DDO needs better balance than D&D

[smatt]

Which just about evens casters up with the mobs finally and it only took 2 years.

Oh so it's the paybacks are a ***** thing..... OK, so it's replacing the dire injustice with dire injustice.. Now that' s critical thinking

[smatt]

I have the answer.. Let's all donate U$1,000. and completely rebuild the game

[Invalid_86]

Trageted nerfing is not a bad thing when one issue (when seperated from everything else) is overpowered.....

MOB HP and (P.C.) melee attacks (i.e progression) should have been nerfed long ago, and then alot of other things could be nerfed as well.

Oh yes, no doubt there.

[Cowdenicus]

Not I, sure I answer in a smart ass way. But it's jsut that being a smart ass. I only get offened when people start palying the oh you suck because of this go rebuild or this or that. That is offensive... And I will retort with more smart assed comments. Been doing the BB for a very long time, admined on a very large rock band board for a rather few years. Know every little snipe, stab, and backdoor rib trick in the book...... And I've seen a rather few here and try largely to leave that stuff alone Most of waaht I say is a joke anyways. It's really not a seriopsu issue to be honest, so why take it so seriously, jsut a game..... Have fun here jsut as you try to do in game

Keeping the discussion real and on point is the hardest thing to do. This isn't an easy problem to solve,and although it may be a rather deeply based problem as Cowdenicus has stated. I doubt they will ever go that deeply to solve it.....

At the very least elite level quests should be locked in quests.. No recall, No re-entry..... Solve the over abundance of mana pots and there it is..... problem solved

It is my opinion (and MT could back it up with statistical info if he wanted to although I doubt he would) that the power creep started at the beginning of the game (for whatever reasons although I think it was to provide a challenge for the party due to boosting of melee ability to make the combat engine work) and has created the entire issue we see before us today.

[Mercules]

Base problems:

1. Enhancement system-This was tacked on and goes along way in creating all the inflation that we see in the game.
2. Increasing attack bonus and the way BAB is handled in the game
3. Stupid mob AI e.g. firewall problems allowing easy destruction of mobs who stand in it blindly
4. Allowing quest re-entry
5. Mass availability of consumables like mana pots, heal scrolls etc....

Miss anything?

Solutions?
1. Well the really unpopular one would be to scale these back to less overpowered options that do not overpower the feats and skills in the game (the best approach in my opinion). The problem now is that enhancements give more power than feats in many cases. Would require massive overhaul (again) of the system... The other option would be to just try and add more enhancements and maybe scale back a few others to better balance the races and classes. To me enhancements should just add some flavor to the character not be so overpowering. I think the Prc thing could still be made to work, make them expensive in the new scaled back system...

2. BAB should be about speed, remove scaling attack bonus and have BAB effect swing speed rather than increasing the bonus. Just use Base BAB to determine attack scaling with a flat bonus and an increase in speed at each BAB +5

3. They are working on this one I think, need to get better mob logic so they don't stand in these spells and attack a little smarter.

4. Easy...just fail a quest on recall (already in the game for some quests like lighthouse in harbor)

5. Remove consumable vendors from the game. For classes that need spells like wizards let the class trainers teach them spell for a small fee. They can still drop but would be much more valuable/rare. I would remove spell point pots from the game as there is no equivalent in PnP to drinking a potion to allow you to cast an extra spell a day!

For 2. I would be more inclined to say drop the bonus to +1, +2, +3 if anything. The rest looks good. Another thing to consider though is the items. They are a touch more powerful than they should be at any given ML.

What people forget is that games like D&D are based around a random number generator. In this case it represents a D20 which gives a very narrow range to work with. Other games use a percentile system. A +1 to hit in a D20 system is the equivalent of a +5 to hit in a % system. This really makes major bonuses become exponentially better. +5 to hit is +25 to hit in other systems. The smaller range means even a slight change can unbalance things.

