DDO needs better balance than D&D

[gpk]

The increasing melee bonuses has caused turbine to increase enemy HP (by factors) making casters pointless until mid game where they suddenly become super powerful..... thanks to a few broken mechanics.

I can remember playing D&D and with a 5th level wizard casting fireball and wiping stuff out.... here yeah you would be picking yourself up off the floor with all the agro and the little damage you would do (until end game)
It just continues to get worse and worse until finally something will be done about it.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but I would argue that some of the problems you are describing were only really relevant in mod 1 and 2 (after Web got "fixed". Many of those problems were addresses before or by mod3. Thats a long time ago and yes they should have been addressed sooner.
Better spells such as blurs,displace better enhancements, more common spell boosting items etc. Playing a a Wiz/Sorc now is not the same as it once was. But again how much time do you spend being a level 5 wizard in DDO? How much time do you spend at end game? And if you're concerned about those lower levels how come you don't bring upthe fact the the mod5 metamagics hurt lower level casters?

So just because there were things that needed to be fixed back in mod 1-2, casters being boosted and paladins being nerfed some, does that mean the pendulum has to swing the other way when it's no longer needed or relevant? Did paladins need to be nerfed in mod4, mod5 and with enhancement costs after mod3? Did casters need to be doubled in power in mod5? They deserve it because back in Mod 1-2 they needed tweaking?
That kind of logic and reasoning is hurtful to DDO short and long term.
So we end up with much bigger imbalances than before (mod 5 metamagics) wich become exponentially more hurtful because it's later in the game and development updated are being spaced further apart with fewer changes, fixes and tweaks in between.

I'm just sad it's taken this long for people to rally behind the Balance "cause". But such is the nature of the game forums, people with legitimitae concerns and grievances are quickly berated and bombarded by some others.

[smatt]

Until later on when the next issue creeps up because the base problem has yet to be taken care of....

OK, so who's going to toss out the HUGE amount of dough and time it would take to compeltely revamp the whoile game from the beggining.. Not realistic really.. Sure it would be nice... But....

I like the leave quest, quest done thing.... Taht and the fix of the dupping bug... Those 2 things would go a very long way to "patching" the problem. Make people "think" more... But then we get into the playability issue, sure the power gamers runth0rough stuff easily, but the non-power gamers, the casual players would have a problem with the closed quest set-up. Still hard to find that balance to please MOST people....

[Mercules]

ONE AT A TME AND VERY SLOWLY In the meanitme the other 20 nastys are beating on you....

And then Mr/Mrs uber cleric is crying.. scrolls only...... LOLOLOL

Well, you could maybe not run forward into a group of 20 mobs. Just a suggestion. If you are capped, and it is a time thing, and you can hop out and back in easily for SPs, then yes people are going to push the "easy" button and play a nuking Sorcerer.

If you are going through a normal quest, with normal characters looking for adventure and XP and maybe a lucky find on treasure then it is different. You don't need any particular class to get through anything, but having melee about is really helpful for the whole group when the SPs are low.

I can't believe it but this spring there was an outcry about how other than Firewall and Haste there was no reason to bring an arcane. There was an outcry by arcane casters stating they were tired of playing a hastebot, yes that term was used, who was asked to drop a cloudkill or firewall from time to time and that they would like to start using some of their other spells. So they shortened the duration on spells and people screamed bloody murder on how no one would be playing anything but melee, clerics, and the occasional buffbot arcane. Then they changed the meta-magic system and now people are screaming that no one will play anything but a caster now.

While I agree that Firewall(slated to be fixed by AI changes) is too powerful and endless SPs ruin the game, the endless SPs ruin the game for everyone. Melee just gets a Cleric to spam heal and recall for SPs. Casters just nuke and recall. Clerics, nuke, heal, and recall. This sucks any strategy there was out of the game, and most people didn't know much more strategy than "Charge them and kill the casters first." or "Pull them into the firewall where they will stupidly stay."

Stop recalling out and suddenly casters don't have too many SPs. Stop doing capped loot runs and suddenly people will play everything under the sun. Why are we all breaking the game and then asking Turbine to fix it? Stop breaking the game.

