Arcane Archer arrows

[captain1z]

Sorry but I felt this deserved its own thread. Its awesome that my ranger is already speced for this day 1...but thats not the point.


the arrows are a bit blah. returning is great but I dont think the progression is worth the cost.

I would like to see something like this:

Arcane Archer 1
+1 returning arrows at will

Arcane Archer 2
+1 returning arrow of your choice (cold,shock,acid,fire,force)

Arcane Archer 3
+1 transmuting returning arrow of your choice (cold,shock,fire,force)

Arcane Archer 4
+1 transmuting returning arrow of your choice (coldburst,shockingburst,fireburst,forceburst)

Arcane Archer 5
+1 transmuting phasing (ghost touch) returning arrow of your choice (listed burst types)


Personally I'd would have wanted
Flash arrows that blind in an area effect
Elemental arrows with an area effect
and maybe a few other spell variants that I cant think of now

but since this is the road chosen Ill stick with stuff along those lines


If you change the "at will" creation of these to an X times per rest and make it so only 1 created arrow can
exist at a time (you need to be able to toggle/dispel them) I dont see them as over-powered once you
conscider the cost.


-The static +1 - +5 bonus is underwhelming..... A good dex built ranger can hit anything with only a +1 bonus
-the returning is great ........ but even at 75% the house D arrows make me wanna save the APs and just get favor
(I ll get the house D arrows long before making the requirements for Arcane Archer)

Up side is that I dont have to carry generic arrows and I save on space.

the only comparison I can make to this enhancement line is The eschew materials which costs 1 feat and does something
similiar I estimate this enhancement line costing 10-15 APs .......

does 1 feat equal 10- 15 Aps?

I see myself only taking 1 level of this as the extra +4 to hit means very little to me (and a +5 bow over-rides the arrow)

My thoughts are a bit jumbled..so Ill bold the highlights and you guys can discuss this one if you are so inclined

(I took a long time writing this at work..so excuse me if this is now a duplicate of another thread)

[Cowdenicus]

True but with this line, you could have a +1 flaming burst bow of backstabbing +7 and use your free +5 arrows......

Of course I think maybe a default element should be in the list (with +5 being uber) so as to make the arrows more worthwhile.

like (all 1d6)
+1 fire
+2 cold
+3 sonic
+4 acid
+5 force

[chemonz]

The other thing to do is to ditch the arrows all together and just give a stacking +1 to hit/dmg with bows at each AA level. You can also give seeker arrow at level 2 (automatically hits), hail of arrows at level 3 (hits many enemies at once), and the death arrow at level 5 (insta-kill arrow). Just a thought.

[Yaga_Nub]

Yeah I want to be able to generate arrows of slaying!

[GrayOldDruid]

the arrows are a bit blah. returning is great but I dont think the progression is worth the cost.

That is so True.

I would like to see something like this:
Arcane Archer 1
+1 returning arrows at will
Arcane Archer 2
+1 returning arrow of your choice (cold,shock,acid,fire,force)
Arcane Archer 3
+1 transmuting returning arrow of your choice (cold,shock,fire,force)
Arcane Archer 4
+1 transmuting returning arrow of your choice (coldburst,shockingburst,fireburst,forceburst)
Arcane Archer 5
+1 transmuting phasing (ghost touch) returning arrow of your choice (listed burst types)

That sucks just as much or more. The + to hit/dmg should stay, with those special effects stacked on.... make it worth the APs.

If you change the "at will" creation of these to an X times per rest and make it so only 1 created arrow can
exist at a time (you need to be able to toggle/dispel them) I dont see them as over-powered once you
conscider the cost.

Only 1 arrow?? So, you want to make Rangers have one shot every 10 seconds? What if a flame strike or other such spell destroys that 1 arrow?? (small chance, but still a chance) No thank you. The 100 stack - even though we probably won't be shooting 100 at a time... it does stack with ManyShot, so we can use it with up to 4 arrows at a time, so the 1 arrow thing would make it totally suck.

