Bringeth thy hate. Ren caps his permatoon

[Renegade66]

I should be clear that I'm not so much against the raise as I am against a full party of raisers.

GFU. In my opinion though, Permadeath is more about strategy than your normal zerg runs. Although zerg make-up is somewhat important, part of perma strategy is taking the time to devise complimentary party member make-up with builds designed for survivability. You need a cleric and we chose a battle cleric. Clerics happen to be able to raise. You need a nuker and we chose a Sorc (of course). Sorcs happen to be able to raise. We felt a bard could get us out of a jam with fascinate, plus can buff and heal. Great fit for a permateam and they happen to be able to raise. Our fourth needed to be a batman build with the ability to do traps, unlock doors, plus melee and heal in jams. We chose a fighter/pally/rogue build that HAPPENS to be able to raise. Raising wasn't at the core of our strategy, but a definite benefit. You seem to think that playing smart is cheating or at least takes away from the experience. I could not find your arguement to be any sillier. It kind of reminds me of the player on Survivor that decides they have to be completely honest throughout the show. It's a game of strategy and wits. Use both to succeed or neither and fail.

But please quit saying that Sublime or members of, have never accomplished anything of note or implying that their skills are not up to it.

Once again (getting very old), I have never made a negative comment about Sublime. They were our inspiration and I have the highest regard for them. Sublime has been nothing but complimentary of our accomplishment. You, however, are a different story. You grill me with the same question over and over (tedious and mindnumbing). I do answer, but then ask what you have accomplished. You don't answer except to say that you've been doing it for two years. Well, I've never heard of you or any notable offering to the DDO community. I think you personally should scale back and play at your own level then advance as your skill advances. Mostly though, I think you should just go away.

[Oreg]

Impressive Renegade.

[parvo]

...Once again (getting very old), I have never made a negative comment about Sublime. They were our inspiration and I have the highest regard for them. Sublime has been nothing but complimentary of our accomplishment. You, however, are a different story. You grill me with the same question over and over (tedious and mindnumbing). I do answer, but then ask what you have accomplished. You don't answer except to say that you've been doing it for two years. Well, I've never heard of you or any notable offering to the DDO community. I think you personally should scale back and play at your own level then advance as your skill advances. Mostly though, I think you should just go away.

I have also been publicly complimentary of your accomplishment. Sure, I asked how many times you died. After all it's a Permadeath accomplishment. If I hadn't asked it others would have.

Notable offering to the DDO community...hmmm...good point. What do people consider a notable offering to the DDO community? Maybe I should contribute more...

[Renegade66]

I have also been publicly complimentary of your accomplishment.

I don't consider, "Congratulations, but *smirk* you don't play real permadeath" to be much of a compliment. It's akin to the sorry-but's I get from my wife. "I'm sorry I called you a lazy good for nothing SoB, but you really are one."

Notable offering to the DDO community...hmmm...good point. What do people consider a notable offering to the DDO community?

That's not for me to say, but typically anything that others haven't done or that others find it difficult to believe you actually did it. I always say that you know you've done something exceptional when others call you a liar.

[MondoGrunday]

to solve the issue, ren should call his "quasi" permadeath, since by general understanding of the term "perma" means forever. If you die, you cannot raise. I think claiming to cap a perma death toon when in fact you have been raised or recalled back to life isn't really an accurate statement. If you remove the perma death part , nobody will criticize your accomplishment.

on the other hand I don't think it would be that hard to cap a toon in perma death. particulary in a guild where everyone knows each others playstyles and how the quests are going to be attacked. picking easy quests and doing them on easy difficulty isn't hard to do, but it would take a long time.

grats on only 3 deaths in 14 levels tho

[GeneralDiomedes]

Congrats again ..

When I first spied 'Legion Permadeath' in the Who list .. I knew that there would be little ****ing around and you would just get it done.

[arminius]

Congratulations on the extremely impressive achievement. I know I wouldn't have the patience.

I don't understand the "definition of permadeath" debate. I thought the point of permadeath was not to conform to Real Life rules where you're dead, you're dead (founders of ancient religions notwithstanding). I thought the point of permadeath was to conform to Dungeons and Dragons Paper and Pencil rules, wherein there are no shrines and no "recall."

That means to me that Raise Dead and Resurrection are perfectly legitimate mechanisms, as they are in D+D PnP. Have I missed something? What would be the point of playing permadeath without Raise Dead and Resurrection? Clerical magic is illegitmate somehow?

