Bringing Melee classes back in line with casters

[Invalid_86]

That's kind of what I suggested back before we saw what the metamagic rewrite was gonna be.

I think I still like it better as a system.

See that's making sense.

[Taojeff]

It's been suggested that Spell Crits are the cause of the problem; they're not. They only contribute very slightly.

It's also been suggested that increasing the damage of melee-combatant classes would help. It's true that would improve the balance situation, but it would also be really bad for gameplay. It would lead to all characters (not just sorcs and wizards) able to kill monsters under a second after you meet them, which would lead to a fix of all monsters getting better saves and 5x more hitpoints than they already have. Plus, increasing power of melee classes would go against PnP rules, while decreasing power of casters would go closer to the rulebooks (after all, the rules NEVER allow a level 14 sorc to use a Maximized Empowered Disintegrate)

Also, the mana system, number of shrines, and re-entry of quests are not major issues. It would be nice to see more quests where it's impractical to recall for mana, but that's not critical.

To reduce the number of shrines per quest would somewhat improve balance, because it would weaken casters (and barbarians) more than other classes- but it would not be good for gameplay. Yes, it would reduce the amount of power a caster can put out during the quest, but it would also reduce the number of actions he could take. That means adding time when the caster can't do anything useful, and just sits around bored waiting until the party needs him. That's not fun. Instead of reducing the number of times he can cast spells in combat, it would be better to reduce the power those spells have. There's a very simple first step: Revert the metamagic changes from module 5.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=129493

They could use wands, the same thing the did before they got so overpowered.

[SneakThief]

While I can understand all the "ha ha the shoes on the other foot now" comments, they really aren't productive. When 90% of the end-game content is easier to complete with a group of casters and clerics than it is with a balanced party, that is not good for the game.

Yeah ... see there's the problem right there ...

90% of the people are so short-sighted they cant see past mod 5. So people have been talking about the Orchard, and specifically Ghosts. Quests full of undead that are vulnerable to fire. Especially Ghosts!!!! Yes, for Mod5 content, and any other undead content, Fire Wall and Fire Ball are goddly. Get over it. Thats not the end game!

Next mod we will end up with a ***load of demons and devils with insane spell resistance and crazy immunities to elemental damage. All that will be left will be disintegrate and blade barrier. Casters and Clerics will be dropping like leaves again, and we will be back to hearing the melees asking the casters to not draw aggro ....

Yes, we shouldnt be able to cast Maximize/Empowerd disentegrate as that deviates from the written meta-magic rules ... so fix that ... leave the rest alone. Of course, then you have to go rebalance all the mobs that have 15,000HP ... Cuz the melee's are NEVER going to get those down quick enough.

[Yaga_Nub]

Well I haven't started my own thread on it. I've just been arguing it in other people's threads so far.

Well then could you start your own thread on it?

[Taojeff]

Normally at 15th level casters need muscle around to give them time to do their stuff, allow them to conserve resources, and contain the situation if things go pear shaped. The most overpowering thing right now is that very little can go wrong for a caster such that any of these are true. Thus caster can solo or duo many things which no other classes can do. This is not good.

But I would suggest a major nerf is not in any way required. 3 things would likely solve the problem so that arcanes/clerics have massive power but a fragility that requires melee back up.

1. Mobs should be smarter about AOE damage. Right now if things go bad you drop a firewall and jump around while they cook. This is silly beyond belief. Thankfully it sounds like this might be addressed in Mod 6. We will have to see.

2. Fix metamagics so that you have to stay within castable limits of spells. No dropping 2 meta magics on a 7th level spell as you would need to be able to cast 9th or higher level spells to do that.

3. Fix agro on spells. When the fighters are told to hide behind the caster while he FOD's the room, something is wrong. The problem here is that 8 guys in the room don't seem to notice when one of their comrades drop dead. At the first FOD, the mobs should come running (thus requiring the fighters to handle the swarm).

IMHO, none of these are a significant nerf and all are reasonable within the context of the game. Also note that none of these changes are intended to restrict casters to conserve their resources. We don't want to go back to the point where casters have to wait in the hall while the fight occurs so that they don't waste a spell. They need to participate in all the content. All characters need to participate.

Just have spells deal friendly-fire too...then you will see how unbalanced the current system is.
They should be dealing friendly fire anyway. No mage in PnP is going to fireball down in the middle of a party. Metamagic and critical systems both need to be brought down. Wizards should have to memorize spells as meta (2 levels higher and such), certain spells should not be able to be meta (like disentagrate).

Give the monsters this system and you will see how overpowered it is.... Monsters Cone of Cold the entire party for 500 points of damage, wipe end of adventure.