-The static +1 - +5 bonus is underwhelming..... A good dex built ranger can hit anything with only a +1 bonus
-the returning is great ........ but even at 75% the house D arrows make me wanna save the APs and just get favor
(I ll get the house D arrows long before making the requirements for Arcane Archer)

Sure, any fully optimized, ranged-only uber-build will never have a problem... but, there are people who play the game for enjoyment and haven't exactly built the 'specialist' archer. The + to hit is good and as has been pointed out, will go good with +1 Paralyzing bow of pure good (etc).

Up side is that I dont have to carry generic arrows and I save on space.

That is one thing worth taking at least the first level of this line... I will save a WHOLE tab in my inventory. Woohoo!

Some other ideas on this from the "Weekly Dev Activities - 12/10/07" thread http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=129332&page=10:

Still, adding in something other than a +1 to hit/dmg for all those APs would be nice.

lvl 2 True Strike adds x1 crit multiplier
lvl 3 adding "Acid" or "Shock" or "Flaming" or "Frost" to the arrows would be cool. Have that add 1d6 elemental damage to the arrows.
lvl 4 True Strike adds +1 crit range (stacks)
lvl 5 add +1d6 to the elemental damage.

I've always felt a bit non-plussed by spending 6 action points for a +1 anything...

These arcane arrows will drop at quest end as well... .. then again, you're right, the arcane arrows are 100% returning... (doah!)

um... not so keen on the True Strike Adds stuff ... but

lvl 2 2d6 Elemental damage shots
lvl 3 3d6 Elemental shots
lvl 4 2d6 Elemental AoE shots
lvl 5 3d6 Elemental AoE shots

could be nice ... one a timer use maybe

Aesop

Not necessarily... but Something...

lvl 2 True Shot becomes +25 or +2d6 damage
lvl 4 True Shot becomes +30 or +3d6 damage

Something besides +1 to hit/dmg being ALL of it.

If they required some arcane levels instead of just mental toughness, then perhaps the arcane archer progression could allow something like

AA III
- +1 returning fire arrows or +3 returning arrows or 5 +1 fireball arrows/rest at caster level
AA IV
- +2 returning fire arrows or +4 returning arrows or 10 +2 fireball arrows/rest at caster level

etc.

Topic 2: Arcane Archer

I like the initial enhancement, but I'm a little underwhelmed by the later additions. There aren't any AP costs listed, but any more than 1AP per increase seems pretty steep. At the same time, abilities like Imbue Arrow, Hail of Arrows, and Arrow of Death are nowhere to be found. While Imbue Arrow and Hail of Arrows might simply be an aggro magnet with the HPs the monsters have in this game, Arrow of Death would be a great addition to Arcane Archer V. And, in exchange for Imbue Arrow and Hail of Arrows, how about the ability to choose an element to add to your arcane arrows, 1 element/ enhancement step for enhancement levels 2 -4? So if you take Arcane Archer II, you might choose Electricity. At Arcane Archer III, you might choose cold. All elements add 1d6 and only 1 element can be added per arrow, Though you could make separate stacks. So the above character could have a stack of +3 Electric Arrows and another stack of +3 Cold Arrows.

I would also like to see Flame Arrow work with non elemental Arcane Arrows. At level 5, an archer with an arcane level can use a wand of Flame Arrow to create 50 arrows/ 1 Normal arrows. 100 normal arrows make 5000 flame arrows. And as long as you have a +1 bow, you have a better to hit and do more damage than you would with Arcane Arrows. 5000 arrows is also usually enough for any 1 quest. If you can't use Flame Arrow, +3 Arcane Arrows are barely better that +3 Sturdy Denieth Arrows. They do free up some inventory space, but the number of APs and the levels required seem very expensive for little return.

[Shrazkil]

Sorry but I felt this deserved its own thread. Its awesome that my ranger is already speced for this day 1...but thats not the point.


the arrows are a bit blah. returning is great but I dont think the progression is worth the cost.

