DDO needs better balance than D&D

[Serpent]

Well, actually it's not. When are people going to learn that MMORPGs are about roleplaying? The object of the game is not building the most powerful character, as if that wasn't a completely subjective analysis anyway. If we all based our opinions of character power on the ability to sneak rather than to kill, we would all find rogues, rangers, and bards to be grossly overpowered, wouldn't we?

When are people going to learn that a MMO is about fun. How one achieves that fun is up to them. Saying that it is about roleplaying is just ignoring the whole actuality of the game. The reason we base our opinions on damage output is becaue that is how you achieve almost every quest. Outside of mastermind which you still need damage to get too adn the other puzzles in the game, There is a boss that has to be defeated. If they require you to sneak around him and he then is foiled in his nefarious plan then great, then sneak would maybe over powered. (personally think that is a horrible example)

I've said it before I'll say it again. There is no trick to building anything uber. Back in the day it was simply a matter of rolling dice (or hitting "reroll" on the computer screen) until you came up with a character with stats above 14 all the way around. In DDO, it's simply a matter of picking a particular race and class, after unlocking Drow and 32-pt builds, then grinding away for loot. If you play these games long enough, however, you eventually learn that the most "powerful" (highest stats) characters are not usually the most fun. You start looking for the low stats you want as well as the high. The game of D&D (and therefore DDO) is as much about playing a character's weaknesses as it is playing their strengths.

Thats a fine plan on how to play a character but I think you are in a small minority of players who attempt to gimp themselves in order to find enjoyment. In fact I would wager to say that most people like playing powerful characters to emulate a godlike psychological fantasy. But I will not bust out with my too many years of psych classes. The older MMOs where exactly that older, this is a newer one and there fore is subject to the growing genre. I can't count the number of people I know who play just because the combat system is unique.

Every class needs something to be good at, which is why I've been so critical of the changes to trapsmithing DCs that has occurred. Rogues need to be good at several roguish actions, and the screwed up DCs actually make them less good at what they do, not more specialized. Other than that, "balance" can take a flying leap out the window. It has nothing to do with the reasons I play the game.

Yes every class does need something to be good at. That is why I have advocated the benefits for pure class builds. I understand that you are having fun and balance is not an issue to you but why post to say so. Are you against balance and what super inflated spells mobs and damage? Do you want over powered items and god like stats? I think you jsut said you don't.

[gpk]

Yer doggone right high level mages are overpowered .....as well they should be .....They are after all HIGH LEVEL charachters who could strike down mountains with a a single word.Wizards and sorcerors on Pen and Paper are exactly the same as in this game...problem solvers.Terribly feared and misunderstood by all who have never played one..as well they should be

Noone is arguing that they shouldn't be very powerful , or heck more powerful.
But what good is taking the already more powerful classes and doubling their power? Were they lacking before?

For the sake of argument let's say a Sorc/Wiz was 1.2 times as powerful as a Barbarian and 1.3 x another melee class in Mod4.
Mod 5 comes along and doubles that power, so now a Sorc/Wiz 2.4 times as powerful as a Barbarian and 2.6 times as powerful as other melee classes.
Is that good for gameplay ? Were there complaint in mod4 that Sorc/Wiz was underpowered?

[Serpent]

And rule zero says that an experianced DM does not make PnP more balanced.

Umm I DM every Friday night and thats not what the zero rule says. It's great that it does for you, but last I checked my DMG, it said (roughly) to always make changes carefully but if change is warranted, change things for the benefit of fun and to becareful if a change is to powerful as to ruin fun. (metamagic in mod 5)

DMG page 14 "Make sure that a change genuinely improves your campaign for everybody."

