DDO needs better balance than D&D

[Mercules]

Melees are limited by the fact that without buffs, and without massive healing they just aren't going to get thorugh things in a reasonable amount of time, casters have no such limitation.

Um... reasonable amount of time? Why is that part of the argument?

[Cowdenicus]

It takes as long as you take to cap. I have no "capped" characters because once I approach cap, I stop playing them. The whole dynamic of the game changes once you are capped and it becomes no fun. We shouldn't ruin the rest of the game because play and tactics change when you hit the ceiling. That ceiling will move someday.

Lets not get hasty with the whole, "We need to drop their SPs." Limit access to unending SPs, yes, drop, no.

What is really scary is I heard this same argument months ago only the terms caster and melee were switched around. Then it was 6 melee can do any quest, why bring casters? We have clickies and potions for Haste. Much of the time it was 5 melee and a Cleric that were running the quests. Now it is 5 arcanes and a Cleric?

Mercules has hit the complaint on the head right there, it isnt the fact that fighters are weaker or casters are stronger....

The problem is that you no longer need 3 or 4 fighters in every group to be effective,



(wait for it) Just like in D&D.

[Cowdenicus]

Um... reasonable amount of time? Why is that part of the argument?

loot/hour ratios, it is a melee thing.

[smatt]

I disrupt CR 17 and higher undead all the time. I on the other hand do not use smiters, too many construct bane weapons for that stuff.

If you think melee classes are irrelevant, may I advise the builds section of the forums???? There are many builds to be had there that make sure melee are anything but irrelevant.

Um, I build just fine thank you, sure we can get into the chest puffing **** and critic you're super uberness..... This isn't aobu thta though really..... Unlimited mana at a fingers touch, and the ability to dish out 300 points of damage to MULTIPLE targets,a nd need or relevance for ANY OTHER class except for castes is the discussion. And yes, I disrupt them as well.. AFTER taking damage myself, sometimes you get them early soemtimes not.. And I have every darend greater bane weapon in the game as well I'm nto trying to get into a ****ing match here.. Nor am I trying to get into the I'm better at this or that BS match. I don't really care how special any one super uber is Or hwo they impress themselves so much. I care about the AVERAGE everyday player, the peopel who can play a lot, or in general take to playing MMOs very well, are always goign to be OK. But I would argue that's not the average player at all.

[gpk]

Greater potency item REQUIRED, Evocation/illusion/necromancy item, Power or Wizardry or Magi item to get those spell points.... spell penetration item... but, dang, can only hold two....

Greater Potency: many in Shop, more in Auction House, all cheap
Spell Penetration Item: tons in shop, tons in the auction house, named Robe of Magi surprising amoutns in the Auction House, all cheap

Magi Items? Gasp theyre so common and cheap I won't even common further.

Evocation/illusion/necromancy item are all Auction hosue and Junk Fodder.
Then there's the very easy Reaver Raid with the very common Reaver Napkin raid loot, compare that to a chattering ring, a Sword of Shadow, dragon/titan belt, Seal of the Earth..

Can only hold 2? Do you hold Magi items after you've spent the SP? Ever looked at the auction house cheap Pop6-8 are for sale?

Then there's Skiver, there are a surprising amount of ppl holding one since Mod5...

[gpk]

If your melee character is taking a ton of damage, there is somethign wrong with your build, or your group.

/edit
(am I the only cleric that runs around with a caster and a bard in group anymore or what????)

LOL wow!

[Cowdenicus]

Um, I build just fine thank you, sure we can get into the chest puffing **** and critic you're super uberness..... This isn't aobu thta though really..... Unlimited mana at a fingers touch, and the ability to dish out 300 points of damage to MULTIPLE targets,a nd need or relevance for ANY OTHER class except for castes is the discussion. And yes, I disrupt them as well.. AFTER taking damage myself, sometimes you get them early soemtimes not.. And I have every darend greater bane weapon in the game as well I'm nto trying to get into a ****ing match here.. Nor am I trying to get into the I'm better at this or that BS match. I don't really care how special any one super uber is Or hwo they impress themselves so much. I care about the AVERAGE everyday player, the peopel who can play a lot, or in general take to playing MMOs very well, are always goign to be OK. But I would argue that's not the average player at all.

I am but a humble lowly cleric (it is even in my clerics bios so it must be true) serving Stormreach........

[Cowdenicus]

LOL wow!

The truth can be so burdensome at times, I understand. That is why there are those of us that are of the Silver Flame, to show the peasant rabble the way out of the darkness and into the light.

[Serpent]

The problem is that you no longer need 3 or 4 fighters in every group to be effective,



(wait for it) Just like in D&D.

Ah yes but in PnP when you hit level 12-14 you don't suddenly switch to a caster. The group stays together. This is not PnP stop comparing.

Also this style of MMO is new and as a player who has played the others I hope it will improve on existing designs. Casters are powerful, and they for some silly reason made them more powerful, that was unnecessary.

