Bringing Melee classes back in line with casters

[JFeenstra]

i dont know what kind of casters you're running into, but mine typically out kills the entire party (even one with 3-4 casters)...it usually looks something like;

me: 64
rest of party: 10

on the average gianthold quest...

i don't use metamagics (other than heighten) and i'm definitely not a damage build...i blow through anythings sr (i think i've got a +22 with maxed enhancements, 34 cha and spell pen feats) and the dc on my worst spell hits a measly 29

firewall still crits at over 120, average tick is somewhere around 30-40 points on a regular mod

i've yet to meet a tank that can keep up, considering i can easily solo most quests without recalling for sp provided there's at least one shrine

now, i do have two tanks (one capped, one 13) tricked out with every weapon you can imagine (dual weilding vorpals, greater everything bane, smiters, paralyzers, banishers, disruptors, cursespewing, you name it i've got 3-4+ of them) and am lucky to get a dozen kills with a caster equivalent to mine in the party (unless it's a quest like gh tor where things can't be instakilled)...i can out kill dps casters (to some extent, average 1h swing is 35-40 on a non-crit, but with critting on a 15 for 2x-3x hitting an 80 average isn't hard) but no way can i touch a caster where everythings dead before it gets within view, this makes for a very boring tanking experience (oh yay i get to loot a chest and break down a door here and there...and i get to fight the end boss)

nerfing metamagics to take down dps casters will result in dc/FoD/Pk casters running rampant...sure two max/empowered dbfs can take down your average mob for a few hundred sp, but you've gotta use the same sp cost to take out 1 guy as you do 20...

i say leave it the way it is and fix the AI...dancing around in a firewall without being under the influence of something (like say, dance sphere) is just stupid...and being able to take out a whole mob with fod/pk before they see you is as well, i think the major issue here is the AI, not the players...there's always going to be uber builds and someones always going to find something that's overpowered, thats just how it is with MMOs

[Hvymetal]

But Ghost can be done with 1 caster, 1 secondary healer, and a bunch of melee types. Having 1 caster seems to be a must but thats about it.

The funny thing about this statement was after all the discussion in the previous threads about boosting Rogues the one argument that kept coming up was (and one I totally agree with also) no quest should REQUIRE any class.....

[Hvymetal]

In PnP rules, image an arena with your fighter and another person's mage where you face off at say 100 feet away. Round 1- Mage wins initiative, casts Fly on himself and goes up in the air 30 feet. Fighter can't reach him. Round 2- Mage cast Hold Person on fighter, fighter fails saving throw and well, it's all over.

Or imagine another scenario tipped the other way. Rogue bumps into his quarry (a wizard) as they both turn a corner of an alley. Round 1. Rogue wins initiative. No round 2.


The difference you missed in your example was initiative & distance/circumstances. Yes in P&P a caster at high levels in a straight up fight with plenty of room and time to react will win hands down. Unfortunatly this is not P&P, it is a MMO that imitates the flavor of P&P. Balance in ALL classes is a good thing, makes more people happy. Try listening to John Stuart Mills.

I play mainly Rogues, I'm used to getting the short end of the stick. For those that played casters early in the game, did you enjoy your early role in parties? Why would you wish others to be in even a worse position? Man some of the attitudes I see around these days make me very very sad for the so called human race

[Geonis]

You can have a 300 HP's, 50 STR, 50 AC, swing 10x a round and hit for 100 points damage but a well placed spell or two from a high level mage/cleric and well, you're dead. Think of the spells Hold Person, PK, FoD and Destruction just to name a few and you get the idea.
In PnP rules, image an arena with your fighter and another person's mage where you face off at say 100 feet away. Round 1- Mage wins initiative, casts Fly on himself and goes up in the air 30 feet. Fighter can't reach him. Round 2- Mage cast Hold Person on fighter, fighter fails saving throw and well, it's all over.

Then your Fighter is a friggin ****** (I mean that in the worst meaning of the word).

More probable events:

Wiz wins initiative and flies up 30'.

Fighter quickdraws bow and plunks 4 shots into the Wiz, more than likely critting on at least 1, for average damage of ( assuming +3 bow and +5 Str bonus) (9.5+9.5+9.5+28.5=57) possibly killing that Wizard (in PnP).


If that doesn't work (no Quickdraw, etc...):

Wiz wins initiative casts Fly, moves up 30'.

Fighter "refocuses", and goes first next round.

Fighter draws bow and shoots once, hitting (more likely than not) for ~10 points of damage.

Wizard now has to make a Concentration check of 15 + (damage taken) +(spell level), very possible failing his spell.

