Bringing Melee classes back in line with casters

[gpk]

I just don't see melees being under powered and soon you'll have a 5th attack. I think many people think Palladins and Fighters are for DPS, neither should be able to out DPS a Barbarian THF or a Ranger or a Rogue TWF (Especially if they are STR based).

Last I heard the 5th attack didn't miraculously double melee power. Heck at this point all we know it's at a +10 attack bonus (down from the proposed+15), we don't know how it will increase the attack rate etc. Again, we know it will not double melee power, I'd wager dollars to doughnuts it won't even be a 25% boost.

[Raithe]

Well you mention previously that "every other group recalls once or twice" and now you mention of acid or force based caster to take down the doomsphere, you've just demonstrated to us that you play with very bad casters.

My sorceror has nothing spellwise that affects the Doomsphere significantly. A very infrequent disentigrate that isn't saved against is pretty much it. I know from first hand experience that acid and force can do a lot of damage fairly quickly, and I've actually been in a group that completed it on elite (no optionals) without recalling and with only a few deaths.

Most groups I've been in are not like that. Things can most certainly go wrong, and if you've never been in a bad Ghosts of Perdition group, well you must be either really lucky or play with some super awesome uber leetz players...

So thats a good thing?

Is this a real question? Of course it is.

[GrayOldDruid]

Yeah Ghost groups are now 4-5 casters and a cleric. Thanks for making quests that makes melee obsolete.

WHAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaa! Two quests don't REQUIRE fighters!! WHAAAaaaaaa~~~

LOTS of quests don't require casters.
LOTS of quests don't require rogues.
LOTS of quests don't require ranged.

come on... seriously.... You spent the whole game turning your noses up at Rogues and Rangers and sometimes Sorcerers or Wizards and NOW you want to whine because TWO quests don't require Melee?

You're kidding?

[AMERON]

you guys get other spells? my wizard only has haste,web and stoneskin .......

[wrinyn]

While I agree with the OP to a certain extent, I find it funny that all the people who, for the first year+ of DDO's existance, played in groups of 5 melees and one caster - are only now complaining about group make ups

That hits the nail on the head. I guess some melees forgot comments like..."could you just hang back and keep the real damage dealers hasted". Or, "Please go back and pick up heroism"....OR...Please don't cast the FB because you will just get agro and waste the clerics sp's......

Now history rewrites itself...ha,ha

[KoboldKiller]

Why is everyone so concerned with have and have not. Each class has it's strengths and weaknesses. Play what is fun to you. I run with two guildie clerics most of the time. Half of the time they slay living things before my Pali can hit them, so what? The quest gets comleted I have fun and we all win. I have yet to find quests where any class couldn't be usefull. So the casters can run things without melee's, big deal make your own group. There seems to be this push for parity in this game but how would that make anyone unique? Anyway JMHO, I have no problem with the power level of casters, on another note though and a bit hypocritical, ranged attack is a bit under powered.

[Agarwaen]

While I can understand all the "ha ha the shoes on the other foot now" comments, they really aren't productive. When 90% of the end-game content is easier to complete with a group of casters and clerics than it is with a balanced party, that is not good for the game.

[gpk]

That hits the nail on the head. I guess some melees forgot comments like..."could you just hang back and keep the real damage dealers hasted". Or, "Please go back and pick up heroism"....OR...Please don't cast the FB because you will just get agro and waste the clerics sp's......

Now history rewrites itself...ha,ha

Awesome, another student at the Revenge School of Balance.

[Aspenor]

Stop defining yourself by the kill count and find ways to be useful.

[Laith]

When 90% of the end-game content is easier to complete with a group of casters and clerics than it is with a balanced party, that is not good for the game.

90%?

Stop defining yourself by the kill count and find ways to be useful.

While you're at it, you'll probably find you enjoy your character & the game more, too.

[EinarMal]

Stop defining yourself by the kill count and find ways to be useful.

Excuse me Mr. Caster can I shine up your boots or wash that nice Fearsome Robe for you sir?

[Agarwaen]

90%?

Well, maybe it's a flawed perception on my part. In fact, I hope it is. Ghosts is obviously the paradigm of caster/cleric bias, but it seems to me that--on Thelanis--groups for almost everything are becoming more and more caster/cleric heavy. I'm only talking about groups forming for level 14 capped toons here, not level 10-12 or whatnot. I just worry that it is a trend that will become more and more pronounced unless some type of rebalancing is done. If it reaches the point where everyone is rolling casters and clerics in order to run end-game content more often, that would be really bad. And really boring.

[Missing_Minds]

You wanna switch it around, just start giving the enemy mobs the kind of spell casting power we have, I mean they are high CR anyway right. Let them do that kind of damage. I bet you will hear NERF real quick.

Fair enough, then give us unlimted mana as well.

melees... lets see here. When was the last time you saw any melee ever get tired, exhausted, or what not that was not caused by a spell.

The simple argument is that you can swing your sword, axe, what have you 24/7 and never need rest. Mages have to rest for kill power.

There in lies your balance.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Vorpals.
Disruptors.
Smiters.
w/p weapons.
We do alright. Quit worrying about balance and worry more about that demon/devil invasion in January.

Exactly, plus my Barb can swing with his vorpal/greater bane an unlimited number of times, my caster has a limit.