I would like to see something like this:

Arcane Archer 1
+1 returning arrows at will

Arcane Archer 2
+1 returning arrow of your choice (cold,shock,acid,fire,force)

Arcane Archer 3
+1 transmuting returning arrow of your choice (cold,shock,fire,force)

Arcane Archer 4
+1 transmuting returning arrow of your choice (coldburst,shockingburst,fireburst,forceburst)

Arcane Archer 5
+1 transmuting phasing (ghost touch) returning arrow of your choice (listed burst types)


Personally I'd would have wanted
Flash arrows that blind in an area effect
Elemental arrows with an area effect
and maybe a few other spell variants that I cant think of now

but since this is the road chosen Ill stick with stuff along those lines


If you change the "at will" creation of these to an X times per rest and make it so only 1 created arrow can
exist at a time (you need to be able to toggle/dispel them) I dont see them as over-powered once you
conscider the cost.


-The static +1 - +5 bonus is underwhelming..... A good dex built ranger can hit anything with only a +1 bonus
-the returning is great ........ but even at 75% the house D arrows make me wanna save the APs and just get favor
(I ll get the house D arrows long before making the requirements for Arcane Archer)

Up side is that I dont have to carry generic arrows and I save on space.

the only comparison I can make to this enhancement line is The eschew materials which costs 1 feat and does something
similiar I estimate this enhancement line costing 10-15 APs .......

does 1 feat equal 10- 15 Aps?

I see myself only taking 1 level of this as the extra +4 to hit means very little to me (and a +5 bow over-rides the arrow)

My thoughts are a bit jumbled..so Ill bold the highlights and you guys can discuss this one if you are so inclined

(I took a long time writing this at work..so excuse me if this is now a duplicate of another thread)

This is just the main "prestige" enhancement. It would be very easy to make branch off enhancement lines, so i wouldn't say its neccessary to worry about this yet.

They could just make lines like...

*element* arrows
Pre-req : Arcane archer
AP: 4
Any arrows generated through arcane archery are made *element* dealing an additional 1d6 points of *element* damage.

[oronisi]

The arcane archer arrows rock, I don't know what you guys are complaining about. +5 returning arrows = a +5 holy burst longbow of pure good, or a +5 disruptor with additional stuff on it. I don't think I would see any melees complaining about an ehancement that turned their +1 vorpal LS into a +5 vorpal LS.

[chemonz]

The arcane archer arrows rock, I don't know what you guys are complaining about. +5 returning arrows = a +5 holy burst longbow of pure good, or a +5 disruptor with additional stuff on it. I don't think I would see any melees complaining about an ehancement that turned their +1 vorpal LS into a +5 vorpal LS.

Except, +5 is not available until level 20, and Deneith 75% returning +3 arrows are readily available. This means that the AA enhancement line provides little benefit besides one of convenience (more backpack slots) until the 4th level of the AA enhancement line. So until the level cap is 20, the only real benefit is +1 for quite a few APs spent.

[Yaga_Nub]

This is from the d20 SRD:

Class Features

All of the following are Class Features of the arcane archer prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency

An arcane archer is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields.

So we miss out on this because of the enhancement system vs. a true class. I can live with that.

Enhance Arrow (Su)

At 1st level, every nonmagical arrow an arcane archer nocks and lets fly becomes magical, gaining a +1 enhancement bonus. Unlike magic weapons created by normal means, the archer need not spend experience points or gold pieces to accomplish this task. However, an archer’s magic arrows only function for her. For every two levels the character advances past 1st level in the prestige class, the magic arrows she creates gain +1 greater potency (+1 at 1st level, +2 at 3rd level, +3 at 5th level, +4 at 7th level, and +5 at 9th level).

We get this and that's very cool. But we miss out on all the rest of this stuff and that's where I have a problem.

Imbue Arrow (Sp)

At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted.

Although this would be cool, I can live without this one.