Because of that if we want the low end of the spectrum to be able to have the possibility of doing something the high end of the scale can, we need to limit the number range to 20. DDO has failed to do this. Because of this Arcane casters don't even bother to try and use normal weapons. In PnP they would save their spells for certain tasks and often use a mundane weapon for most things. They had a chance of hitting and doing damage. In DDO the mindset is go all the way, min/max to the extreme. No AC or Dex on a caster? Who cares, just max out your casting and Con.

We also have the classic GM vrs Players battle going on that should never happen. The players won't limit themselves so the GM(Turbine) tries to and then it looks like they are out to get the players who push back by being even more outrageous, and it just keeps escalating. Make a mob fire immune to get rid of rounding them all up and burning them in a couple firewalls and the players switch to doing it with blade barriers. What is the answer? More mobs? Doors? what?

DDO is NOT balanced but I don't think we can point the finger at Turbine when a lot of it comes from our own actions, some of which are understandable and human nature, but none the less things we knowingly did.

[Cowdenicus]

Oh so it's the paybacks are a ***** thing..... OK, so it's replacing the dire injustice with dire injustice.. Now that' s critical thinking

No what it is is that enemies have entirely (by factors) more hit points than they are supposed to. Without boosts to spell damage, the increase in MOB HP is a NERF to casters. (as well as rogues for sneak attack and rangers for favored enemies but let us focus on one thing here at a time)

The increase in Metamagics has now created a level playing field between the enemies in the game and casters.

Thats what kind of "thing" this is.

[EinarMal]

Trageted nerfing is not a bad thing when one issue (when seperated from everything else) is overpowered.....

MOB HP and (P.C.) melee attacks (i.e progression) should have been nerfed long ago, and then alot of other things could be nerfed as well.

I think this game is going to struggle big time with balance in the coming levels. That is what happens when the core is a little shaky and you add things like enhancements to a ruleset without thinking of the entire consequences to the end (level 20 for D&D proper).

This game does need a better overall plan and vision for the future. Are casters overpowered currently, I tend to think that they are. There are lots of other issues as well, not just casters. The big problem though is when non-casters get to the point of not being invited to groups and no longer useful in any meaningful way besides hitting certain stat levers or something.

Unfortunately the system is too complicated with too many factors to have any simple and easy to code answers. I agree that you have to address the core issues if you really want a well balanced game. If Turbine is unwilling to do that then the game will never be very balanced and people will continue to drift away for that and other reasons.

[gpk]

Again you are listing spells that enhance game play but they are all spells to buff melee. That does nothing to enhance the game play of a caster. That makes them a buff bot. (NOT FUN)

Blur and displace are valuable self survival spells as well, I don't often see casters dishing out Displacements to melees myself.

The new Metamagics do hurt lower casters but in the end make higher casters more powerful (which was needed especially with the NEW AI changes I suspect are in the pipeline although Turbine is being quiet about them for now.)

Well I hope the new AI changes come into mod6, but 4-5 months of Mod 5 with VERY powerful Metamagics and no AI changes, was that 5 months of good gameplay?

Casters needed the boost because of power creep and how much stronger enemies are in DDO then in Pen and Paper (and before somebody says this is not Pen and Paper guess what the spells are direct translations from pen and paper).
A 30 point fireball is effective at level 5 in pen and paper, in DDO it is a joke at level 5. heck it is a joke in waterworks on hard (unless it is being cast at you).

Spell crits, ehnancements, boosting items etc mean there arent really any level 5 30 point fireballs in DDO. Then again you also dont cast 1 fireball and those kobolds are hardly a worthy adversary for a level 5 caster.

Until the root issues are solved the only solutions are wide spread nerfs....... or more power creep. (And to answer your question did casters need to be doubled in power in Mod 5, YES, they are now finally on a level playing field with melee types who have been more than doubled in power sincer LEVEL 1, (you know when you get that extra attack.))

See again, this is where we differ in opinion. In game, even casters admit the doubling in power came from outta nowhere and they were already the stronger classes before mod5.
The playing field is FAR from level, it's skewed extremely heavily to the casters favor, to the point where as someone put it, the other classes are "doormen". If you can't see that, other than my questioning your sincerity, I'd say you are playing with very mediocre players (at best).

