Total Respec - A Truely Fair Method

[Fallout]

And this is the view that I take as well.

I know MT. We should start 7 or 8 threads on how not to do Respecing so that maybe the older threads with counter arguments that refute our claims might scroll off the first screen where the Devs are less likely to read them thus forcing anyone who doesn't agree with us to repost the same arguments over and over.

You could. But the fact of the matter is, alot of people are against it. But also there is alot of people are for it.

So the question is, is it worth it for Turbine to investigate and implement a system. And if people would use it as premium service.

[MysticTheurge]

you need to add ML to all current tomes.

Yes.

[krud]

If you add ML to tomes, then you need to add ML to all current tomes.
No you don't, just like those +2 tomes some people got early on, but people who joined up later didn't.

And what about tomes already eaten? Tomes are unbound currently, and they should be unbound if there's a respec. And like I stated before, if someone eats an unbound +2 Int tome at L1, then a ML 8 restriction would cause the person to lose skill points if he respecs.

What about someone who ate that +2 tome at 14 and now respecs? woohoo more skill points! If that is no big deal then the loss of a few should be no big deal either. The MLs chosen are a good middle ground. You keep saying that there are safe guards to respecs, but you consistently argue against almost all of them.

[Fallout]

What about someone who ate that +2 tome at 14 and now respecs? woohoo more skill points! If that is no big deal then the loss of a few should be no big deal either. The MLs chosen are a good middle ground. You keep saying that there are safe guards to respecs, but you consistently argue against almost all of them.

>If that is no big deal then the loss of a few should be no big deal either.

Feel free to eat your tome at L14 if you feel like losing skill points if you decide to use the respec feature. No one's stopping you.
And indeed if people gain a couple of skill points, how is it going to cripple the game? My char will get some more in jump and maybe tumble. Oh yeah, I can solo Velah now...

>there are safe guards to respecs, but you consistently argue against almost all of them

I argue against favor loss, because that is one of the most boring grinds/time sink ever.

[krud]

>If that is no big deal then the loss of a few should be no big deal either.

Feel free to eat your tome at L14 if you feel like losing skill points if you decide to use the respec feature. No one's stopping you.
And indeed if people gain a couple of skill points, how is it going to cripple the game? My char will get some more in jump and maybe tumble. Oh yeah, I can solo Velah now...

>there are safe guards to respecs, but you consistently argue against almost all of them

I argue against favor loss, because that is one of the most boring grinds/time sink ever.

"I, me, my character..." just because you have no use for skill points does not mean they are a trivial aspect of the game. Think Batman and all its incarnations. There is a build which is meant to maximize abilities and skills with as little INT investment as possible. Look how popular it became. It is not hard to see how you can respec into a build only achievable thru respec. "The new respec build", able to find and disable 99% of traps, pick all locks, cast resurrect scrolls, get STWF and maintain a high AC and HP, and intimidate like mad ...but the only way to do so is to respec once you get that bound +3 int tome.

Again, you keep using other peoples problems in order to get maximum gain for yourself.

[Fallout]

Think Batman and all its incarnations.

Again, you keep using other peoples problems in order to get maximum gain for yourself.

>Think Batman and all its incarnations.

Whos fault is it? The current system is design a way that 1 or 2 levels of rogue can pretty much do a full class of rogue can do.

>Again, you keep using other peoples problems in order to get maximum gain for yourself

I use issues to illustrate a point. I don't play a rogue or wiz. Its not going to make a big difference for me if I gain a couple of extra points. But whats unfair is losing skill points if setting ML on tomes. Also try to original thoughts and arguements instead of piggy backing MT and Dane's arguements.

[krud]

>Think Batman and all its incarnations.

Whos fault is it? The current system is design a way that 1 or 2 levels of rogue can pretty much do a full class of rogue can do.

>Again, you keep using other peoples problems in order to get maximum gain for yourself

I use issues to illustrate a point. I don't play a rogue or wiz. Its not going to make a big difference for me if I gain a couple of extra points. But whats unfair is losing skill points if setting ML on tomes. Also try to original thoughts and arguements instead of piggy backing MT and Dane's arguements.

Most of the issues you present to illustrate your point can be resolved without a total respec. I don't recall either MT or Dane bringing up the issue of using respec to gain additional skill points. *correction* i don't think either of those two argued anything against skill point abuse. I'm not complaining that the batman build is possible or that people make it. My concern is being able to do more with a respec than is otherwise possible. It's called a safeguard. Although you cannot see the possibilities for gain, they do exist, and people will take advantage of them.

the number of people who want to change some skill or attribute is probably large ...the amount of those who want a total respec is smaller ...the amount of those who ate a +2 Int tome at lvl1 is even smaller.

What is so wrong with the middle ground? just so the one or two people who ate a +2 int tome at lvl1, and also desire a total respec instead of a partial one can save a few skill points? You see, if there are so many people out there in that particular situation that need a total respec that are so concerned about those "few" skill points, then it follows that there are just as many, if not more, who will use whatever means available to eak out every possible advantage one could gain through a respec.

