DDO needs better balance than D&D

[Torosar]

if somebody here actually posted reasonable discussion points on how to balance this game without wide spread nerfs, I am all ears and willing to contribute, until then this thread needs to be locked because of the flamebait it is.

Well if you are going to be critical, technically any attempt at a balance is going to be a nerf one way or another. If melee was made more powerful that would be a nerf to casters. If casters were made weaker somehow through whatever means (I.e Capped Metamagic & various other ideas in this thread), that's a nerf. If mobs are adjusted with whatever means (i.e SR, immunities), thats going to be a nerf to casters. These examples can go on.. my point is, a balance by its very nature means that something/someone has to 'lose out' by something/someone else becoming better so that they become balanced. There are some good points and some reasonable ideas raised in my opinion, i know you don't agree, but i fail to see how any idea raised in this thread will be to your liking given the nature of a balance.

[Cowdenicus]

Well if you are going to be critical, technically any attempt at a balance is going to be a nerf one way or another. If melee was made more powerful that would be a nerf to casters. If casters were made weaker somehow through whatever means (I.e Capped Metamagic & various other ideas in this thread), that's a nerf. If mobs are adjusted with whatever means (i.e SR, immunities), thats going to be a nerf to casters. These examples can go on.. my point is, a balance by its very nature means that something/someone has to 'lose out' by something/someone else becoming better so that they become balanced. There are some good points and some reasonable ideas raised in my opinion, i know you don't agree, but i fail to see how any idea raised in this thread will be to your liking given the nature of a balance.

A revamp of the entire system, but that will never happen. Melee, casting, mobs, all of it and most importantly LOOT.

[gpk]

No, they don't... they can hit with melee from 30' away.

"What the heck just hit me? Nothing is even close!!"

You've got to be kidding me...

[Cowdenicus]

You've got to be kidding me...

No need to step into a beautiful rant with pesky things like facts and logic, let them continue please.

[Raithe]

1. Load Maximize, Empower and Extend.
2. Gather 10-20 mobs.
3. While running place 2 firewalls at your feet.
4. Jump around in circles avoiding mobs while displaced,hasted,jumped and possibly stoneskinned.
5. Watch mobs die.
6. Look at the melee classes trying to be useful.
7. type /laugh and move on to the next wave of mobs.

As for expensive,time consuming and difficult.. Thats only about 120 (60 per firewall) mana from a sorc who has 1900. It takes about 5-15 seconds to kill the mobs. You dont even get hit.. how is that difficult?

Fascinate takes 5-10 seconds to play. Killing mobs individually.. why do that when you can just firewall everything? Its faster and just as easy. After it the sorc can still throw about 30 more firewalls.

You can argue that killing is better, safer, even more efficient. Except in quests like Offering of Blood and Desert Caravan, which have really corny quest designs, I'll agree with you. That is assuming, however, that the actual purpose of running the quest is to enjoy the experience, and not to get to the end. You can fascinate on the run, and there is simply nothing faster than spamming web, hypnotism, charms, fascinations, solid fogs, and instakills/flesh2stone as you zerg your way through a DDO linear quest. It's even faster if you can cast haste and invisibility and sprint to the end without interference (Part 2 of Cult of the Six, before the doors anyone?)

The ultimate point is that this game isn't really about getting to the end and completing the last objective. That sounds like work.

[Raithe]

Unless you're one of those rare people who actually does play in a static group, you've got to deal with all kinds of other grouping dynamics that simply aren't present in D&D.

The fact that these grouping dynamics are present in DDO is simply a testament of the poor design of the game. It's not about having a static group, it's about people being able to get together and play a game without the hostility and insecurity of the outer society polluting it. Trust me, if this game had been designed with roleplaying and storytelling in mind (rather than zerging and loot mongering), we would be facing an entirely different subscriber base than the existing one. If you don't believe me, go read the LotRO forums and see if you don't get a slightly different impression of what's important to the majority in that MMO. Those roleplayers can be downright uncivilized to the uber leetz powergamers.

When a large fraction of your characters life span is going to spent at a given level, it becomes irrelevant that for a small fraction of your lifespan you were weaker than other classes.

Everyone can build a caster or cleric if they want. It's not like each player is limited to only one character like it is in a PnP game. I myself enjoy playing my generalist rogue-type main, just as much as my defensive big-game-hunter ranger, just as much as my offensive crowd-controlling caster, just as much as my do-everything generalist bard/rogue. I really don't see that many problems with class balance in the game. I think the real problems are with mechanics and designs that limit imaginative gameplay and a lack of diversity in gameplay elements, such as roleplaying.

