Devs: It's time to get rid of or change kill counts in the experience report........

[Gum]

/Signed

For the more info part. As a cleric I would love to get a bonus for no death, or see how many in capped players I brought back, or my max heal, most neg. lvls restored, etc. As far as it starting arguments, I say rise above it and be mature, but that's just my opinion and I'm not everyone else.

[Twerpp]

Lets take everything out of the game that hurts peoples delicate feelings. How insecure do you have to be to let that bother you anyway? Go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure.

/not signed.

[BlueLightBandit]

There's one small problem here... for every stat you add in here, theres seventeen you can't describe... for example:

Kill count exists but it isn't very informative, so you add total damage. Do you include the damage -past- the kill, i.e. mob has 10hp, you swing for 12, do you get credit for doing 12 points of damage or only the 10?

You want points healed, but now you have to add a section for -who- healed you, whether it was the cleric, or the bard, or pots... or even the umd sorceror. Here alone there would have to be six lines for each player, and that in a raid would be ridiculous.

Then, compounded on top of all that, you're gonna get crowd control specced characters that don't really have a numerical value to what they do... maybe seconds stunned??? to contain greater command, bards songs, hypnotism, charm, flesh to stone? and then those cold spells that stun the undead, except now you have to enact a system to adequately describe this type of spell as both doing damage and stunning the mob.

After you add all that in, if you have enough room left on the quest xp log, then the stat damagers are going to see nothing... so you have to add a section for them to be fair... after stat damagers there's intimidation and sunder and lord knows what else you'd have to add.

So in order to do this correctly, they'd literally have to make a window, five screens tall, just to get a few more pieces of information that you realistically can do without anyway. DDO should never be about stats and kill counts... it should be about achieving a goal as a team. When a person changes the way they play based on a numeric value that truly indicates very little... it shows a great deal about that player. I for one would not agree with a change to accommodate an accountant or an auditor. If numbers are what you are after, DDO probably leaves a lot to be desired... you know with the lack of turns and the whole "real-time" combat system and all.

[GuitarHero]

BLB kinda hit the nail on the head for me, so i won't really parrot what he said, but i do add, the Experience Report has all the numbers i need... they're down at the bottom... yeah, the experience....

[GlassCannon]

If I were on the team or in charge.

Full Character Output Reports.

Damage given
Damage taken
Damage healed(non-spell)
Damage healed(spell)
Kills
Plinks(kills on 10% or less that they did less than 40% damage on)
Spellpoint % used overall
Rolls below 3 on skill checks
Rolls above 17 on skill checks
Times dead
Times raised/resurrected
Crowdkills(3 or more at one time)
Spells failed due to arcane failure
Scrolls used
Wands consumed
Bolts fired
Arrows fired
Accuracy rating(hits vs misses vs actual shots rolled)
Mnemonic Potions consumed
High level scrolls used(caster lvl 5+)

Overall party contribution rating(E = Exceptional, A = Above average, S = Satisfactory, B = Below average, N = Needs improvement/practice)

OPC would be based on quest/class/primary skills.

This would be clientside and would help to synch server shots fired/accuracy/etc to show where the bugs are at with better accuracy. For slower conns it could be serverside in a small cache.

[BlueLightBandit]

Overall party contribution rating

Wow... I disagree with the concept of this entirely.

Like I said earlier, if you need to assign a numerical value to a persons value to a party then you are missing the entire point of DDO.

He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination.

[Vormaerin]

Yeah, the rating concept is a joke. For one thing, its a zero sum game. So its not possible for a fighter to up his rating without taking away from the sorceror or the barbarian.. there's only so much in the way of bad guys to abuse. On top of that, the system proposed is specious. What do you rate the contribution of an actual (yeah, rarely seen in DDO) tank? He sure isn't killing as much as the barb or the sorceror or using up spell points. He's just grabbing aggro, holding doorways, and generally not dying or letting anyone else die. Or the crowd control buffing sorts of spellcasters? They certainly contribute, but what do you go by? Spell points expended? That certainly creates bad incentives....

Party contribution is very subjective. The guy who kills the most may not, in fact, be the most useful team member. Or even a desirable team member in some cases.

[Max2000]

Making it disable/enable by party leader would be a good idea.

Some people might prefer knowing the kill count, some people might want it off to prevent problems mentioned above.

[Hvymetal]

Wow... I disagree with the concept of this entirely.