_

[GeneralDiomedes]

I don't understand the "definition of permadeath" debate. I thought the point of permadeath was not to conform to Real Life rules where you're dead, you're dead (founders of ancient religions notwithstanding). I thought the point of permadeath was to conform to Dungeons and Dragons Paper and Pencil rules, wherein there are no shrines and no "recall."

That means to me that Raise Dead and Resurrection are perfectly legitimate mechanisms, as they are in D+D PnP. Have I missed something? What would be the point of playing permadeath without Raise Dead and Resurrection? Clerical magic is illegitmate somehow?
_

It would be very interesting indeed if Raise Dead adhered strictly to PnP rules, i.e. you must have a body.

[Renegade66]

to solve the issue, ren should call his "quasi" permadeath, since by general understanding of the term "perma" means forever. If you die, you cannot raise. I think claiming to cap a perma death toon when in fact you have been raised or recalled back to life isn't really an accurate statement. If you remove the perma death part , nobody will criticize your accomplishment.

on the other hand I don't think it would be that hard to cap a toon in perma death. particulary in a guild where everyone knows each others playstyles and how the quests are going to be attacked. picking easy quests and doing them on easy difficulty isn't hard to do, but it would take a long time.

grats on only 3 deaths in 14 levels tho

Well, quasi is fine with me, but then it would have to be Sublime Quasi Permadeath and Mortal Voyage Quasi Permadeath as well. We just followed exising PD rulesets. Also, the other guys in my 4 man group reached 14th level with less deaths than I did.

I tend to agree that capping wasn't so bad since we were in the same group of likeminded and likeskilled players. Getting to lvl 9 can be rocky though. I wouldn't know about picking easy quests on easy difficulty. We didn't do that. We ran some of the toughests quests in the game (e.g. Madstone Crater hard 3man, Crucible elite 3man, PotP elite 3man, etc.). There was much risk, but we leveled quickly (less than a month from creation to 14 including Womp and me rerolling once). I couldn't handle a slow, no risk approach and I definitely don't recommend it. The thrill comes from the adreneline surge you get from; A) getting in over your head and managing to play your way through certain death, and B) pulling killer loot above your level as a reward for that risk.

[Renegade66]

That means to me that Raise Dead and Resurrection are perfectly legitimate mechanisms, as they are in D+D PnP. Have I missed something? What would be the point of playing permadeath without Raise Dead and Resurrection? Clerical magic is illegitmate somehow?

You're absolutely right. The only thing you've missed is one person's obsession with not raising at all. Although certainly a great challenge, I haven't seen any permarules that forbid a Cleric from using his raise/resurrection spells. So I guess I'm left with an asterisk next to my name in the record book as the first "quasi" Permadeather to reach level 14 and cap. C'est la vie.

[arminius]

It would be very interesting indeed if Raise Dead adhered strictly to PnP rules, i.e. you must have a body.

Oh, I'd definitely be in favor of something like that for Raise Dead. If you die from Cloudkill and you get a Raise Dead, then you'd better have a Neutralize Poison ready to be whipped out. Same with Disease, etc. Resurrect, and the poison or disease's gone. I'd even be in favor of Raise Dead not applying to death from Disintegrate--requiring a full Resurrection instead, thought that would be more controversial in an MMO. When I did PnP, that was the real terror of Beholders....

_

[Talakus]

Ce la vie.

First of all, who gave you permision to use french sentence in your text? I don't recall authorizing this.
The proper writing is: C'est la vie!
Second.
I had hard evidence on video surveillance that you died during the goodblades quest, but manage to give a huge amount of plat to the warforged inside the quest, to raise you, so nobody would know. But the CIA apparently destroyed it with a bunch of other videos so I can't expose you!
Third. Well done! Gratz! Bravo! You and your group are kick A** players!
Four.
Send me back my W/P rapier that you stole on the auction house the other day and give me tome piece 2.

[parvo]

I don't consider, "Congratulations, but *smirk* you don't play real permadeath" to be much of a compliment. It's akin to the sorry-but's I get from my wife. "I'm sorry I called you a lazy good for nothing SoB, but you really are one."



That's not for me to say, but typically anything that others haven't done or that others find it difficult to believe you actually did it. I always say that you know you've done something exceptional when others call you a liar.

Here's the disconnect. You took what I said as an attack on what you accomplished and it wasn't so. I simply didn't want people thinking that existing PD guilds quest with full parties of raisers. The attacking back and forth isn't necessary. This can be a valuable discourse if you let it.