[smatt]

It takes as long as you take to cap. I have no "capped" characters because once I approach cap, I stop playing them. The whole dynamic of the game changes once you are capped and it becomes no fun. We shouldn't ruin the rest of the game because play and tactics change when you hit the ceiling. That ceiling will move someday.

Lets not get hasty with the whole, "We need to drop their SPs." Limit access to unending SPs, yes, drop, no.

What is really scary is I heard this same argument months ago only the terms caster and melee were switched around. Then it was 6 melee can do any quest, why bring casters? We have clickies and potions for Haste. Much of the time it was 5 melee and a Cleric that were running the quests. Now it is 5 arcanes and a Cleric?

Hmm, well you're right there, about the dynamic changing.... As for the "why bring a caster thing.." Well not sure who you were playing with. Although, I'm a noob and have only playing the game for a little over a year. I don't ever recall not wanting a caster inmy party, ion fact 2 is better then one. The only untouchables seem to have been bards and rogues. BUT I have always made room for both in any group I was forming.

As I've said, I've thought about this, and I haven't been able to, up to this point come up with a way to solve the problem, so don't come off with this "You just hate casters and want to nerf us" stuff. Again, that's why I hate that "nerf" word. I'm not advoctating nerfing of anything... I'm advocating a more balanced game that at high levels keeps ALL classes relavant. That's all.....

Identifying that there is a problem is the easy part, solving it is where it gets dicey

[Cowdenicus]

Hmm, well you're right there,l about the dynamic changing.... As for the why bring a caster thing.. Well not sure who you were playing with.. Although I'm a noob and have only playing the game for a little over a year. I don't ever recall not wanting a caster inmy party, ion fact 2 is better then one. The only untouchables seem to have been bards and rogues. BUT I have always made room for both in any group I was forming.

As I've said, I've thought about this, and I haven't been able to, up to this point come up with a way to solve the problem, so don't come off with this "You just hate casters and want to nerf us" stuff. Again, that's why I hate that "nerf" word. I'm not advoctating nerfing of anything... I'm advocating a more balanced game that at high levels keeps ALL classes relavant. That's all.....

Identifying that there is a problem is the easy part, solving it is where it gets dicey

Yet you have not identified the problem yet........all I have seen are symptoms.

[smatt]

If your melee character is taking a ton of damage, there is somethign wrong with your build, or your group.

/edit
(am I the only cleric that runs around with a caster and a bard in group anymore or what????)

Ha ha, well somebody has to be able to rez the dead zerging clerics and casters I defy any tank build 60 uber ac or not to step out and go toe to toe with the likes of cr 17 ogres or trolls and not take damage. Again, you want to get into a build arguement.... More chest puffing ... LOLOLOLOLOL

[smatt]

Yet you have not identified the problem yet........all I have seen are symptoms.

Problem = Unlimtied casting ability (IE ability of nukers to nuke at will) Irrelevance of all classes but casters at high levels....

[Serpent]

Yet you have not identified the problem yet........all I have seen are symptoms.

Then what are the problems? You are unconvinced by others arguments. So what would you do?

[gpk]

The truth can be so burdensome at times, I understand. That is why there are those of us that are of the Silver Flame, to show the peasant rabble the way out of the darkness and into the light.

It's come down to this has it? LMAO thanks for showing us all the truth and the way to light.

[smatt]

Then what are the problems? You are unconvinced by others arguments. So what would you do?

Ahhh the answer appears to be.. Let the nukes as well as the nuker clerics rule everything,and relegate all others to door openers.

[Cowdenicus]

Problem = Unlimtied casting ability (IE ability of nukers to nuke at will) Irrelevance of all classes but casters at high levels....

Like the unilimited ability for fighters to melee???

[smatt]

Like the unilimited ability for fighters to melee???

ONE AT A TME AND VERY SLOWLY In the meanitme the other 20 nastys are beating on you....

And then Mr/Mrs uber cleric is crying.. scrolls only...... LOLOLOL

[Cowdenicus]

Then what are the problems? You are unconvinced by others arguments. So what would you do?

1. I would lower to hit bonuses to +1-+3, instead of +0,+0, +5, +10 (and soon) +15.

This would make melee more attractive for non melee classes and bring AC back into relevance for fighters.

2. I would eliminate the ability to reenter quests entirely once you recall out without the quest resetting.

I would also increase spell caster spell points though (at least base sp)

3. I would add in many more feats and enhancements (especially enhancements) for all classes.

4. I would get rid of the blanket immunities to sneak attack damage that undead and constructs have.

5. I would take out every gear repair vendor in the game and let that be a function of magic again. (also would help with game economy)

6. I would make Dex fighting much more attarctive (how is up for debate)

I could list things all day but I do not think people care.

[Cowdenicus]

ONE AT A TME AND VERY SLOWLY In the meanitme the other 20 nastys are beating on you....

And then Mr/Mrs uber cleric is crying.. scrolls only...... LOLOLOL

I havent seen melee have this very slowly problem...... unless you are talking red and purple named mobs. (unless you think 2-3 rounds is very slowly)