[SableShadow]

Sending specific enemies against your party is the best way to help adjust for imbalances.

Best solution in the thread; loved the discussion on group dynamics also.

[SableShadow]

anti-roleplay class balance argument

I'm afraid you lost me here; I don't see 'anti-roleplay' and 'class balance' as being the same thing.

As I see it, you are aguing that the heart of the issues is the game's design: emphasis on l00t, and on quest completions (which result in l00t). If the emphasis shifted to something other than l00t, then issues of balance go away.

I concur, actually; however, I don't see a major redesign of DDOs core in the offing, and so have to lean toward MT's thoughts on the issue, as they deal with the situation I currently experience.

Fundamentally, class balance only becomes an issue if one is excluded rather than included in the game as played. No one cares if a caster can nuke an entire map...until players start tossing out terms like 'luggage classes' to refer to non-casters, and exclude them from quests.

[Amabel]

Bah, scale back the escalating melee attack bonus (more attacks should not mean more to hit) and make area of effect spells do area of effect damage and the problem is solved.

Mobs wouldn't need massive ac and hit points and the cheesy firewall/blade barrier approach would fall out of fashion, or at least some communication would be required.

The run to choke point and lay down cc with firewall and blade barrier, or cast fw or bb on your own party during a fight is the cheesiest part of DDO. Nerfing cloudkill has not fixed the problem. Real area of effect damage would. How do you combat griefing? Bad casters don't get groups. Give the player base a chance at some more "hardcore" play and let the kiddies go back to WOW.

/rant off

[Riminy]

The ultimate point is that this game isn't really about getting to the end and completing the last objective. That sounds like work.

The ultimate point to any game is completing the objective. Upon completion you are rewarded with experience, chests and a reward. Without ending a quest how would we advance in the game?

Techinically we are Roleplaying adventurers who like to win thus the enjoyable experience is to win the quest.

I also play a ranger and rogue. But if I run one of these characters into an Orchard quest, I am nerfing my team. Makes it hard to roleplay being an adventurer when I'm not helping except when its time to carry the loot. I'm not saying my rogue or ranger is useless but why bother when its easier to do with my wizard?

[Hvymetal]

No what the game needs to do is fix melee combat in the game (cumulative to hit bonuses and all) and add Cleric Domains and more spells to the game and also to remove repair people from the game to facilitate some more wear on weapons.

I would in fact argue that melee in DDO is consdierably overpowered from their pen and paper counterparts in DDO.

The problem is not that melee types in this game dont have enough DPS, the problem is they have entirely high to hits and damage.

Guess what, other than barbarians and arguably rangers the only need for DPS from a melee is to hold agro. Of ocurse every fighter out there wants to be the leetsauce uber killer guy...... I would take a fighter that knew how to hit stunning blow and intimidate over a fighter with great dps 10 out of 10 times.

Sure, and while we're at it lets also go back to spell slots per rest & make meta magics work like they do in P&P.....

[MysticTheurge]

The fact that these grouping dynamics are present in DDO is simply a testament of the poor design of the game.

It's not a testament to bad game design, it's a testament to human nature. Nothing you do could ever change it.

Everyone can build a caster or cleric if they want.

That's a "fake" solution too.

It's not that the system is unfair to certain people. No one's suggesting that (or at least, I'm not). It's not that the guy who plays paladins got the short end of the stick cause wizards are more uber.

In fact, what you're offering as a "solution" is actually another problem/reason the game needs to be more balance. Yes everyone can make 7-9 characters per server. But everyone shouldn't have to make an arcane caster or cleric to have the best character.

Characters of all types should be relatively balanced with each other. Partly due to the fact that every should be playing characters of every type. I mean who wants to make 9 casters?

[Cowdenicus]

Sure, and while we're at it lets also go back to spell slots per rest & make meta magics work like they do in P&P.....

Sure as long as we can rest every 6-8 encounters (which is what the pen and paper is designed for)

[gpk]

Sure as long as we can rest every 6-8 encounters (which is what the pen and paper is designed for)

Sure and let's not forget about the wandering monsters interrupting your rest etc etc.

[wizzy_catt]

Sure and let's not forget about the wandering monsters interrupting your rest etc etc.

make a barrier for shrine area so no mobs can interrupt rest?

[Cowdenicus]

Sure and let's not forget about the wandering monsters interrupting your rest etc etc.

And now we have uses for more spells like Alarm, Secure Shelter and I am sure many others I am missing.... too tired to go look.

