Bringing Melee classes back in line with casters

[Taojeff]

Hey, I guess everyone notices how much melee classes suck compared to casters now at high level. Yes, Yes I know casters are suppose to be better then other classes at high level. In PnP, there is at least some cool uber feats to help balance them out....or you can become a weapon master or such.

In DDO casters are even more out of balance then PnP. Why?

1. Cause the spell critical system in unbalanced (1000s of points a damage a second).
2. Cause we do not use a spell/day per level system, We use a mana system, so you really do not have to choose to much what you cast like in PnP.
3. Um, too many shrines. And people can leave dungeons and return.
4. So what you have now is all the spell-castes loot running the high level quests like Litany on Elite, and most the time do not even need us melee types. They just destructed every single thing, oh run out of mana..np...go get more.


1. Change the way spell resistance works.
2. Take those shrines out of hard and elite quests.
3. Lock the dungeons.

4. GIVE US OUR NEXT ATTACK, and pls double our crit range and add one for the multiplier for the last attack. If you can keep the mob on you for 5 attacks you should get an nice bonus at the end.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Any fighter that can't keep up with the mages in an average dungeon needs a reroll.


Edit: Oh, and the melees are also WAY overpowered in equipment, damage, to-hit, and hp to PnP so saying the mages are buffed up here is kinda meaningless, everything is supercharged here.

[Taojeff]

Any fighter that can't keep up with the mages in an average dungeon needs a reroll.


Edit: Oh, and the melees are also WAY overpowered in equipment, damage, to-hit, and hp to PnP so saying the mages are buffed up here is kinda meaningless, everything is supercharged here.

Oh your so right, I can instant kill or do over a 1000s points a damage a second too, must have just not been using my 1000s a second weapon, sorry my bad.

[Yaga_Nub]

Oh your so right, I can instant kill or do over a 1000s points a damage a second too, must have just not been using my 1000s a second weapon, sorry my bad.

Vorpals.

Disruptors.

Smiters.

w/p weapons.

We do alright. Quit worrying about balance and worry more about that demon/devil invasion in January.

[Laith]

It's been said before, but making SR apply to damage spells (like it should) would probably go the furthest to fix this.

Currently, if a mob has SR the caster just reverts to damage spells. No big loss. These are precisely the mobs that the caster is supposed to be at a severe disadvantage to, but they simply aren't.

It would also remove the mob casters godly/kill first status. Course, the buffs they lay out would still be reason enough to aim there first.

[Taojeff]

It's been said before, but making SR apply to damage spells (like it should) would probably go the furthest to fix this.

Currently, if a mob has SR the caster just reverts to damage spells. No big loss. These are precisely the mobs that the caster is supposed to be at a severe disadvantage to, but they simply aren't.

It would also remove the mob casters godly/kill first status. Course, the buffs they lay out would still be reason enough to aim there first.

You wanna switch it around, just start giving the enemy mobs the kind of spell casting power we have, I mean they are high CR anyway right. Let them do that kind of damage. I bet you will hear NERF real quick.

[Oreg]

burst dps is irrelevant. Saying you can do 1000 pts /s is meaningless once a) sp's are depleted or b) that mob/ group of mobs is dead and there is more coming. Lots more. Over the course of a mid length quest - 30 minutes or so. Good tanks can stay close or surpass (especially where certain mobs exist) caster kill counts.

I play both fighters and sorcs regularly and they are both good.

[Agarwaen]

Vorpals.

Disruptors.

Smiters.

w/p weapons.

Get a lot of milage out of those in Ghosts or Litany do you? Teojeff is right on most of what he says. When 90% of the groups running late-game content (especially scale runs, Ghosts and Litany) are all caster/cleric or 5caster/1 melee, something needs to be adjusted.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Hey, I guess everyone notices how much melee classes suck compared to casters now at high level. Yes, Yes I know casters are suppose to be better then other classes at high level. In PnP, there is at least some cool uber feats to help balance them out....or you can become a weapon master or such.

In DDO casters are even more out of balance then PnP. Why?

1. Cause the spell critical system in unbalanced (1000s of points a damage a second).
2. Cause we do not use a spell/day per level system, We use a mana system, so you really do not have to choose to much what you cast like in PnP.
3. Um, too many shrines. And people can leave dungeons and return.
4. So what you have now is all the spell-castes loot running the high level quests like Litany on Elite, and most the time do not even need us melee types. They just destructed every single thing, oh run out of mana..np...go get more.


1. Change the way spell resistance works.
2. Take those shrines out of hard and elite quests.
3. Lock the dungeons.

4. GIVE US OUR NEXT ATTACK, and pls double our crit range and add one for the multiplier for the last attack. If you can keep the mob on you for 5 attacks you should get an nice bonus at the end.

melees can take damage, have combat abilities, ac, hps, skills, equipment, theyre fine. my melees can keep up with casters. whats wrong with yours?

[Aspenor]

Figure out a different way to contribute than damage. Not all of DDO is about kill counts.