[Serpent]

Yer doggone right high level mages are overpowered .....as well they should be .....They are after all HIGH LEVEL charachters who could strike down mountains with a a single word.Wizards and sorcerors on Pen and Paper are exactly the same as in this game...problem solvers.Terribly feared and misunderstood by all who have never played one..as well they should be

No they shouldn't because this is not a R.A. Salvatore novel and generally those characters that do that are the ones we are hired to beat on as PCs. In DDO, with the real time combat system, that does not = good times for all. I have played a wizard. I gave him up cause it was boring. I have 70 spells in my spell book and I use maybe 10 and if i use any others it doesn't get the job done. And PnP is getting overhauled because of this drastic over powered nature of casters. Maybe this game should emulate that.

[Serpent]

I just wanted to say that if casters don't see a limitation of some sort it will come in the form of mobs. Next mod has that. Devils are IMMUNE to fire. That in it self will change the landscape. I see that is being very good for the game. But I already can imagine the ZOMG threads about devils having immunities.

[gpk]

I just wanted to say that if casters don't see a limitation of some sort it will come in the form of mobs. Next mod has that. Devils are IMMUNE to fire. That in it self will change the landscape. I see that is being very good for the game. But I already can imagine the ZOMG threads about devils having immunities.

It's ok, Maximized Polar Ray and Cone of Cold will make short work of devils

[GrayOldDruid]

well let's see, My casters have same or higher con and same or more HP than My many melee classes in DDO, none of my casters invests in Dex really (no reason to). I cast Blur, Displace (stoneskin later), 100% fortification, casting while running and jumping around = not getting hit. Dead Mobs for next to zero risk to caster.

Clearly we don't play the same game or you just play with really mediocre casters.


60%? That's the number you wanna go with? Throwing up a firewall is Melee support? LOL


Caster getting aggro = Hop back dsiplaced w jump and stoneskin avoid all mobs and re-cast spell. Got a firewall ? Hit a DP clicky and block with a tower shield till all mobs are dead.


Again idk which casters you play with, but My DDO casters have LOTS of HP and 100% fortification and stoneskin. My Melees can have twice the health and they would still be far behind; they get hit a helluva lot more than My casters with all the aggro in the world.



How many Level 14 Mod5 groups wouldn't be better off with 4/6 players being a Cleric, Wizard or Sorcerer? In my opinion A rogue is only needed on level 14 quests to get the optional box in Temple of Vol, and maybe a Barbarian is good to distract a Doomsphere for a while.

Honestly what online game do you play? It sure as hell doesn't seem we both play DDO.

(fixed some things up there)

I play the WHOLE game, not just the lvl 14 of the game. Seems like you are missing out on 13 levels of play, did you buy your character pre-capped from an online service?

If you think casters have the same con and HP as a Fighter or Barbarian, you're cracked, or you just play with extremely mediocre Melees. While I am only up tp 13 lvl on one character, casters still go down a bit more than tanks.

And I just saw a post where the caster build invested heavily in Dex (not that I agree with doing that, but they obviously thought it helped a lot).
So you're "No caster invests in dex" should really say, "I don't invest in dex on my casters" Actually, most of your post should be "I don't" and "I never" and "I cast" instead of ASSuming that everyone plays EXACTLY like you.

Throwing up a firewall IS melee support when the melees are screaming at the caster for it.

And NO, not ALL casters have 100% Fort (more melees have 100% fort than casters) and not ALL casters use stoneskin.

And you are right, we don't play the same game. I play DDO. You play DDO. And the great thing about playing DDO is that everyone can get all kinds of different experiences from it. I focus on the parts of DDO as a MMORPG that make me happy and enjoy the game. If what you are focused on now doesn't make you happy or enjoy the game... change your focus.

[Serpent]

It's ok, Maximized Polar Ray and Cone of Cold will make short work of devils

At least it costs more to cast, and is harder to hit maximum amount of mobs. (smiley deleted)

[Asirin]

No they shouldn't because this is not a R.A. Salvatore novel and generally those characters that do that are the ones we are hired to beat on as PCs. In DDO, with the real time combat system, that does not = good times for all. I have played a wizard. I gave him up cause it was boring. I have 70 spells in my spell book and I use maybe 10 and if i use any others it doesn't get the job done. And PnP is getting overhauled because of this drastic over powered nature of casters. Maybe this game should emulate that.