[Oreg]

Here's the disconnect. You took what I said as an attack on what you accomplished and it wasn't so. I simply didn't want people thinking that existing PD guilds quest with full parties of raisers. The attacking back and forth isn't necessary. This can be a valuable discourse if you let it.

Yeah except that just about everyone else took what you said as an attack also. Then again maybe it is all of us and not you. *shrugs*

[Renegade66]

Congrats again ..

When I first spied 'Legion Permadeath' in the Who list .. I knew that there would be little ****ing around and you would just get it done.

Thanks GD. If interested, you're welcome to start up a new permatoon on Sarlona and join our group. We're all low level right now and would love to have your PD experience in our group and also get your take on how we roll.

[parvo]

...There was much risk, but we leveled quickly (less than a month from creation to 14 including Womp and me rerolling once). I couldn't handle a slow, no risk approach and I definitely don't recommend it. The thrill comes from the adreneline surge you get from; A) getting in over your head and managing to play your way through certain death, and B) pulling killer loot above your level as a reward for that risk.

One thing we absolutely agree on is how fun it is to manage your way through a quest where there is significant risk. My favorite questing is when the group plays extremely well because they have to in order to survive. When you finish a quest and the whole group says "AFK bio..." but they're really just catching their breath, that's sweet.

I'll point out again that I'm not so much against the raise. What I don't like is the availability of Raise Scrolls at commodity vendors which give all characters with high enough UMD the ability to raise. The commodity vendors were really poor MMO design. I tried to adress that with the Mortal Voyage rule set. Without them, the game is much more balanced.

[GHOSTRYDER]

First off congrats to the OP, no doubt doing what you did took a tremendous amount of planning, teamwork, and execution. And shouldnt be written off as not being a great accomplishment just because it doesnt follow what somebody else considers "legit".

I think Parvos problem is that he just feels a little shown up in his area of expertise, or maybe doesnt actually feel shown up personally, but feels it's making him look that way, or like it's making people believe that what HE does is easier than it really is, because he may take it as you guys saying "Im doing the exact same thing as you just better", while it certainly is just good planning and taking steps to heighten your chances of survival, and taking advantage of the resources the game offers in character customization and availability of life saving commodities, no it's not EXACTLY the same as having only one character that can raise, thus meaning if that one character dies it's over for him/her, and quite possibly over for the rest of the group at that point, and/or allowing ONLY the use of scrolls, potions, etc found in chests. I think that's all he's trying to point out, is that youre not doing the exact same thing that he and others are. Which i believe has already been pointed out Parvo, so there's really no need to keep insisting so.

Point is, noone here said that legion is doing exactly what Mortal Voyage does or any other guild, and doing it better, they simply relayed what THEY had accomplished, how they did it, and the rules THEY followed, which is still very much considered permadeath, perhaps to spark interest among other players who are tired of the daily grind of loot runs and constant raiding, and inspire them to give this risky and rewarding play style a try.

Again i applaud the OP and his group for the accomplishment, as well as anyone else, including Mortal Voyage, Sublime, or any one else for setting challenging goals and achieving them. And for spreading the word about the fun you had doing so, so maybe others on the brink of moving on will find new life with something that's "getting old" to them.

[Renegade66]

I think Parvos problem is that he just feels a little shown up in his area of expertise, or maybe doesnt actually feel shown up personally, but feels it's making him look that way, or like it's making people believe that what HE does is easier than it really is, because he may take it as you guys saying "Im doing the exact same thing as you just better", while it certainly is just good planning and taking steps to heighten your chances of survival, and taking advantage of the resources the game offers in character customization and availability of life saving commodities, no it's not EXACTLY the same as having only one character that can raise, thus meaning if that one character dies it's over for him/her, and quite possibly over for the rest of the group at that point, and/or allowing ONLY the use of scrolls, potions, etc found in chests.

I've submitted your post to the Guiness Book of World Records as having the single, longest run-on sentence in the history of the English language.

Thanks for the grats.

[arminius]

I've submitted your post to the Guiness Book of World Records as having the single, longest run-on sentence in the history of the English language.

Wow, for a founder, you really don't read the forums much, huh?

[GHOSTRYDER]

I've submitted your post to the Guinness Book of World Records as having the single, longest run-on sentence in the history of the English language.

Thanks for the grats.

cool, hope i get it

oh, and fixed your spelling error Mr. english teacher.