[Cowdenicus]

For 2. I would be more inclined to say drop the bonus to +1, +2, +3 if anything. The rest looks good. Another thing to consider though is the items. They are a touch more powerful than they should be at any given ML.

What people forget is that games like D&D are based around a random number generator. In this case it represents a D20 which gives a very narrow range to work with. Other games use a percentile system. A +1 to hit in a D20 system is the equivalent of a +5 to hit in a % system. This really makes major bonuses become exponentially better. +5 to hit is +25 to hit in other systems. The smaller range means even a slight change can unbalance things.

Because of that if we want the low end of the spectrum to be able to have the possibility of doing something the high end of the scale can, we need to limit the number range to 20. DDO has failed to do this. Because of this Arcane casters don't even bother to try and use normal weapons. In PnP they would save their spells for certain tasks and often use a mundane weapon for most things. They had a chance of hitting and doing damage. In DDO the mindset is go all the way, min/max to the extreme. No AC or Dex on a caster? Who cares, just max out your casting and Con.

We also have the classic GM vrs Players battle going on that should never happen. The players won't limit themselves so the GM(Turbine) tries to and then it looks like they are out to get the players who push back by being even more outrageous, and it just keeps escalating. Make a mob fire immune to get rid of rounding them all up and burning them in a couple firewalls and the players switch to doing it with blade barriers. What is the answer? More mobs? Doors? what?

DDO is NOT balanced but I don't think we can point the finger at Turbine when a lot of it comes from our own actions, some of which are understandable and human nature, but none the less things we knowingly did.

Oh I understand what you are saying but Turbine is the gate keeper. They have all the keys here, we only use their system (now I am not talking exploits here but legitimate design issues)

I think the term is called power creep. it has been around for a while, and it isnt going anywhere around here.

[Cowdenicus]

I think this game is going to struggle big time with balance in the coming levels. That is what happens when the core is a little shaky and you add things like enhancements to a ruleset without thinking of the entire consequences to the end (level 20 for D&D proper).

This game does need a better overall plan and vision for the future. Are casters overpowered currently, I tend to think that they are. There are lots of other issues as well, not just casters. The big problem though is when non-casters get to the point of not being invited to groups and no longer useful in any meaningful way besides hitting certain stat levers or something.

Unfortunately the system is too complicated with too many factors to have any simple and easy to code answers. I agree that you have to address the core issues if you really want a well balanced game. If Turbine is unwilling to do that then the game will never be very balanced and people will continue to drift away for that and other reasons.

QFT

[Mercules]

See again, this is where we differ in opinion. In game, even casters admit the doubling in power came from outta nowhere and they were already the stronger classes before mod5.
The playing field is FAR from level, it's skewed extremely heavily to the casters favor, to the point where as someone put it, the other classes are "doormen". If you can't see that, other than my questioning your sincerity, I'd say you are playing with very mediocre players (at best).

I'd take a look at his guild. I've played a lot with them because two of my real life friends are in his guild. They are all good solid players although some of them have been level capped for so long that they tend to forget what the rest of the game is like. So, the issue at hand is not that he has not been in groups with good players with maxed out equipment.

[Mercules]

Oh I understand what you are saying but Turbine is the gate keeper. They have all the keys here, we only use their system (now I am not talking exploits here but legitimate design issues)

I think the term is called power creep. it has been around for a while, and it isnt going anywhere around here.

Oh no... this is definitely a power creep issue, also known as MUDflation, for those of us who come from an old Text Based computer adventuring. Melee was overpowered before. They addressed that by boosting up the caster, who are now powerful. They are boosting Ranged now. What is the finally solution?

I think you are right that all of it could be related to that -one- extra swing we get at BAB 1 and just going up from there. I think some others are right(from other threads in previous weeks) the level cap was the one of the worst thing to happen to DDO. People got stuck and so looted endlessly and then twinked characters which allowed them to cap them quicker and loot more. So items became overpowered on top of the extra swing on top of the enhancements. The whole game is bloated with power which pushes the challenges we face to the point of Pass/Fail. Either you succeed, or you don't. There isn't a great "challenge" it is you overwhelm your foes or you are overwhelmed. This is extremely true of magic. Either your foe is dead/incapacitated, or you are about to be.