[MysticTheurge]

Well then could you start your own thread on it?

I don't think I can bring myself to subject the boards to another thread on the topic.

[Invalid_86]

I don't think I can bring myself to subject the boards to another thread on the topic.

Not when everybody knows that what we really need is another respec thread!
Ugh.

[Serpent]

Given that the D&D system adds a flat amount determined by the metamagic, how is a system that adds a variable amount determined by the metamagic and the spell closer to D&D?

I say this because under the spell point system in unearthed arcana (which I assume id where Turbines original idea for this system comes from) that is how the cost of a meta magic is decided. Meta magics have no static cost. The spell point cost is based upon the actual spell level after the meta magic has been applied. Its a complicated system that would not transfer to DDO. I think we are arguing semantics at this point. A needed change is apparent from both our povs.

Side note for all that have not seen it, look up the Unearthed Arcana. Pages 154 tell how they do SP, its amazing the differnce.

[Raithe]

See... I'm actually not against nerfing casters. I think charm spells, and mob behavior around AoE's definitely need fixed. I'm also in favor of the limiting metamagics to a certain sp limit.

I'm just going to be really, really, sad if it all gets done in the name of "Bringing melee classes back in line with casters."

Really, really sad. <--- TWO sad faces

Next mod we will end up with a ***load of demons and devils with insane spell resistance and crazy immunities to elemental damage.

Exactly.

[MysticTheurge]

I say this because under the spell point system in unearthed arcana (which I assume id where Turbines original idea for this system comes from) that is how the cost of a meta magic is decided. Meta magics have no static cost. The spell point cost is based upon the actual spell level after the meta magic has been applied. Its a complicated system that would not transfer to DDO. I think we are arguing semantics at this point. A needed change is apparent from both our povs.

Side note for all that have not seen it, look up the Unearthed Arcana. Pages 154 tell how they do SP, its amazing the differnce.

You're going to have to quote this for me because that's not what the SRD says.

From here

In the spell point system, a GM has two options for how to adjudicate metamagic effects. In either case, casters need not specially prepare metamagic versions of their spells—they can simply choose to apply the metamagic effect at the time of casting. Doing this does not increase the spell’s casting time.

The first option is to apply an additional spell point cost to any spell cast with a metamagic feat. This option allows a character maximum flexibility in his choice of spellcasting. Effectively, the character must pay for the spell as if it were a higher-level spell, based on the adjustment from the metamagic feat. If the metamagic effect(s) would increase the spell’s effective level above what he is capable of casting, he can’t cast the spell in that way.

The second option is completely different and essentially eliminates the cost in exchange for making it an x/day ability. It's not relevant to the discussion but I'm including it here for completeness.

The second option is simpler but less flexible. In this option, each selection of a metamagic feat allows a character to apply the feat’s effects three times per day at no additional spell point cost. The normal limit for maximum spell level applies (a 7th-level wizard can’t empower any spell higher than 2nd level, for instance).

No where in that does it indicate that the cost to metamagic a spell is adjusted based on the spell being metamagic'd. The cost of the metamagic is based solely on the adjustment of the metamagic feat and increases the cost to the cost of a spell that the metamagic'd spell would be under the spell slot system.

Thus, an empowered (+2) third level spell costs the same as a fifth level spell, or a difference 4 spell points. An empowered fifth level spell costs the same as a seventh level spell, or a difference of 4 spell points. Empowering a spell costs 4 more spell points, regardless of what level the base spell is.

[Cap_Man]

Don't think we should nerf casters. But I would like to see the quests sealed so you can't leave and recharge.

This would make things a little more challenging for everyone as if you die and cant reach (or be carried) to a shrine and no one can raise you then to bad so sad no loot for you .

I know there are some like that now, VON 6 comes to mind .. any others?

[Agarwaen]

No casters are indeed over-powered by a magnatude of say 3, a bit of a nerf would do the whole game good

I think the only way we will see party diversity on late game content is with a combination of changes/additions to class abilities and changes to gameplay, with the latter being far, far more valuable than the former.

For example: toning down metamagic = little bit more class balance. I'm not sure it would do anything to encourage party diversity, which seems to me the bigger issue.

Monsters actually realizing their biscuits are burning? Whole heckuva lot more balance and diversity. Mobs smart enough to dispel a firewall and then blitz the caster...wooo, now we're talking. Maybe even throw down an anti-magic shell? Soulstone of Arcane #1 says to Soulstone of Arcane #2, "Can you remind me why we came in here without the melees one more time?" Honestly, if they start making mobs smarter, they probably wont have to touch metamagic at all.