And to think when mod 4 came out people actually QUIT because casters were getting NERFED

[Serpent]

(
I play the WHOLE game, not just the lvl 14 of the game. Seems like you are missing out on 13 levels of play, did you buy your character from an online service?

I do too I have played form level 1 to 14 about 11 times. It was fun at times. A grind at others. Try playing this since launch and see if those same first 13 levels are as enchanting. Two years verse 4 months makes a huge difference and opens your eyes to a lot.

[Serpent]

And to think when mod 4 came out people actually QUIT because casters where getting NERFED

lol oh yes I remember, what where they thinking. If only we had crystal balls .

I asked a wizard if he wished he had more spell points the other day (he has 1920). he responded oh yes that way I could skip shrines and go faster. Makes ya think a little.

[gpk]

(fixed some things up there)

I play the WHOLE game, not just the lvl 14 of the game. Seems like you are missing out on 13 levels of play, did you buy your character from an online service?

If you think casters have the same con and HP as a Fighter or Barbarian, you're cracked, or you just play with extremely mediocre Melees. While I am only up tp 13 lvl on one character, casters still go down a bit more than tanks.

And I just saw a post where the caster build invested heavily in Dex (not that I agree with doing that, but they obviously thought it helped a lot).
So you're "No caster invests in dex" should really say, "I don't invest in dex on my casters" Actually, most of your post should be "I don't" and "I never" and "I cast" instead of ASSuming that everyone plays EXACTLY like you.

Throwing up a firewall IS melee support when the melees are screaming at the caster for it.

And NO, not ALL casters have 100% Fort (more melees have 100% fort than casters) and not ALL casters use stoneskin.

And you are right, we don't play the same game. I play DDO. You play DDO. And the great thing about playing DDO is that everyone can get all kinds of different experiences from it.

Really how much time do you spend playing the WHOLE game? How much of that time is NOT spent on end-game content and levels? Sorry to make you waste all that red ink, but it's not MY casters, its 95% of the casters out there.
Should the game be balanced for the 5% of players you list in your examples or the 95% of the players the rest of us play with?

However point well taken , 75% fortification, displacement, running jumping around while casting without stoneskin is more than enough. I wonder if mobs get the phantom attack bug when they swing at us...

[Serpent]

I wonder if mobs get the phantom attack bug when they swing at us...

Get your own thread

[Ringlord]

MT my point is that the imbalances the OP is referring to stem from the intentional differences created in DDO from pnp because it is an MMO and because computer AI is the only way for the game to control the mobs we fight. That is the root of all the problems of imbalance.

[Raithe]

When are people going to learn that a MMO is about fun. How one achieves that fun is up to them. Saying that it is about roleplaying is just ignoring the whole actuality of the game.

I'm saying that assuming the game is not about roleplaying is ignoring the whole actuality. The game was designed for roleplay. The rules are there to give roleplay a mathematical framework, and to wave in the face of an idiot playing a barbarian who "wants to cast a spell today."

The reason we base our opinions on damage output is becaue that is how you achieve almost every quest.

If you want to challenge the DDO standard for quest designing, I'm right there with you. You're not, though, and that makes you something other than my ally.

I understand that you are having fun...

I'm not. I have an opposing agenda, however, and your fix would make things worse for me.

...and balance is not an issue to you but why post to say so. Are you against balance and what super inflated spells mobs and damage? Do you want over powered items and god like stats? I think you jsut said you don't.

I'm all for making the game less about acquiring gear and making novice builds capable of success. I'm not in favor of changing the dynamic between melee and magic that has always existed as long as I can remember. Even at low levels, melee should be mostly concerned with protecting the other members of the party, and less about killing everything in sight. At higher levels the melee game becomes more social in nature, where the protections of the past can be used to their advantage. You should be grateful you have a relationship with a high level magic-user who has your back, rather than jealous of the fact he can turn everything in sight to stone.