Like I said earlier, if you need to assign a numerical value to a persons value to a party then you are missing the entire point of DDO.

QFT

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

This question is foolishly asked. No chance AT ALL that ANY idea will be agreed upon by all.

So you rename the XP report to Quest Summary and add a contributions chart for others is the only alternative.

Eliminating kill count is ridiculous. Meeles contribute and their output should REMAIN documented. A small contributions chart to highlight contributions of the hard work of a Cleric and/or a Bard and/or Crowd Control caster would certainly be beneficial.

But in reality....

It will never happen because someone would always get left out, which is why they didnt include it in the first place. So I say hooray to DDO devs for making a good decision and Boooo to a poor question.

------->

Of course GOOD (and TIMELY) new content will be the only way this game stays alive. Oh and advertising. I like the promotion they are doing now with free time if we get another player. I suggested at game launch that they should have ALWAYS had that promotion live..

Im a big DDO fan that wants to see this game stay alive.

[Draclaud]

You don't like the kill count because...
A. People that don't keep up in the kill count whine about some body's character being overpowered.
B. People that are over obsessed with the kill count zerg when they fall behind.

and you'd rather see a more detailed report so everyone can feeeeeeeel better abouth them selves?

Look, there is nothing wrong with the kill count. As a mele it lets you know how effective your being. If you're a DPS based fighter/barb and you're getting outkilled by a rogue it lets you know it's time for a reroll. If you whine about it...get some cheese.
People that get obsessed abut the kill count and zerg are only fooling themselves about the effectivness of their characters(as they skew the results).

I'm sorry but the kind of thinking you are showing here is kinda dangerous as it's the same thinking that makes us quit keeping score at little league games and quit giving letter grades in school so everyone feeeeeeels better about themselves reguardless of weather or not the actually have a reason to feel good about themselves...

Keep the kill count, stop whining, there are better things to focus on and get over it...

Just my 2 cp...

[Mhykke]

You don't like the kill count because...
A. People that don't keep up in the kill count whine about some body's character being overpowered.
B. People that are over obsessed with the kill count zerg when they fall behind.

and you'd rather see a more detailed report so everyone can feeeeeeeel better abouth them selves?

Look, there is nothing wrong with the kill count. As a mele it lets you know how effective your being. If you're a DPS based fighter/barb and you're getting outkilled by a rogue it lets you know it's time for a reroll. If you whine about it...get some cheese.
People that get obsessed abut the kill count and zerg are only fooling themselves about the effectivness of their characters(as they skew the results).

I'm sorry but the kind of thinking you are showing here is kinda dangerous as it's the same thinking that makes us quit keeping score at little league games and quit giving letter grades in school so everyone feeeeeeels better about themselves reguardless of weather or not the actually have a reason to feel good about themselves...

Keep the kill count, stop whining, there are better things to focus on and get over it...

Just my 2 cp...

It's not me that doesn't like the kill count. I'm fine with it. I just think that maybe leaving it how it is creates more problems than are needed. I'd be for adding more to the xp report. Sure, you'll probably always leave things out, but this isn't an argument for doing nothing. Saying you'll never be able to include everything shouldn't preclude turbine from trying to incorporate more, even if that more is short of everything.

I'd rather not get rid of them. I'd like to see more, so that people don't just look at kill count numbers, get p#ssed, and come to the forums crying for nerfs....at least that's one reason.

[GuitarHero]

Look, there is nothing wrong with the kill count. As a mele it lets you know how effective your being. If you're a DPS based fighter/barb and you're getting outkilled by a rogue it lets you know it's time for a reroll.

Why? Are you so insecure that your big beafy barbarian is getting outkilled by the tiny little rogue that you have to delete him? Rogues are DPS, too, you know? We do more than take care of those pesky boxes to traps that everyone's running through.

Besides, as kill count only counts whoever gets the LAST hit, a barbarian with a greataxe is getting about half as many attacks as a rogue with a rapier and shortsword, so the rogue is twice as likely (66%) to get the last hit in than the single weaponed barb (33%), regardless if that last hit is for 200 points of damage, or just a lowly 80 (and yes, my rogue can regularly hit for 80+ damage without getting aggro.)

[BUpcott]

Look, there is nothing wrong with the kill count. As a mele it lets you know how effective your being. If you're a DPS based fighter/barb and you're getting outkilled by a rogue it lets you know it's time for a reroll. If you whine about it...get some cheese.