We exploded our D20 range. We need to definitely get some balance back and boosting everyone isn't the answer and nerfing one little part isn't the answer.

I am not saying we don't need to address this issue, I am stating we should exercise caution in what we do.

[GrayOldDruid]

I am sorry, you can't call an entire game unbalanced simply because there is some imbalance NOT in your favor at the current level cap.

The ONLY problem I can see is that capped characters amass too much money and too much XP to care about wasting either one of them, so Lvl14 casters can do all these things everyone is complaining about with ease - no other casters can. JUST level 14 or the lower-level alts that these people twink to heck and back.

On a "Big Picture" scale, there is no imbalance. Any imbalance seen is Player-Created.

If you focus only on the current cap level, then your perspective is imbalanced, making everything else look off as well.

Who cares about dying and the 5000xp debt - just make a madstone run on normal and you're all set, "I'm capped anyway...."

I saw another post but forgot to quote it, saying the Players are breaking the game and screaming it needs to be fixed, and I agree - "Quit breaking the game."

[Cowdenicus]

I'd take a look at his guild. I've played a lot with them because two of my real life friends are in his guild. They are all good solid players although some of them have been level capped for so long that they tend to forget what the rest of the game is like. So, the issue at hand is not that he has not been in groups with good players with maxed out equipment.

Just because I am level capped 72 hours after a mod doesnt mean I am an addict.......

[Mercules]

I am sorry, you can't call an entire game unbalanced simply because there is some imbalance NOT in your favor at the current level cap.

The ONLY problem I can see is that capped characters amass too much money and too much XP to care about wasting either one of them, so Lvl14 casters can do all these things everyone is complaining about with ease - no other casters can. JUST level 14 or the lower-level alts that these people twink to heck and back.

On a "Big Picture" scale, there is no imbalance. Any imbalance seen is Player-Created.

If you focus only on the current cap level, then your perspective is imbalanced, making everything else look off as well.

Who cares about dying and the 5000xp debt - just make a madstone run on normal and you're all set, "I'm capped anyway...."

I saw another post but forgot to quote it, saying the Players are breaking the game and screaming it needs to be fixed, and I agree - "Quit breaking the game."

I think you just said what I was saying in a MUCH clearer way. Thank you.

[Raithe]

DDO is NOT balanced but I don't think we can point the finger at Turbine when a lot of it comes from our own actions, some of which are understandable and human nature, but none the less things we knowingly did.

This is the bottom line. The problems that are getting highlighted in this thread have to do with player perception (and a mostly faulty perception at that), and abusing game mechanics that could be similarly abused in PnP D&D and other MMOs. People will always be able to sabotage their own enjoyment, and nothing the rulesmakers do can prevent it.

The real solution to the problems is to increase the diversity of play (and not necessarily by adding modules), so that people don't spend all their time "in the game" number crunching DPS values, comparing builds, and recalling out for more spell points.

[gpk]

I am sorry, you can't call an entire game unbalanced simply because there is some imbalance NOT in your favor at the current level cap.

The ONLY problem I can see is that capped characters amass too much money and too much XP to care about wasting either one of them, so Lvl14 casters can do all these things everyone is complaining about with ease - no other casters can. JUST level 14 or the lower-level alts that these people twink to heck and back.

On a "Big Picture" scale, there is no imbalance. Any imbalance seen is Player-Created.

If you focus only on the current cap level, then your perspective is imbalanced, making everything else look off as well.

Who cares about dying and the 5000xp debt - just make a madstone run on normal and you're all set, "I'm capped anyway...."

I saw another post but forgot to quote it, saying the Players are breaking the game and screaming it needs to be fixed, and I agree - "Quit breaking the game."

How is one class being overpowered vs another class EVER a good thing? Are we revenge-balancing the game? that's what it's come down to ?
So if casters needed some boosts back in mod and 2 they should be vastly overpowered in mod5? That's youre idea of "big picture" ?