Next round, the Fighter goes first, and gets all 4 attacks.

Doesn't look good for the Wizard.

[JFeenstra]

just to back up my point, a recent run with my barb (leading in kills with two dps casters in the party)

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/6613/castersrz7.png

yeah, casters are overpowered, thats why tanks can easily outkill them

[~Trilou]

My main is a spell pen focused 14th lvl soc. I must say, if I >>>WANT<<< no fighter in gainthold can keep up on kills (as in some other quest). However, there are still plenty of quest (for a soc that is) that because of immunity or big DR that tanks are more then needed. The thing I find about 1/2 the tanks out there just want casters to buff/hear/cc ans thats all. You think its no fun to run a quest that your only taking agro... try just buffing at the start, then only being needed for haste/healing! Point is, quit your whinning. Dont run with group dynamics that you dont like. Also, 1000's every second is a little exagerated ( unless your lumping death spells in). Last thing, I only played PnP original basic set and some of second edition. In both of these, you would NEVER zerg a a fighter in a party, as you... and most likely the party, end up dead!


Remember all... THIS IS A GAME... have fun~ !

[smatt]

just to back up my point, a recent run with my barb (leading in kills with two dps casters in the party)

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/6613/castersrz7.png

yeah, casters are overpowered, thats why tanks can easily outkill them

Must've been suck ass casters nd Im sure given the couple of your psots I've read, that you indeed are as uber and awesome as you obviously consider yourself

[Henrieta]

Sometimes even people get so wrapped up in the moment that they fail to notice their flesh burning or being teared to shreds. Don't forget all those times you see your teammates running through a drow scorpions blade barrier endlessly even though the party cleric told everyone that he/she will not be using that spell. Plus there are those times when that great teammate is so focused on attacking that he/she overlooks the fire icon at the top of their screen and their diminishing health bar while standing in a lich's firewall. Anyone else see a slight comparison/reason with monster AI? A change to make this more realistic would involve allowing many of the somewhat intelligent enemies to know not to enter/cross every firewall blade barrier trap they come across when chasing those pesky adventurers.
I dislike the idea of making monster spells a different color than players.

[Emili]

just to back up my point, a recent run with my barb (leading in kills with two dps casters in the party)

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/6613/castersrz7.png

yeah, casters are overpowered, thats why tanks can easily outkill them

Your 29 minute complete time tells me the story... This is a 15-20 min run for a lone sorc. LOL, is because the casters did not care ... look at the bloody quest you're in. If the casters cared about kill count you could not even run to the mob quicker than they'd die. Your barb cannot possible deal the dps of any damage spec'd caster ... I know I have a DPS barb and casters also, a good player with a caster brings a min 3 fold DPS what your barb can do period.

Again this does not come down to the who has... who has not. It comes down to player consideration. If the caster plays team wise or is just surging as if they're soloing.

Now then considering this. Your previous post refers to how great your caster is, now this one how great your barb is. So I'll give you a word od advice... Scrap your bloody barb because it's useless compared to your caster! You'll get you loot much quicker and you do not even have to take a party with you.

[Ranmaru2]

Hrmmm...First Barbarians are overpowered and must be nerfed, now casters...What next? The Cleric's Blade Barrier is killing too much and the clerics are playing too much like wizards and need to be nerfed? IS ANYTHING GOOD TO YOU PEOPLE? Almost everything in the game is argued about and isn't balanced if you were to read the threads of the last 5-20 pages of General/Development Discussion.

We're reaching higher level content, where Wizards are supposed to acquire massive amounts of power, so why shouldn't they have the massive killing power that they have? There's a reason that there are usually magi in the city councils of PnP modules, as they're supposed to be very powerful compared to the rest. Think about it, they're connected to the very fabric that creates their world and know how to manipulate it to their bidding, isn't that something to make them more powerful than a blade already?

I can already foresee Melees complaining like crazy if they ever put in Weird or Wail of the Banshee because the kills of the wizard are going to surpass that of the melees, when a higher level wizard is supposed to be the powerhouse of the group.

Ok..kill counts aren't as high..ummm whatever. If you were using a paralyzer and keeping the mobs from the caster, be happy you contributed to a group and were one of the reasons that caster lived that long to get that many kills. Casters can't summon a wall of shields to be a shield blocking wall, so you contribute to strategy there as well. Not to mention, we may have heavy fort, but it's not like we can take multiple hits of that 40-80 point giant club flying into our chest.