Seeker Arrow (Sp)

At 4th level, an arcane archer can launch an arrow once per day at a target known to her within range, and the arrow travels to the target, even around corners. Only an unavoidable obstacle or the limit of the arrow’s range prevents the arrow’s flight. This ability negates cover and concealment modifiers, but otherwise the attack is rolled normally. Using this ability is a standard action (and shooting the arrow is part of the action).

Again, a cool thing but not really necessary.

Phase Arrow (Sp)

At 6th level, an arcane archer can launch an arrow once per day at a target known to her within range, and the arrow travels to the target in a straight path, passing through any nonmagical barrier or wall in its way. (Any magical barrier stops the arrow.) This ability negates cover, concealment, and even armor modifiers, but otherwise the attack is rolled normally.

Using this ability is a standard action (and shooting the arrow is part of the action).

This could be put in.

Hail of Arrows (Sp)

In lieu of her regular attacks, once per day an arcane archer of 8th level or higher can fire an arrow at each and every target within range, to a maximum of one target for every arcane archer level she has earned. Each attack uses the archer’s primary attack bonus, and each enemy may only be targeted by a single arrow.

This could be put in.

Arrow of Death (Sp)

At 10th level, an arcane archer can create an arrow of death that forces the target, if damaged by the arrow’s attack, to make a DC 20 Fortitude save or be slain immediately. It takes one day to make an arrow of death, and the arrow only functions for the arcane archer who created it. The arrow of death lasts no longer than one year, and the archer can only have one such arrow in existence at a time.

This should absolutely be put in.

They should just rename this enhancement line to something other than arcane archer if they are going to give us such a limited subset of the abilities of that class.

Don't get me wrong, I love that they worked on this and it will be in the game. Just call it something else or keep working on it and let us know that you are going to enhance the enhancements in a future mod.

[oronisi]

Except, +5 is not available until level 20, and Deneith 75% returning +3 arrows are readily available. This means that the AA enhancement line provides little benefit besides one of convenience (more backpack slots) until the 4th level of the AA enhancement line. So until the level cap is 20, the only real benefit is +1 for quite a few APs spent.

That is a valid point. Perhaps the levels at which you aquire the arrows should be slightly increased, but I still think they are nice.

[GrayOldDruid]

More pulling from the Weekly Dev thread...

We still don't know (haven't seen it posted) how much these will cost. Paying an additional 6 APs for an additional +1 is horrible. There are benefits, but I have failed to see where +1 is worth 6 APs on any enhancement. The only thing that scales is the cost, not the benefit.

If it was +1, +1, +2, +2, +3 it would be better, not awesome, but better, where taking the whole 5, costing (based upon others) 20 or more APs would get you a grand total of +9 instead of +5. That is 5 character LEVELS worth of action points.

If they all cost only 2 APs, then, yeah... that is a good line, but if they cost 1, 2, 4, 6, 8 - then, it is non-plussing. All the benefit is in the first one with no real enticement to take the rest - other than spending 5 levels getting +4 to hit and damage, which with bloated enemy AC and HP, is not all that much return on investment.

If you're suggesting the elemental arrows cost More APs, why not just figure it into the cost already? The arrows are Bound and drop on exiting a Quest area, so.... its not like they will be passed around. The Plus One is not worth 4 APs.... so, for 4 APs, additional +1 and 1d6 elemental damage, for 6 APs, additional +1 and 2d6 Elemental AOE (the 2d6 would be the only dmg that is AOE, not the whole arrow+str+etc and not critable) Or anything besides JUST a measly +1

Heck, with flame arrow wands, the ONLY benefit to this line is extra inventory space and the every 10 second true-strike. I don't think I'd use the arcane arrows, come to think of it... my +3 Frost bow of pure good shooting Flame Arrows is better... and I already use the inventory space... so... just the True Strike (that doesn't get any better).

and.. come to think of it, the flame arrow wand doesn't use up an arrow stack, so when I get my UMD up to 95% or better with the wand, I can just carry two wands instead of 20 stacks of arrows.