[smatt]

I wasn't aware that balance was a main concern of DnD... The high level caster has ALWAYS been overpowered, hasn't it? Honestly, I'm not sure reinventing the wheel so that people who only play fighters can feel better about their characters in DDO is a good idea.

Besides, a well built character of any class can and will be an asset to just about any group.

The true imbalance in the game ahs come about with the "mana problem". In other words unlimited spell casting ability...... Casters basically have the ability to cast unlimited spells, due to the fact that there's mana fountain everywhere, with the exception to the raids where you're locked in, and in those they can just drink the unlimited amount of duped mana pots from the AH.

High level Sorcs (with Wizzys 2nd) are suppossed to be the most powerful within the D&D system, no doubt. But I think they've created a problem in DDO with the mana situation. The limit on casters in PnP D&D is the # of spells per level per day, if they did that in DDO, well it would slow things way down, not a good idea to go that route....

Not sure how to solve the unlimited casting ability, I've thought long and hard on it. Don't get me wrong, I love the casters, they often make things easy and are essential and should be bad ass . BUT I find that a lot of the time, after one has playeed a caster for a while, their head tends to grow to epic proportions, they tend to forget there's other people in the party, the buffs go by the wayside, they simply run ahead and kill everything in site.... Out of mana.. NP they just recall recharge and off to the races again.

There is indeed an imbalance problem.... They seem to be addressing the rogue problem by increasing the damage of the traps through-out the game, nice. And I see some bad ass rangers out ther ethat canm easily keep thigns in goood form. A well built offensive cleric, can indeed be darned close to a Wizzy/ or Sorc for that matter as far as power. Tanks, well it's all how you play, then how you build... Bards, hey man, bards are cool..... They make things easy in a lot of quests....

There's some balance and imbalance yes, but I think the biggest problem is the unlimited casting ability of the the Sorcs and Wizzys...... How to solve without destroying the game????? Not sure at this point really. But I think MysticTheurge has a good point.. More mobs with real SR, and ungodly resistances to elementals..... Yep, there needs to be more mobs that the casters just plain can't nuke..... Seems Mod 6 with the introdution of devils MIGHT vreate a bit of a problem for the balloon heads.. But we shall see

Nothing better then seeing the fits fromt he balloon heads because they gave a few shadows immunity to fire (but no to cold????? ).... LOLOLOLOLOLOL



Yep, unlimited mana is the current MAJOR imbalance within the DDO game system......

[Serpent]

I'm all for making the game less about acquiring gear and making novice builds capable of success. I'm not in favor of changing the dynamic between melee and magic that has always existed as long as I can remember. Even at low levels, melee should be mostly concerned with protecting the other members of the party, and less about killing everything in sight. At higher levels the melee game becomes more social in nature, where the protections of the past can be used to their advantage. You should be grateful you have a relationship with a high level magic-user who has your back, rather than jealous of the fact he can turn everything in sight to stone.

LOL. Jealous huh? Nope not at all. I have a caster and I know exactly what they can do. Roleplay you say. Sure thats a great idea for those that want to. Most people play a game to have fun, to be social and to beat the **** out of something. I play for all three reasons, but not to roleplay. Its just not fun for me when I don't get a great facial response or contorted body movement. It is for you and great. Grateful though? That's a stretch. Oh thank you mister caster for saving my life and making me do anything in this quest pointless beyond my own need to swing an imaginary sword.

I just disagree on out definition of roleplay...this is mine: role-play /ˈroʊlˌpleɪ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[rohl-pley] –verb (used with object)
1. to assume the attitudes, actions, and discourse of (another), esp. in a make-believe situation in an effort to understand a differing point of view or social interaction:

I don't understand your agenda. What do you want? Tell us. Calling me your enemy (implied by not ally) because I advocated the need for balance (not the logistics on how to change) just seems to be a poor response. Please explain your opposing agenda?