[Cowdenicus]

Sure Mnemonics are a problem.. well when they can be had so cheaply on the AH, you know that duping thing again

Again, I don't see a major revamp of the combat sytem in the cards. I see tweaks, and in the future adjustments and additions. BUT, your latest comments show that you do agree there's a problem with the over-powering of the nukers

Let's face it, this type of MMO isn't an easy thing to design and develope (expensive as well). Mistakes will be made, some can be fixed, some have to be smoothed over with adjustments in other areas. The added problem, si that DDO is based at least in part on D&D, it doesn't neccesarly have the freedom that (gasp) WoW or other **** games do. It creates a whole new dynamic to deal with, as well as picky ass D&D folks

no there is a problem with over powered Player Characters in general........

Not just with casters, please do not presume to speak for me.

The problem started with the melee combat system, creating the need to over power mobs which made casters (spells) and rogue (sneak attack) and ranger (favored enemy damage) very much less effective.

The fixes to some of these issues have created what we have today, but this cannot be solved without fixing the underlieing problem, the base combat system.

[EinarMal]

Base problems:

1. Enhancement system-This was tacked on and goes along way in creating all the inflation that we see in the game.
2. Increasing attack bonus and the way BAB is handled in the game
3. Stupid mob AI e.g. firewall problems allowing easy destruction of mobs who stand in it blindly
4. Allowing quest re-entry
5. Mass availability of consumables like mana pots, heal scrolls etc....

Miss anything?

Solutions?
1. Well the really unpopular one would be to scale these back to less overpowered options that do not overpower the feats and skills in the game (the best approach in my opinion). The problem now is that enhancements give more power than feats in many cases. Would require massive overhaul (again) of the system... The other option would be to just try and add more enhancements and maybe scale back a few others to better balance the races and classes. To me enhancements should just add some flavor to the character not be so overpowering. I think the Prc thing could still be made to work, make them expensive in the new scaled back system...

2. BAB should be about speed, remove scaling attack bonus and have BAB effect swing speed rather than increasing the bonus. Just use Base BAB to determine attack scaling with a flat bonus and an increase in speed at each BAB +5

3. They are working on this one I think, need to get better mob logic so they don't stand in these spells and attack a little smarter.

4. Easy...just fail a quest on recall (already in the game for some quests like lighthouse in harbor)

5. Remove consumable vendors from the game. For classes that need spells like wizards let the class trainers teach them spell for a small fee. They can still drop but would be much more valuable/rare. I would remove spell point pots from the game as there is no equivalent in PnP to drinking a potion to allow you to cast an extra spell a day!

[Cowdenicus]

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but I would argue that some of the problems you are describing were only really relevant in mod 1 and 2 (after Web got "fixed". Many of those problems were addresses before or by mod3. Thats a long time ago and yes they should have been addressed sooner.
Better spells such as blurs,displace better enhancements, more common spell boosting items etc. Playing a a Wiz/Sorc now is not the same as it once was. But again how much time do you spend being a level 5 wizard in DDO? How much time do you spend at end game? And if you're concerned about those lower levels how come you don't bring upthe fact the the mod5 metamagics hurt lower level casters?

So just because there were things that needed to be fixed back in mod 1-2, casters being boosted and paladins being nerfed some, does that mean the pendulum has to swing the other way when it's no longer needed or relevant? Did paladins need to be nerfed in mod4, mod5 and with enhancement costs after mod3? Did casters need to be doubled in power in mod5? They deserve it because back in Mod 1-2 they needed tweaking?
That kind of logic and reasoning is hurtful to DDO short and long term.
So we end up with much bigger imbalances than before (mod 5 metamagics) wich become exponentially more hurtful because it's later in the game and development updated are being spaced further apart with fewer changes, fixes and tweaks in between.

I'm just sad it's taken this long for people to rally behind the Balance "cause". But such is the nature of the game forums, people with legitimitae concerns and grievances are quickly berated and bombarded by some others.

I have called for boosts to pallies and rogues for so long it is mindnumbing.

[gpk]

I have called for boosts to pallies and rogues for so long it is mindnumbing.

Kudos, do you care to comment on the rest of my post?