[Benjai]

The arcane archer arrows rock, I don't know what you guys are complaining about. +5 returning arrows = a +5 holy burst longbow of pure good, or a +5 disruptor with additional stuff on it. I don't think I would see any melees complaining about an ehancement that turned their +1 vorpal LS into a +5 vorpal LS.

You are forgetting that we already get +3 bonus, and at 15 it'll only be +4, I think you would hear melees complaining if they had to spend a certain number of APs to make their +3 Vorpal into a +4.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Hopefully the bonuses will just come automatically with levelling and won't require spending 6 ranks worth of action points.

[GrayOldDruid]

This is from the d20 SRD:

Class Features

All of the following are Class Features of the arcane archer prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency

An arcane archer is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields.

So we miss out on this because of the enhancement system vs. a true class. I can live with that.

But, if you are a ranger, you got this already.

Enhance Arrow (Su)

At 1st level, every nonmagical arrow an arcane archer nocks and lets fly becomes magical, gaining a +1 enhancement bonus. Unlike magic weapons created by normal means, the archer need not spend experience points or gold pieces to accomplish this task. However, an archer’s magic arrows only function for her. For every two levels the character advances past 1st level in the prestige class, the magic arrows she creates gain +1 greater potency (+1 at 1st level, +2 at 3rd level, +3 at 5th level, +4 at 7th level, and +5 at 9th level).

We get this and that's very cool. But we miss out on all the rest of this stuff and that's where I have a problem.

Imbue Arrow (Sp)

At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted.

Although this would be cool, I can live without this one.

That would be a good, awesome 2nd rank addition. Although for the Enhancement, I think 1d6 elemental damage would be better, not an aoe spell. Especially since this is a Ranger enhancement instead of (from the SRD)

ARCANE ARCHER
Hit Die: d8.
Requirements
To qualify to become an arcane archer, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Race: Elf or half-elf.
Base Attack Bonus: +6.
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow).
Spells: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells.

So, even a Human Ranger can take the enhancements and casting arcane spells is not required. Just Mental Toughness feat. So, this is a big bonus to Rangers, given that we don't have to be Elves nor Arcane casters to take it. So, casting "Fireball" on the arrow and firing it would be ... er...
And, doing that in DDO would be a bit difficult.... or really uber-powered... I mean the Range on arrows now would totally eclipse the range of a fireball... Just knowing the area the mob is in would give you the ability to center a fireball on them... not even within sight... wow....
anyway....

Seeker Arrow (Sp)

At 4th level, an arcane archer can launch an arrow once per day at a target known to her within range, and the arrow travels to the target, even around corners. Only an unavoidable obstacle or the limit of the arrow’s range prevents the arrow’s flight. This ability negates cover and concealment modifiers, but otherwise the attack is rolled normally. Using this ability is a standard action (and shooting the arrow is part of the action).

Again, a cool thing but not really necessary.

Don't think this would work too well in DDO.... sadly. But, putting the +2d6 AOE damage on the arrow at lvl 3 would be good.

Phase Arrow (Sp)

At 6th level, an arcane archer can launch an arrow once per day at a target known to her within range, and the arrow travels to the target in a straight path, passing through any nonmagical barrier or wall in its way. (Any magical barrier stops the arrow.) This ability negates cover, concealment, and even armor modifiers, but otherwise the attack is rolled normally.

Using this ability is a standard action (and shooting the arrow is part of the action).

This could be put in.

Level 2 of the enhancement? That locks out the True Shot and has a 30 second cooldown timer?

Hail of Arrows (Sp)

In lieu of her regular attacks, once per day an arcane archer of 8th level or higher can fire an arrow at each and every target within range, to a maximum of one target for every arcane archer level she has earned. Each attack uses the archer’s primary attack bonus, and each enemy may only be targeted by a single arrow.

This could be put in.

Level 5 of the enhancement??

Arrow of Death (Sp)

At 10th level, an arcane archer can create an arrow of death that forces the target, if damaged by the arrow’s attack, to make a DC 20 Fortitude save or be slain immediately. It takes one day to make an arrow of death, and the arrow only functions for the arcane archer who created it. The arrow of death lasts no longer than one year, and the archer can only have one such arrow in existence at a time.