[GrayOldDruid]

I wonder if mobs get the phantom attack bug when they swing at us...

No, they don't... they can hit with melee from 30' away.

"What the heck just hit me? Nothing is even close!!"

95% of people playing not have not been playing since launch ( or is that 'it can't be that 95% of current player base is already capped' ) If that is the case, then DDO IS in trouble. New players are needed and if it is not somewhere closer to a 45% high-level players to 55% new-mid level players, then yikes. Anyone who likes or loves this game should be recruiting new players.

I am sure that in 2 years my perceptions of the game will have changed, perhaps dramatically. ( still, Goodblade quests and most harbor quests are already at the "*Sigh*, not again..." level. ) I hope, however, that I am never totally focused on one level of play and ignore or disregard that there is, in fact, more to the game.

Hopefully, I will stop playing the cookie cutter way and try playing with different spell setups... not even have firewall memorized on my caster or go through with only one set of weapons/armor instead of a set for each and every circumstance. or try Permadeath.... maybe a *gasp* Lightening/Acid based caster!!

I still don't think that there is a big imbalance in the Whole Game, but can see imbalance on a per-level basis - and think that is just fine.

And I am with Raithe - I am in favor of making quests that do not rely on DPS or Killing everything in sight as the sole method of completing the quest. I am in favor of having the Rogue be more necessary/useful. I am in favor of having sneaking be a viable alternative to quest completion. I am in favor of the "Optionals" being more rewarding. I think at higher levels that an uber fighter should be an uber wizard's bodyguard. I think that Multi-classed players should have just as much fun and ability to contribute meaningfully at 'end game' as 'pure' classes. That uber-equipment and 'clickies' should not be required to be effective.

[Serpent]

Hopefully, I will stop playing the cookie cutter way and try playing with different spell setups... not even have firewall memorized on my caster or go through with only one set of weapons/armor instead of a set for each and every circumstance. or try Permadeath....

I hope you can do what you advocate. It would be much fun. Find a strong guild though. One that lets you be an individual. I say this cause I can see many groups throwing a fit about you not having fire wall or not suing your best gear.

[Mercules]

I'm all for making the game less about acquiring gear and making novice builds capable of success. I'm not in favor of changing the dynamic between melee and magic that has always existed as long as I can remember. Even at low levels, melee should be mostly concerned with protecting the other members of the party, and less about killing everything in sight. At higher levels the melee game becomes more social in nature, where the protections of the past can be used to their advantage. You should be grateful you have a relationship with a high level magic-user who has your back, rather than jealous of the fact he can turn everything in sight to stone.

And I think you hit it in the first shot with this, Raithe. In PnP the group becomes a group and has group dynamics. They aren't always friends, but the characters work together because of something and in the end you often end up "owing" the other guy a favor or respect, or something nebulous. Because of this when the balance changes from me protecting the group, to you protecting the group it isn't jealousy that rises, but a sense of comradeship. In an MMO you have the "single serving" friends that are an amusing concept mentioned in Fight Club. If you are not useful in that particular quest, you are a detriment to the group instead of being an investment for the next quest where your skills will save the day.

Small guilds, groups of friends who play the same characters together, and such tend to end up with this very D&D concept from PnP. PuGs, normal MMO players, and such don't tend to have this. This moment is important for most of them, and I can understand how and where this came from.

This means the balance is less important in PnP campaigns, and shouldn't be important in DDO, but is because of the PuG nature of grouping. Even guild groups in moderate or large guilds tend to be a PuG developed from a shorter list of better known people.

Static groups create unique synergies and make certain tactics work that would never work with a group of strangers. On the other hand static groups mean there are times when people are missing and so no one is playing.

Nice point Raithe.