[Cowdenicus]

Base problems:

1. Enhancement system-This was tacked on and goes along way in creating all the inflation that we see in the game.
2. Increasing attack bonus and the way BAB is handled in the game
3. Stupid mob AI e.g. firewall problems allowing easy destruction of mobs who stand in it blindly
4. Allowing quest re-entry
5. Mass availability of consumables like mana pots, heal scrolls etc....

Miss anything?

Solutions?
1. Well the really unpopular one would be to scale these back to less overpowered options that do not overpower the feats and skills in the game (the best approach in my opinion). The problem now is that enhancements give more power than feats in many cases. Would require massive overhaul (again) of the system... The other option would be to just try and add more enhancements and maybe scale back a few others to better balance the races and classes. To me enhancements should just add some flavor to the character not be so overpowering. I think the Prc thing could still be made to work, make them expensive in the new scaled back system...

2. BAB should be about speed, remove scaling attack bonus and have BAB effect swing speed rather than increasing the bonus. Just use Base BAB to determine attack scaling with a flat bonus and an increase in speed at each BAB +5

3. They are working on this one I think, need to get better mob logic so they don't stand in these spells and attack a little smarter.

4. Easy...just fail a quest on recall (already in the game for some quests like lighthouse in harbor)

5. Remove consumable vendors from the game. For classes that need spells like wizards let the class trainers teach them spell for a small fee. They can still drop but would be much more valuable/rare. I would remove spell point pots from the game as there is no equivalent in PnP to drinking a potion to allow you to cast an extra spell a day!

I could get behind everything you have suggested here save mnemonics.......

Also all the loot (especially weapons) would need to be toned down.

And weapons would need to be destroyed much more often/faster.

[Cowdenicus]

Kudos, do you care to comment on the rest of my post?

Can I do that without it turning into a flamefest or you getting offended?

[gpk]

Can I do that without it turning into a flamefest or you getting offended?

Has anyone gotten offended yet? Id like to hear your counter-arguments to what I posted.

[MysticTheurge]

Has anyone gotten offended yet?

I'm offended.

But then I'm offended any time someone can't seem to see past the end of their own nose to look at game balance from a broader perspective and then goes all ape**** about people nerfing their characters.

[smatt]

no there is a problem with over powered Player Characters in general........

Yes but with casters at this point's exponential....

Not just with casters, please do not presume to speak for me.

Ummmm, I wasn't you're clearly far superior and you opinion means far more than all others

The problem started with the melee combat system, creating the need to over power mobs which made casters (spells) and rogue (sneak attack) and ranger (favored enemy damage) very much less effective.

The fixes to some of these issues have created what we have today, but this cannot be solved without fixing the underlieing problem, the base combat system.

Well , given the fact it ain't happening Chuck, not sure whrer to go from there. This game won't be completely rebuilt, unless you would kindly donate a couple Mil or so

[EinarMal]

I could get behind everything you have suggested here save mnemonics.......

Also all the loot (especially weapons) would need to be toned down.

And weapons would need to be destroyed much more often/faster.

I am fine with keeping them if they somehow tone down the quantities of mana pots you see. There seem to be way too many around and it is too easy to get stacks of them. People talk about duping them as being the reason they are so common and if that is the case that should definitely be fixed.

Weapon power would probably also have to be addressed, as well as magi items and really the overall ML levels of things. Caster equipment is about as overpowered as everything else in my opinion. A level 6 sceptor that gives you 6% spell crits etc...

Not sure about the weapon thing, the one thing that bothers me about this is the ridiculous number of oozes/slimes/rust monsters that are in this game especially at lower levels. They would have to tone that down for me to get behind this as that is not fair given how quickly they can eat up equipment and how stupidly common they are.

[Cowdenicus]

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but I would argue that some of the problems you are describing were only really relevant in mod 1 and 2 (after Web got "fixed". Many of those problems were addresses before or by mod3. Thats a long time ago and yes they should have been addressed sooner.
Better spells such as blurs,displace better enhancements, more common spell boosting items etc. Playing a a Wiz/Sorc now is not the same as it once was. But again how much time do you spend being a level 5 wizard in DDO? How much time do you spend at end game? And if you're concerned about those lower levels how come you don't bring upthe fact the the mod5 metamagics hurt lower level casters?

