the last. Cheesy exploits do indeed detract from the game, and we (the players) are to blame for a lot of that. However, I also think some of the blame lies with the developers. I refuse to accept, for instance, that it is impossible to program mobs to realize they are burning to death and then act accordingly.

This thread started out great: as a discussion about how to improve the quality of the game, but it only took about one page for it to go from an edifying discussion to an overly emotional "nerf them. No, nerf them" juvenile argument.

It's really ironic how most of us expect great things from the developers while we ourselves can't seem to even make it to the end of a thread without a meltdown. Much less come up with a solution or brilliant idea.

[Cyndder]

Well said, from the first to the last. Cheesy exploits do indeed detract from the game, and we (the players) are to blame for a lot of that. However, I also think some of the blame lies with the developers. I refuse to accept, for instance, that it is impossible to program mobs to realize they are burning to death and then act accordingly.

This thread started out great: as a discussion about how to improve the quality of the game, but it only took about one page for it to go from an edifying discussion to an overly emotional "nerf them. No, nerf them" juvenile argument.

It's really ironic how most of us expect great things from the developers while we ourselves can't seem to even make it to the end of a thread without a meltdown. Much less a solution or brilliant idea.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=129493&page=6

This discussion started in another thread about nerfing casters in addition to this post about boosting fighters. I posted some comments about this in the other thread which can be found at the link above. But just a synopsis of my thoughts as they apply to both casters and melee types.

.... I would; however, state that this does not appear to be an issue of the failure of the devs to overlooking this possibility [stacked multipliers]but of the game content being dynamic enough to reduce the number of these type of power builds. Make the content more dynamic and these types of builds become less of a concern.

Let me give you a few examples.

Prison of the Plane; Law room is the easiest room. Answer a few questions and your done. What if the occupants of each room were random? What if the behold poped in instead? And to make it interesting he pops in with both the fire and cold 'fire shield' spell active!

Necropolis; Rat pile. What if each wave of rats had a differnet elemental immunity; or each wave was composed of rats with different immunites in each wave? The strategies would have to adapt to the changes and challenges presented.

This could also be applied to fighter types (blungeon, slashing, and piercing) in addition to the others.

So why you may know the room ahead has a troll in it...if could be an Infernia battle troll who won't take fire from nobody!

[Serpent]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=129493&page=6

This discussion started in another thread about nerfing casters in addition to this post about boosting fighters. I posted some comments about this in the other thread which can be found at the link above. But just a synopsis of my thoughts as they apply to both casters and melee types.

.... I would; however, state that this does not appear to be an issue of the failure of the devs to overlooking this possibility [stacked multipliers]but of the game content being dynamic enough to reduce the number of these type of power builds. Make the content more dynamic and these types of builds become less of a concern.

Let me give you a few examples.

Prison of the Plane; Law room is the easiest room. Answer a few questions and your done. What if the occupants of each room were random? What if the behold poped in instead? And to make it interesting he pops in with both the fire and cold 'fire shield' spell active!

Necropolis; Rat pile. What if each wave of rats had a differnet elemental immunity; or each wave was composed of rats with different immunites in each wave? The strategies would have to adapt to the changes and challenges presented.

This could also be applied to fighter types (blungeon, slashing, and piercing) in addition to the others.

So why you may know the room ahead has a troll in it...if could be an Infernia battle troll who won't take fire from nobody!

Well put sir i like your idea. My thread was not necessarily nerf casters it was how we can stop the growing gap between the classes. it focused mainly on casters because it was what was being thought of at the time. Change can come in many forms. What I suggested was jsut that , a suggestion. More thinking like what you said needs to be done by everyone.

[Cowdenicus]

Get a lot of milage out of those in Ghosts or Litany do you? Teojeff is right on most of what he says. When 90% of the groups running late-game content (especially scale runs, Ghosts and Litany) are all caster/cleric or 5caster/1 melee, something needs to be adjusted.

And in Mod 3.....

wait when it was 4-5 melee and a healer or buffbot it was A ok....