[Pyromaniac]

I think its a little late for rebalancing, how many subscribers are going to quit when....

-Their melees lose all their insta-kill super gear
-Melee attack speeds come back to normal levels
-Feats like toughness go back to +3 hp only not +100 hp
-Casters can cast x spells per day only
-Everyone gives up their gear that is super powered, masterworks at lvl 1-2 anyone?

[smatt]

Alot of the "suggestions" here though would not create "balance" in DDO either. This entire thread is nothing but a thinly veiled rant to nerf casters and clerics, relegate the clerics to "Please heal my ub3r f1g4ter" and "hey caster/bard please buff my uber fighter."

Actually ,yes you're right it is Well not clerics, although if there was a true "fix" to the over-powerign of casters, it would indeed give the healers a whack as well. Now about all this cost of being a cleric.. Not sure who you run with Vanash But I know the people I run with, when we do even run with a cleric, gladly supply all the heal/raise dead scrolls a cleric could ever use. In fact I probably supply clerics with enough to run with many bad pugs after they get done running in our groups . Just because there's so many cheap bastards out there, doesn't mean we're all cheap bastards

I think this is really about the fact that all classes, except for Sorcs and Wizzys are really just glorified door men at level cap. All those using comparisions to PnP, well thsi isn't PnP, no tin any way shape or form, except by name, and idea base. It can't be and won't ever be. I use the the comparision of the limit on casters in PnP only, as a referance to how PnP attempts to use SOME balance to make it even worth while to have a melee in a group. At this point, at level cap it's not really all that worth while to ever have a melee in group, except in that rare quest where FW doesn't work or there's no convienant mana fountain/ other way to replenish mana quikly. Rogues, well nobody ever wants a rogue around, although the expected fix to traps, making them far more damaging to jsut runt hrough might give the rogue class a bit more love. Pali's well, not sure what they're for in DDO, basically a nerfed tank that can heal a bit I guess. Barbs, kill machines, but mana/scroll sinks on the healing end for the clerics. Bards are grat, although not many play them they can be a highly effective toon to play all around, still relevent..... But again we return to, why bother playing anythign else besides a caster? Why even have anything but a caster in your group? Except in the rare quest where you have to get that trap disabled, or unlock something or other (Oops, here comes that Wizzy rogue high bred) ther eis abosolutely no reason to have anyhting but a caster, nuker hot air balloon headed, real life size challenged who's compensating, blow hard of a caster in your group.

Now all that being said, the fixes that woudl be realistic are hard to nail down...... The onyl way I can see it would be quest design, but then you run into the problem of havign to put together a blancd group that could complete the quest. Taht in itself would create a boring sit around and wait game. There has to be a way to limit the as of now UNLIMITED casting ability of the nukers..... Yes, melees have unlimited swinging ability, againt USUALLY a single foe, whereas a nuker, well that shouldn't even have to be explained.

Yep, they need to, or SHOULD nerf casters mana pools in some way shape or form

[smatt]

No what the game needs to do is fix melee combat in the game (cumulative to hit bonuses and all) and add Cleric Domains and more spells to the game and also to remove repair people from the game to facilitate some more wear on weapons.

I would in fact argue that melee in DDO is consdierably overpowered from their pen and paper counterparts in DDO.

The problem is not that melee types in this game dont have enough DPS, the problem is they have entirely high to hits and damage.

Guess what, other than barbarians and arguably rangers the only need for DPS from a melee is to hold agro. Of ocurse every fighter out there wants to be the leetsauce uber killer guy...... I would take a fighter that knew how to hit stunning blow and intimidate over a fighter with great dps 10 out of 10 times.

Ha ha, just as castes have way to much DPS ptential with their AOE spells, let alone their insta kill spells. Every class is over-powered as compared their PnP counterparts. But with casters it's exponantial...... Kill counts, I could really careless about kill counts. At least the way I play a tank, is to keep agro until the casters can kill them for the most part. I have no problem with casters doing a good portion of the killing. The problem is that at cap, there's really no reason to have any other class in a group at this point. Easiest way to solve that problem... Limit the mana fountains in some way shape or form......

[Cowdenicus]

A cleric or caster should not have to depend on scrolls or mnemonics to get a quest done.

If you want to move it away from a D&D discussion and into a more general MMO type discussion we can do that..... but I do not think you would like the result as in most MMO's melee (with the exception of scouts) have actually horrible DPS, but they have alot of survivability and great defense. Catsers and scouts tend to have great dps in those games, so be careful what you wish for.