So in mod 6, lets give all mobs SR40, Immunities to all elements, fear etc so that only melees can hurt them. By your logic that would be balancing right?

Since we can't go back in time and re-balance mod 1 and 2 we should forget about the present and future?
For you, balance means: my level 5 wizard had a harder time than a fighter so by level 14 he should be twice+ as powerful ?
How much actual time did you spend at level 5 versus at level 14 anyways?

One imbalanced mod for 1 class means there should be another imbalanced mod for another and thus we achieve balance?
What an absurd line of reasoning, am I understanding you correctly?

[Taojeff]

For 2. I would be more inclined to say drop the bonus to +1, +2, +3 if anything. The rest looks good. Another thing to consider though is the items. They are a touch more powerful than they should be at any given ML.

What people forget is that games like D&D are based around a random number generator. In this case it represents a D20 which gives a very narrow range to work with. Other games use a percentile system. A +1 to hit in a D20 system is the equivalent of a +5 to hit in a % system. This really makes major bonuses become exponentially better. +5 to hit is +25 to hit in other systems. The smaller range means even a slight change can unbalance things.

Because of that if we want the low end of the spectrum to be able to have the possibility of doing something the high end of the scale can, we need to limit the number range to 20. DDO has failed to do this. Because of this Arcane casters don't even bother to try and use normal weapons. In PnP they would save their spells for certain tasks and often use a mundane weapon for most things. They had a chance of hitting and doing damage. In DDO the mindset is go all the way, min/max to the extreme. No AC or Dex on a caster? Who cares, just max out your casting and Con.

We also have the classic GM vrs Players battle going on that should never happen. The players won't limit themselves so the GM(Turbine) tries to and then it looks like they are out to get the players who push back by being even more outrageous, and it just keeps escalating. Make a mob fire immune to get rid of rounding them all up and burning them in a couple firewalls and the players switch to doing it with blade barriers. What is the answer? More mobs? Doors? what?

DDO is NOT balanced but I don't think we can point the finger at Turbine when a lot of it comes from our own actions, some of which are understandable and human nature, but none the less things we knowingly did.

Claps

[gpk]

What people forget is that games like D&D are based around a random number generator. In this case it represents a D20 which gives a very narrow range to work with. Other games use a percentile system. A +1 to hit in a D20 system is the equivalent of a +5 to hit in a % system. This really makes major bonuses become exponentially better. +5 to hit is +25 to hit in other systems. The smaller range means even a slight change can unbalance things.

Well if you'll take a look at the Codog thread, you'll see Serpent , MysticTheurge, others and myself all pleading that the proposed 5th attack at +15 be scaled back to +10 at MOST. The devs agreed.

Thats a "nerf" right there, a big nerf that we asked for and a pre-emptive nerf at that. Hell I nerfed nearly all my characters.
Some in this thread would have you believe that a "nerf" is ALWAYS a bad thing.

Ohers would have you believe that since Mod5 is so "strong for casters at this level cap", the next mod should be overpowered in another direction. That +15 attack bonus would eventually lead to inflated mob AC and leave out the partial bab-classes out in the cold. But who cares about them right? They were good in mod 2, and it wouldn't be their "turn" to be "on top".

[Cowdenicus]

Well if you'll take a look at the Codog thread, you'll see Serpent , MysticTheurge, others and myself all pleading that the proposed 5th attack at +15 be scaled back to +10 at MOST. The devs agreed.

Thats a "nerf" right there, a big nerf that we asked for and a pre-emptive nerf at that. Hell I nerfed nearly all my characters.
Some in this thread would have you believe that a "nerf" is ALWAYS a bad thing.

Ohers would have you believe that since Mod5 is so "strong for casters at this level cap", the next mod should be overpowered in another direction. That +15 attack bonus would eventually lead to inflated mob AC and leave out the partial bab-classes out in the cold. But who cares about them right? They were good in mod 2, and it wouldn't be their "turn" to be "on top".