High AC, saves, and HP, INTIMIDATE ftw!

[llevenbaxx]

Dont many damage spell ignore SR in PnP also? Unless the spells are directly targetted at a mob, any SR they have isnt going to help them. Like fireball for example, If you are caught in the AOE of a fireball, SR does nothing. It using magic to create normal(non-magical) fire. Same thing for most conjuration spells. System would get pretty ugly im thinking.

[Laith]

Dont many damage spell ignore SR in PnP also?

correct: some do. mostly these are conjurations.

Unless the spells are directly targetted at a mob, any SR they have isnt going to help them. Like fireball for example, If you are caught in the AOE of a fireball, SR does nothing. It using magic to create normal(non-magical) fire. Same thing for most conjuration spells. System would get pretty ugly im thinking.

this isn't correct. SR applies against most AoE spells (well, ALL of the ones that say yes to Spell Resistance in their description). If someone in the area makes a SR check, they are unaffected without cancelling out the spell for others in the area.

Basically, even if every single being inside of a fireball makes their SR checks, the fireball still went off (just no one got hurt).

The system is already in effect for AoE non-damage spells correctly right now. If you cast hold person mass, all targets get their SR & saves. those that fail are held, those that save or make SR aren't.

[Fallout]

Get a lot of milage out of those in Ghosts or Litany do you? Teojeff is right on most of what he says. When 90% of the groups running late-game content (especially scale runs, Ghosts and Litany) are all caster/cleric or 5caster/1 melee, something needs to be adjusted.

Yeah Ghost groups are now 4-5 casters and a cleric. Thanks for making quests that makes melee obsolete.

[llevenbaxx]

correct: some do. mostly these are conjurations.

this isn't correct. SR applies against most AoE spells (well, ALL of the ones that say yes to Spell Resistance in their description). If someone in the area makes a SR check, they are unaffected without cancelling out the spell for others in the area.

Basically, even if every single being inside of a fireball makes their SR checks, the fireball still went off (just no one got hurt).

The system is already in effect for AoE non-damage spells correctly right now. If you cast hold person mass, all targets get their SR & saves. those that fail are held, those that save or make SR aren't.

Ah ty, been doing that wrong for a little bit.

[MysticTheurge]

It's been said before, but making SR apply to damage spells (like it should) would probably go the furthest to fix this.

That and/or implementing a more restrictive metamagic system. (Perhaps like the one I suggested pre-Mod-5.)

[oogly54]

My main is a tank and I might add a very good tank. With my sorc, there is not one tank type that can come close to keeping up on kills. NOT CLOSE. The fab five have nothing on a Finger, PK, 1000+ point fireball, S. Ray, C. of Cold, etc. I can hit multiple mobs for far more damage than any tank can dream of. Hell a firewall maximized and empowered will out damage any tank, and that is low DPS. Put 2 clerics and four sorcs in a grop together and just about everty quest in the game is a joke. Oh, with 2028 SP I run with maximize, empower, heighten, and extend on at all times and RARLY run out of SP. If I do, I pop a major or two and I am good to go.

I repeat, my main is a tank.

As for "do something else for your group". Yeah it is a lot of fun intimidating everything so you can kill everything. Woooo Hoooo. I would rather have another caster to help kill things faster.

[Raithe]

Get a lot of milage out of those in Ghosts or Litany do you? Teojeff is right on most of what he says. When 90% of the groups running late-game content (especially scale runs, Ghosts and Litany) are all caster/cleric or 5caster/1 melee, something needs to be adjusted.

Yep. The player base - it needs a good swift kick to some area of the body that hurts.

Let's take Ghosts of Perdition for example. Taking 5 clerics and a caster in there is just a brute force method used to circumvent actual strategy. If something goes wrong that winds up depleting SP, they are likely to end up recalling a time or 2 just like every other group. On the other hand, if melee in the quest would realize that its probably the (acid or force based) caster or cleric's job to take down the Doomsphere, and everyone else's job to take care of themselves and each other, the quest would probably actually be completable in a single attempt.

Melee are just now waking up to the fact that they aren't essential for any quest in DDO? Please... it's been like that for a really, really long time...

[ncarter555]

I just never understand people complaining about one class being better than another except for pvp purposes.

1. They are on your team....why not help them and stop worrying about who's better.

2. You are permitted to roll any character you would like.

3. If your disgruntled about group make ups....find 5 friends of your favorite classes and go run the group.

DDO does not require you to play with others. What one person loots in a dungeon has no effect on you EVER in non PVP....unless you are frustrated that they are beating you in kill count....then refer back to #2.

Honestly....when will people stop trying to nerf one class so that they can feel warm and cozy about the one they play.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Not all of DDO is about kill counts.

High AC, saves, and HP, INTIMIDATE ftw!

Oh rly?

[Oran_Lathor]

While I agree with the OP to a certain extent, I find it funny that all the people who, for the first year+ of DDO's existance, played in groups of 5 melees and one caster - are only now complaining about group make ups