[soulthunder]

I read the first 5 pages of this thread before going cross-eyed, but this entire discussion is missing one important element in it's discussion. You are speaking of capped lvl 14 casters who aren't worried about xp, xp debt, re-entering penalties, or anything else that comes with a cap on the content.

I remember a time when casters had pk.....that was it for insta death....scorching ray was a single ray and still wasn't very powerful...CK and solid fog where godly and the only time a caster was allowed to use them without irritating the entire party(due to graphic design) was if it was faster than letting the 4 melee in the party destroy the room...and 80% of a casters spellbook was toilet paper for the melee in the party who only waited for haste. I remember a lot of other stuff too, but moving right along...

Suggesting that changes need to be enacted for balance between classes when we have been at the current lvl cap for months on end just doesn't seem prudent to me. I don't recall people running into GoP or Vol immediately after mod 5 launched with 4 sorcs and 2 clerics. I'm not saying sorcerers and wizards aren't powerful, I am saying that many of them aren't playing as they would if there were an unknown lurking around the corner. Mod 5 was especially harder on the melee classes given that it is consisting mostly of undead and they are immune to critical hits and are for the most part vulnerable to fire which happens to be the bread and butter of most damage dealing casters. Given that, this entire discussion is skewed from a vantage point of complacency in our current surroundings that gives the illusion that casters are superior to all other classes for damage and effectiveness.

If you want to stop some of the power casting classes exhibit, lets try to find out where 10 stacks of 100 major mneumonics came from on the AH and how someone is able to sell them for 200k plat each...hmmm. Casters may have unlimited power at present, but let the devils and demons of mod 6 descend upon us and let's get a little further into the progression of the game before we cry foul for melee.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I have absolutely no problem believing what you say about Rameses: I have learned a ton from his posts about how to play a rogue. However, I would love to see you or him take a group of rangers and rogues into Ghosts and come out in tact on the other side without using a few thousand plat worth of resources. It is already established that a group of clerics and casters can do it both easily and quickly. But Rangers and Rogues? That would make for an amazing story, and would be worthy of a comprehensive how-to post in the new accomplishments thread.

But Ghost can be done with 1 caster, 1 secondary healer, and a bunch of melee types. Having 1 caster seems to be a must but thats about it.

[Xaxx]

My main is a tank and I might add a very good tank. With my sorc, there is not one tank type that can come close to keeping up on kills. NOT CLOSE. The fab five have nothing on a Finger, PK, 1000+ point fireball, S. Ray, C. of Cold, etc. I can hit multiple mobs for far more damage than any tank can dream of. Hell a firewall maximized and empowered will out damage any tank, and that is low DPS. Put 2 clerics and four sorcs in a grop together and just about everty quest in the game is a joke. Oh, with 2028 SP I run with maximize, empower, heighten, and extend on at all times and RARLY run out of SP. If I do, I pop a major or two and I am good to go.

I repeat, my main is a tank.

As for "do something else for your group". Yeah it is a lot of fun intimidating everything so you can kill everything. Woooo Hoooo. I would rather have another caster to help kill things faster.

oh so it was ok when in early game most of the casters sps went to buffign the tanks and they stood back and threw out a few dmg spells and such... that was just fine... wait thats kinda boring... but casters did it for a freaking year... finally they change the metamagic system to bring casters in line with what they should be and you wanna moan..... what the hell

dnd at its core is this
low levs tanks rule, casters wiggle figners for a minuite then run away
mid levs casters start to equal tanks
high levs casters dominate whatever they see

this is ddo, and that is the core of dnd, casters should be the ultimate burst damage and tanks should be the better long term damage... which is still how things are

so a few of the newer quests the accepted way of doing things is "ok lets train it to the door then firewall/bladebarier till its dead".... is this every quest... nope.... time to start looking at the game as a whole not at your kill count for 3 quests and go what the heck, my killl count isnt high in these couple quests... ok somethings wrong.

Some situations casters are better, some situations tanks are better.... in the end thats how its supposed to be. If you want casters toned down, I want attack progressions reduced to what they should be just for starters... oh btw i've run to 14 a sorc, wiz, pally, fighter, bard, cleric, and even a battle cleric, I've seen every side to the argument and things are now more in line with how they should be.