Well if you are holding agro allowing said rog to get his sneak attack (which is up to what 7d6 right now) than you are certainly doing your job. Rog can deal out massive DPS as can Rangers, as can Bards. So kill count does not effectively tell you how efficient you are being but only how many last shots you got.

[RichD]

I think they could come up with a relatively compact report that would give people a fair idea of how each person contributed on the quest. It could be formatted as a table with a column per party member and the following rows (some of which with multiple values) - example entries shown in parentheses:

Kills (26)
Deaths (0)

Damage Given/# of mobs damaged (436/42)
Damage Taken/# of mobs & traps damaged by (200/31)

Mobs Held/Mezzed/Charmed/Debuffed (0/5/0/0)
# of Times Held/Mezzed/Charmed/Debuffed (1/1/0/3)

Stat Damage Given/# of mobs Stat Damaged (4/1)
Stat Damage Taken/# of times took Stat Damage (0/0)

Minutes of Buffs Given (to others) (20)
Resses Given (0)
Healing Given to others (0)
Healing Taken from others (170)
Self Healing (17)

[Havok34]

All quests have a binary ending.

Did you complete the quest? Yes/No?

End of story.

That is the final determination is the quest party was worthy or not.

[MrCow]

I always found a perception check worked fine to tell me if things were running fine and who was dead weight in a group. I might roll a 1 or 3 on those checks now and then but it works enough.

I guess that puts me in the camp of "no need to add this feature".

[Ikuryo]

I personally would like more info just because I like seeing numbers and watching those numbers get bigger. As a ranger I would like to know how good of a job I am doing dealing damage and avoiding damage. I'm fairly careful about not being hit by anything as I shoot stuff down but I know that my kill numbers end up low because I soften up a lot of stuff that the melee finish off. I worry that others think I am not doing a good job hurting stuff because I normally end up in the lower set of the kill numbers. I know that I am putting out a lot of damage at times but when my kill count is 1/10 of the melee and arcanes I grow worried that it adds to the view that archer rangers are worthless in a group.

I guess I would like the additional info just so I could point to it and say "See I did contribute to the fights and did not just sit in the back with the healer watching.

[Cashiry]

Personally, I wouldn't want the time taken to do this because it detracts from the DEVS fixing the real problems. Would it be nice, Yes. We all know that the last hit/spell in gets the kill.

Alot of people who claim their builds are great because of kill counts, would finally see they are just getting the last hit in. I don't play a barbarian or a spec'd out DPS Fighter, but I do know that the overall raw power that they do have, can take a mob from full health too close to death in the matter of a few swings on most mobs, and arcane/divine casters can do the same with some of their AOE spells. This just allows some builds to take the credit where the credit isn't due/giving the self illusion that their builds are somehow good because of the kill count.

So, If they do put something like this into the quest reports, It would be welcome, just to see the self proclaimers get a reality check.

Kill count isn't the end all be all, Its how the team meshes together that determines how well your party gets through any given quest.

[Havok34]

I personally would like more info just because I like seeing numbers and watching those numbers get bigger. As a ranger I would like to know how good of a job I am doing dealing damage and avoiding damage. I'm fairly careful about not being hit by anything as I shoot stuff down but I know that my kill numbers end up low because I soften up a lot of stuff that the melee finish off. I worry that others think I am not doing a good job hurting stuff because I normally end up in the lower set of the kill numbers. I know that I am putting out a lot of damage at times but when my kill count is 1/10 of the melee and arcanes I grow worried that it adds to the view that archer rangers are worthless in a group.

I guess I would like the additional info just so I could point to it and say "See I did contribute to the fights and did not just sit in the back with the healer watching.

If kill count is the only thing people look at, then yes, someone might lead to that conclusion.

I qualify that because one of my first runs on Chamber of Raiyum took 6 hours. It was completed, but not really fun.

You can tell how well the group is doing without the kill count. As someone mentioned earlier. You can just tell.

My original is a Paladin. Not high DPS, but the Paladin does help in many ways. The Aura's, a little healing here and there, I can vorpal with the best, plus cursespewing, destruction, etc. Up against a pure fighter or barbarian, going to be tough to lead kill count because they do enough damage to finish off most of the mob. Like your ranger, I do soften them up quite a bit.

If you are not completely focus'd / tunnel vision you can tell how the others are doing. You don't need counters/stats to tell you that.

For some, they always want stats.

The only stat I need to see is quest completed and we had a fun time.