This should absolutely be put in.

... yes... but where?? Level 4 ? or make the Hail level 4 and the death level 5 ?

They should just rename this enhancement line to something other than arcane archer if they are going to give us such a limited subset of the abilities of that class.

Don't get me wrong, I love that they worked on this and it will be in the game. Just call it something else or keep working on it and let us know that you are going to enhance the enhancements in a future mod.

Hopefully the bonuses will just come automatically with levelling and won't require spending 6 ranks worth of action points.

Squeezing this into an enhancement instead of a Prestige class had to be some hard work... Still, I don't think we're going to get the auto bonuses. ... I may have to agree that calling it something else, since the Arcane Archer is basically a prestige class for elven arcane casters and not anything to do with Rangers - on top of not getting the prestige abilities.
But what?

Arcane Ranger? Way of the Arcane Arrow? Mystic Ranger?

[MysticTheurge]

This is from the d20 SRD

When you take a D&D prestige class you give up the abilities of your base class in exchange for the abilities of your prestige class.

When you take a DDO prestige enhancement you give up none of the abilities of your base class and simply add on the abilities of your prestige enhancement.

As such, you cannot provide all the benefits of a prestige class in a prestige enhancement.

[Yaga_Nub]

When you take a D&D prestige class you give up the abilities of your base class in exchange for the abilities of your prestige class.

When you take a DDO prestige enhancement you give up none of the abilities of your base class and simply add on the abilities of your prestige enhancement.

As such, you cannot provide all the benefits of a prestige class in a prestige enhancement.

No sh*t MT.

What I was saying is that they should either have provided MORE of the prestige class abilities, like they did with the bard, or just call it something else and be done with it.

To add a little to this post - Even one more of the listed abilities would be something. But the last two or three that I listed could have been added from the start. But to only give true shot and the + to the arrows isn't enough for it to be called the arcane archer.

[GrayOldDruid]

When you take a D&D prestige class you give up the abilities of your base class in exchange for the abilities of your prestige class.

When you take a DDO prestige enhancement you give up none of the abilities of your base class and simply add on the abilities of your prestige enhancement.

As such, you cannot provide all the benefits of a prestige class in a prestige enhancement.

I've played D&D for a long time and I have never heard or nor can I find any reference to loosing your base class ability when taking a prestige class.
That would, in fact, be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Prestige Classes Add to and Enhance base class abilities, not replace them. Some Prestige classes require you to be multiclassed but still don't make you loose any abilities. That would take a level 10 character and drop them down to level 1 character with good BAB and Hit Points.

Where have you read that?

.... unless of course you mean you give up any base class abilities that you WOULD have gotten IF you continued in that class instead of taking the Prestige Class... I would say that would be "Missing out on" not "giving up" since you never actually HAD those to begin with. Or "Give up the higher level abilities of the base class in favor of the Prestige class abilities" If that is what you meant, then I must add a Duh-Hu!

and I feel the need to add the "Arcane Archer" is an Elven Arcane Caster prestige class, not a Ranger prestige class at all. The Enhancement is So different from the Prestige Class, that using the name gives PnP players a LOT of expectations that it seems will not be implemented.... so... "Way of the Arcane Arrow" ?

[MysticTheurge]

I've played D&D for a long time and I have never heard or nor can I find any reference to loosing your base class ability when taking a prestige class.
That would, in fact, be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

You don't give up the abilities you already have, you give up the abilities you would've gotten but now don't because you're not taking more levels in your base class.

[GrayOldDruid]

You don't give up the abilities you already have, you give up the abilities you would've gotten but now don't because you're not taking more levels in your base class.

Yeah, though of that after I posted, fixed the above post... connotation is sometimes problematic in text-only environments.

[MysticTheurge]

Yeah, though of that after I posted, fixed the above post... connotation is sometimes problematic in text-only environments.

Yeah, it was an understandable mistake.

(I was like "Doh! I should've been clearer." )