[Yen_Lo_Wang]

Well D&D is all about letting the players make up their own stratergies their own plans their own imagination, The dm provides the basic world and layout and the mobs and story bout it. If theres a trap there should never be just one way to deal with it if theres a bunch of mobs there should never be one sort of party that can only tackle it. Problem is that the players choice on how things get done keep getting reduced in game and people decide to go with somewhat easier method of play in a caster. More Choices should be added into the game rather the linear one track monorail its become where if a stratergy isn't like it gets removed, or the quest is built to be taken out in only a certain way deviate and you will be shot.

[Shade]

I play both max dps barbarian and sorcerer as my main 2 characters, and find them fairly well balanced for overall DPS/Killcounts.

Theres certain quests where casters dominate - like ghosts of perdition, and certain ones where melee do - like madstone crater.. But overall there pretty close.

Infact even in ghost of perdition my barbarian can keep up with my sorcerer in overall dps on the beholder just by using a bit more crazy tactics (my sorc safely featherfalls down and attacks with disintegrate for 600-1000 dmg a bit - but slow cooldown.. Vs my barbarian who takes off his featherfall and rushes down there like a maniac and gets a good 10+ swings off before the party even reachs me - and with his excellent hp and save he survies that just fine. So with 10 swings @ about 60-90 dmg per swing before the party is even there vs a single 600 pnt disintegrate (maybe 2 if others are slacking) - thats about even really. Criticals are similar too, 200ish for my barbarian and 950 for my sorc. and actually share a similar chance i think around 15&#37; (greater lore on my sorc, and phase hammer is 20 -2 for crit rage = 18-20 or 15%.

Sorcs can dominate in dps vs bosses that are imune to criticals - since nothing is imune to magic criticals tho.

[Shade]

Depending on how the 5th attack works out - sorcerer will gain the advantage in mod6 tho by a bit.. Tho not much, +2d6 x mods dmg increase vs whatever better raid gear mod6 gives melees.

[MysticTheurge]

Depending on how the 5th attack works out ...

If it stays the way it is now, it's actually slowing you down, from what I hear.

So... sorcerers for sure.

[Pyromaniac]

I think what I've seen is its the skill of the player that is the key thing in how well they do. There are some classes that are ahead or behind in certain areas at certain points in the game.

If you build a poor toon, that is undergeared and if you can't play well - then you can't really contribute. Its not a balance issue.

[Borror0]

High AC, saves, and HP, INTIMIDATE ftw!

QFT

[samagee]

Then your Fighter is a friggin ****** (I mean that in the worst meaning of the word).

More probable events:

Wiz wins initiative and flies up 30'.

Fighter quickdraws bow and plunks 4 shots into the Wiz, more than likely critting on at least 1, for average damage of ( assuming +3 bow and +5 Str bonus) (9.5+9.5+9.5+28.5=57) possibly killing that Wizard (in PnP).


If that doesn't work (no Quickdraw, etc...):

Wiz wins initiative casts Fly, moves up 30'.

Fighter "refocuses", and goes first next round.

Fighter draws bow and shoots once, hitting (more likely than not) for ~10 points of damage.

Wizard now has to make a Concentration check of 15 + (damage taken) +(spell level), very possible failing his spell.

Next round, the Fighter goes first, and gets all 4 attacks.

Doesn't look good for the Wizard.

First off, always take out the range weapons. Windwall comes into mind for that. The higher the level, the more weapons a castor has. Prismatic sphere is real nice. If a fighter has to move to get to the castor, the fighter is most likely dead if he doesnt have magical items and such.

If the fight starts near each other. The castor better be a combat castor for any chance to stand his/her ground. Of course you also have to factor in magical items and the dice roll.

[Taojeff]

Then your Fighter is a friggin ****** (I mean that in the worst meaning of the word).

More probable events:

Wiz wins initiative and flies up 30'.

Fighter quickdraws bow and plunks 4 shots into the Wiz, more than likely critting on at least 1, for average damage of ( assuming +3 bow and +5 Str bonus) (9.5+9.5+9.5+28.5=57) possibly killing that Wizard (in PnP).


If that doesn't work (no Quickdraw, etc...):

Wiz wins initiative casts Fly, moves up 30'.

Fighter "refocuses", and goes first next round.

Fighter draws bow and shoots once, hitting (more likely than not) for ~10 points of damage.

Wizard now has to make a Concentration check of 15 + (damage taken) +(spell level), very possible failing his spell.

Next round, the Fighter goes first, and gets all 4 attacks.

Doesn't look good for the Wizard.

Please refrain from name-calling, as it invalidates the source of all information you then post (namely you).