It's been said before, but making SR apply to damage spells (like it should) would probably go the furthest to fix this.

Currently, if a mob has SR the caster just reverts to damage spells. No big loss. These are precisely the mobs that the caster is supposed to be at a severe disadvantage to, but they simply aren't.

It would also remove the mob casters godly/kill first status. Course, the buffs they lay out would still be reason enough to aim there first.

This I agree with...on the condition that the red/purple blanket immunites be removed. Give them appropriate SR instead.

While I can understand all the "ha ha the shoes on the other foot now" comments, they really aren't productive. When 90% of the end-game content is easier to complete with a group of casters and clerics than it is with a balanced party, that is not good for the game.

We aren't at the end of the game. I'm sure there will be slightly different complaining after we see the next set of abilities/spells/monsters.

Maybe that's the problem though... even if we were at L20 now and nothing new was comming, who cares how the exact balance is at the end... as you level the power is supposed to shift several times and it does. Oh right, half the people on the forums power level their way up using 5 quests in 48 hours so you don't actually play anything but the last level of content - now there is the root problem.

Stop defining yourself by the kill count and find ways to be useful.

Agreed.

[oogly54]

A full group of casters can handle any GH quest on elite easy without tanks. Even the preraid is easier wothout tanks. The only quest in MOD four that needs a caster is the raid, and even then they only need to distract the giant until the orbs are lit, then just get out of the way.

I repeat, my main is a tank.

My sorc can solo several level 14 quests without trouble, averaging only 12 or so minutes for quests like cabal. Any tank able to do that without using an ungodly about of heal pots?

[Westerner]

A large crux of the problem is that people can simply recall and come back quest. Becuase of that simply no need for SP management.

I agree. Recalling/reentering to replenish unbalances things. Higher end dungeons should be locked once you've entered them. This helps address the issue without specifically nerfing casters.

[Fallout]

WHAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaa! Two quests don't REQUIRE fighters!! WHAAAaaaaaa~~~

You're kidding?

Sacrasm is lost on some people.

[Agarwaen]

half the people on the forums power level their way up using 5 quests in 48 hours so you don't actually play anything but the last level of content - now there is the root problem.

That isn't my issue, because I do very little power leveling and still enjoy playing the various quests when I am at the appropriate level. But, here I sit with a capped rogue and fighter, and it would be a lot easier to get into level 14 content if I were playing a caster or a cleric instead. Almost all the groups have more casters and clerics than they do melee, and those that don't are sitting outside the quest waiting for them to join. This is especially the case if you want to do scale runs or Ghosts.

I'm not so sure that locking out recalls for mana would fix things. People are still going to want to finish quests as quickly and easily as possible, so wouldn't this just drive up demand for Plat farmer mana pots? I could also see the bias against melee getting even WORSE: if mana becomes even more precious, do you think sorc/cleric parties are all of a sudden going to come looking for melees so they can waste their mana on buffs, or just completely forbid non-casters from joining the group?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Excuse me Mr. Caster can I shine up your boots or wash that nice Fearsome Robe for you sir?

I have yet to make a toon that consistantly gets the high kill count.....but I don't think most of the people who play with me think my toon is/was useless. (granted some of the uber elite probably do.....the one's obsessed with kill counts)

I build toons that are versitile and self sufficent as a rule.......no 1000pt firewalls or heal spells for me.

The toons I have that do usually get the high kill counts are fighter types. Low and mid lvl drawf fighters rule!

I have a lvl10 Sor that disables virtually everything in a dungeon and frequently finishes a quest with a zero kill count!
But I would hardly call her useless........
Tear of Dhakaan elite last weekend....cleric said: "You know, I do actually enjoy heling people on occcasion."
Another toon said: I'm really liking this spamming of hold spells.

Granted this was a caster, but my point is that there are lots of ways to be contribute.....

All my wizard ever heard until Mod 4+ was: Haste please! Haste! Can I get a GH?! Fire resist! Stone Skin!

The Sor I mentioned above didn't even have haste until lvl 10 for that reason......

I don't like the current tactic of firewall, firewall, firewall...
But I would hardly say that other classes are underpowered or unnecessary.

I think people who's only tactic is to spam max empowered firewalls on everything are boring and know nothing of tactics.
But I also can see that their method does succeed in getting the quest done.

People do die....people do need ro recall for mana......people do expect DVs. A clerics job now is just to raise and DV and no one ever tries any new tactics....they are all capped anyway and don't care about XP at all.

I'm not even sure which side of this argument I'm on right now.....
I hate nerfs!
I think AI and dungeon design should take current player tactics into consideration.

A elemental energy resistant/proofed foe would go a long way.
Anti-magic fields would go along way.

In general, I have disliked the enhancement system from the beginning, since it overpowers everything in the game.
But if the baddies have 1000hp then we should be able to do enough damage to take them down.

Honestly, I don't even understand how people get 1000pt firewalls. The spell description seems to make it inferior to fireball spells for damage for instance. I think Turbine should take a closer look at how the damage is being implemented.

But I also think that as soon as monsters stop standing in the fire, things we be a lot different.

[Aspenor]

Excuse me Mr. Caster can I shine up your boots or wash that nice Fearsome Robe for you sir?

No.

*sniffs* Do you bathe, in that armor??