The change I would most like to see to the game as far as enhancements go, would be for them to add two parts to their plan to "make traps more deadly." 1) Give them higher reflex saves, and 2) Increase barb and rogue trap sense increases from +1 to +2 or +3. That, in conjunction with more random trap locations and traps that have to be passed through, would definitely make rogues more sought after in parties.

What about initiative and surprise rolls? That's one of the biggest variables in PnP gameplay. If a DDO party lost their surprise roll and was frozen a second, allowing enemy casters to get the first shot, that would really make things more difficult. The mobs wouldn't even have to cast something uber--speaking from experience, a simple silence spell can suck in a serious way. Those are the kind of reasons casters don't run around alone in PnP, and it seems simple enough to add to the game.

[Serpent]

Thus, an empowered (+2) third level spell costs the same as a fifth level spell, or a difference 4 spell points. An empowered fifth level spell costs the same as a seventh level spell, or a difference of 4 spell points. Empowering a spell costs 4 more spell points, regardless of what level the base spell is.

I misunderstood what you were saying. My apologies lots of threads going on today. what I was referring to the old system was that the application of meta magics effectively mimicked this system by placing some spells at a high enough SP cost to eliminate from use at times. This imo represents the idea that you can only spend so much SP on spell cause you are limited by your available spell level. if we kept the current system I would like to see a increase in the cost of meta magic feats, to bring this possibility closer.

I see where you are coming from and the implementation of mod 5 has happened. I just worry that stating so low will invariably nerf meta magics too much or not enough leaving us in the same area.

[MysticTheurge]

if we kept the current system I would like to see a increase in the cost of meta magic feats, to bring this possibility closer.

What they should actually do is implement the last sentence of each of those options.

Empowered spells count as two levels higher, so if you can't cast a spell of that level, you can't empower it.

So no empowered/maximized disintegrates. It just doesn't work.

Cap the new metamagic system and you solve most of it's problems.

[Yaga_Nub]

Even though I know others have said this, in this post even, the real issue isn't that casters are overpowered. It's that there are a large number of people who play casters that are capped so they don't mind recalling for mana. They also don't mind paying tons of PP for mana pots.

How about all mana pots get removed from the game and we have a -25K xp penalty for leaving a quest if you aren't dead.

Additionally, what if we get rid of that stupid xp regen mechanism that we have. You lost the xp, you gain it back.

[Lizardgrad89]

Don't think we should nerf casters. But I would like to see the quests sealed so you can't leave and recharge.

This would make things a little more challenging for everyone as if you die and cant reach (or be carried) to a shrine and no one can raise you then to bad so sad no loot for you .

I know there are some like that now, VON 6 comes to mind .. any others?

One (three-part) question:

How do you do this and deal with the party wipe issue? After all, if the quest is locked, and the party wipes, doesn't the quest have to be re-started? I mean, nobody can get back in, right?

Different idea:

Any toon re-entering a quest takes a 50&#37; mana penalty. You can still do it, but it's less valuable an option.

[MysticTheurge]

How about all mana pots get removed from the game and we have a -25K xp penalty for leaving a quest if you aren't dead.

I was actually thinking about a non-XP penalty for re-entering a quest. Something along the lines of a negative level that can't be dispelled or something. You could potentially even just apply it to capped characters, since everyone else has the XP-hit to discourage them.

What do people think about that?

[Invalid_86]

Or make it that you can only finish out if the quest is done. Otherwise you have to walk all the way back out and walk all the way back in- if you can.

[GrayOldDruid]

What they should actually do is implement the last sentence of each of those options.

Empowered spells count as two levels higher, so if you can't cast a spell of that level, you can't empower it.

So no empowered/maximized disintegrates. It just doesn't work.

Cap the new metamagic system and you solve most of it's problems.

I agree with this. If you can't cast spells of 2 levels higher, you can't empower that spell... if you can't cast spells of 4 levels higher, you can't maximize that spell. It would surely solve a lot of the ... er.. well, then casters would just cast it twice ... so... *shrug* same effect, just takes a second or two longer. Same should be done with Heighten, enlarge, etc. Doing this by saying at level 7 you can spend at most 35 points on a single spell (or whatever the math works out to)... would be about the same thing as putting in a whole new system, with a lot less coding.

That AND making it so you can't recall out of a quest and re-enter 'just because'. "Releasing" when dead would be okay, but not just recalling mid-quest. And the having to get back to the door would be solved with Dimension door....

[MysticTheurge]

then casters would just cast it twice ... so... *shrug* same effect, just takes a second or two longer.

And costs more.