So just because there were things that needed to be fixed back in mod 1-2, casters being boosted and paladins being nerfed some, does that mean the pendulum has to swing the other way when it's no longer needed or relevant? Did paladins need to be nerfed in mod4, mod5 and with enhancement costs after mod3? Did casters need to be doubled in power in mod5? They deserve it because back in Mod 1-2 they needed tweaking?
That kind of logic and reasoning is hurtful to DDO short and long term.
So we end up with much bigger imbalances than before (mod 5 metamagics) wich become exponentially more hurtful because it's later in the game and development updated are being spaced further apart with fewer changes, fixes and tweaks in between.

I'm just sad it's taken this long for people to rally behind the Balance "cause". But such is the nature of the game forums, people with legitimitae concerns and grievances are quickly berated and bombarded by some others.

The issues with the combat system are not only relevant in Mod 1 and Mod 2. Infact the issues dealing with the combat system in Mod 1 and Mod 2 not being addressed is what is causing all of the issues today.

This phenomenon is known as: Power Creep.

Again you are listing spells that enhance game play but they are all spells to buff melee. That does nothing to enhance the game play of a caster. That makes them a buff bot. (NOT FUN)

The new Metamagics do hurt lower casters but in the end make higher casters more powerful (which was needed especially with the NEW AI changes I suspect are in the pipeline although Turbine is being quiet about them for now.)

Casters needed the boost because of power creep and how much stronger enemies are in DDO then in Pen and Paper (and before somebody says this is not Pen and Paper guess what the spells are direct translations from pen and paper).

A 30 point fireball is effective at level 5 in pen and paper, in DDO it is a joke at level 5. heck it is a joke in waterworks on hard (unless it is being cast at you).

Until the root issues are solved the only solutions are wide spread nerfs....... or more power creep. (And to answer your question did casters need to be doubled in power in Mod 5, YES, they are now finally on a level playing field with melee types who have been more than doubled in power sincer LEVEL 1, (you know when you get that extra attack.))

[Cowdenicus]

I'm offended.

But then I'm offended any time someone can't seem to see past the end of their own nose to look at game balance from a broader perspective and then goes all ape**** about people nerfing their characters.

I see you MT......

[smatt]

Has anyone gotten offended yet? Id like to hear your counter-arguments to what I posted.

Not I, sure I answer in a smart ass way. But it's jsut that being a smart ass. I only get offened when people start palying the oh you suck because of this go rebuild or this or that. That is offensive... And I will retort with more smart assed comments. Been doing the BB for a very long time, admined on a very large rock band board for a rather few years. Know every little snipe, stab, and backdoor rib trick in the book...... And I've seen a rather few here and try largely to leave that stuff alone Most of waaht I say is a joke anyways. It's really not a seriopsu issue to be honest, so why take it so seriously, jsut a game..... Have fun here jsut as you try to do in game

Keeping the discussion real and on point is the hardest thing to do. This isn't an easy problem to solve,and although it may be a rather deeply based problem as Cowdenicus has stated. I doubt they will ever go that deeply to solve it.....

At the very least elite level quests should be locked in quests.. No recall, No re-entry..... Solve the over abundance of mana pots and there it is..... problem solved

[Cowdenicus]

Yes but with casters at this point's exponential....

Which just about evens casters up with the mobs finally and it only took 2 years.

[Invalid_86]

Nerfs aren't a bad thing. You can't fix problems by just making everything else more and more powerful.

[Cowdenicus]

Not sure about the weapon thing, the one thing that bothers me about this is the ridiculous number of oozes/slimes/rust monsters that are in this game especially at lower levels. They would have to tone that down for me to get behind this as that is not fair given how quickly they can eat up equipment and how stupidly common they are.

An entire thread could be dedicated to this one part of this discussion, meaning Turbines choices of enemies, not just oozes and such.

[Cowdenicus]

Nerfs aren't a bad thing. You can't fix problems by just making everything else more and more powerful.

Trageted nerfing is not a bad thing when one issue (when seperated from everything else) is overpowered.....

MOB HP and (P.C.) melee attacks (i.e progression) should have been nerfed long ago, and then alot of other things could be nerfed as well.