The OP listed +2 tomes at ML9. I would put it at ML8 (with bound tomes being ML6). So at respec you get a ML6 +2 tome. With a ML6 it's minus 5 skill points for a select few, vs +13-26 for many who respec with an int tome and no ML.

[llevenbaxx]

Feat respec, fine.
Enhancement respec, fine.
Skill respec, fine.
Ability score respec, fine.

Class respec, no.
Race respec, no.

If you want to change those things, make a new character.

(With, of course, my usual caveat that in-game GMs should be granted the ability to de-level people who have leveled within the last 48 hours. This would solve the "omg I clicked on the wrong trainer and now I'm a Sorcerer 8/Wizard 1" problems.)

I like this too. I could easily see noone ever giving up another piece of raid loot on the off chance you might want to respec you ftr as a wizard for w/e reason. That should definitely be a whole new character. If you make a booboo like going to the wrong trainer you can still fix it though.

Other than that I kinda like the whole process. Including the charge.

[Borror0]

Class respec, no.
Race respec, no.

IMO, the purpose of a respect is to allow you to adapt to changes made to the game.

Remember that Human rogue that loved Human Versitility?
Remember when they changed Aura of Good base from 2 to 1?
Remember the change they made to Halfling luck?

There are a few examples of changes made to a race or class that gives you a reason to start over, but you don't because of the loos of bound gear.

[Fallout]

Most of the issues you present to illustrate your point can be resolved without a total respec.

What is so wrong with the middle ground?

And like I said before I am for skill/attrib/32 pt retro favor.

>What is so wrong with the middle ground?

If they change ALL tomes to have ML, then thats fair. But ML only for respec purposes, then I'm against it.

[krud]

If they change ALL tomes to have ML, then thats fair.

that is the idea.

[SneakThief]

I still think:

Leave the tomes, favor, and gear. We worked hard for those
(I'd also be "ok" with favor dropping one level: Elite to Hard, Hard to normal, etc).

Set me back to 0 XP.

Make us work it up from there.

Or better, let us choose how many levels we want dropped.

But in either case, make us work the character up from that point.

Paying? hmmmmmmmm Rather not, but maybe.

Appearance? I always find it odd in a town that large with that many shops, there isnt a barber.

JMO...

[Stonewall]

I have read many of the other posts recently discussing Total Respecs, and have given a good deal of thought to this idea. After talking with a Guildmate of mine, I think we came up with a solution that will solve most of the issues discussed in the other threads. I am not espousing the Pro vs. Con of the Total Respec (but personally, I think it should be available as a Premium Service, for say $10-$20 per Respec)

The "Fair" way to complete a DDO Respec.

Guidelines
#1) The Total Respec should be a DDO Premium Service. $10 or $20 USD to purchase.
#2) The Total Respec should have a 3-month timer per character.
#3) The Total Respec will allow conversion of a 28-point character to a 32-point character.
#4) The Total Respec will NOT allow changing of Name, Race or Appearance.
#5) The Total Respec will leave Favor, Items, and XP Intact.

Total Respec Process
1) The Player logs into the DDO Premium Services Website, and orders a "Total Repec" for their specific character.
2) Within 24-hours, the character is delivered a "Total Respec Token", which goes into his inventory, as a Bound Item.
3) If this item is in your inventory, you can type /FullRespec to initiate the Respec System.
4) Your character is logged out, and the game examines your character, and strips all eaten Tomes off, and recreates each of these Tomes, as Bound Tomes, in that Character's Inventory.
4a) OPTIONAL: +1 Tomes are set with NO ML. +2 Tomes are set with ML9, +3 Tomes are set with ML12
5) You are taken to the Class & Alignment Selection Page, then the Stat Point Page of the CharGen for your character, with 32-points available for all non-Drow
6) You set your Stats, Skill Points, then Feats. Click Finish
7) You appear, where you logged out, with your previously eaten Tome back in your inventory (as Bound Tomes) and a Level 1, but with all of your previous XP.
8) You eat your tomes, and run off to your trainers to level back up to wherever you were.

* The Optional 4a is an attempt to balance the fact that +2 Tomes are almost always Bound Raid Loot, and +3 Tomes are always Bound Raid Loot. This will further "Balance" Tome re-application. ML9 is usually a minimum for running the Dragon and the Titan, and ML12 for Stormreaver and Abbot. But this can be left out.

The key to this method is the "Tome Stripping" We know that Turbine tracks Tomes (Inherent Bonus), at the very least to the highest-level Tome you have eaten. By "Stripping" your Tomes, and recreating them in your inventory, you prevent any Tome usage from affecting Character Generation and initial Feats & Skills, helping to preserve the balance of the characters. Recreating them as Bound Tomes in your inventory will allow you to keep the benefit of all your Tomes, but not to sell or trade them. Keeping your XP, Items, and Favor, means you have to take a few minutes to run around and re-level up to whatever level you were previously, but does not impose any unnecessary penalty on the character (Consider the Penalty that it is ONLY available as a Premium Service, and you had to pay $$$ for that).

Now, if Turbine does have a way to track what Tomes you ate and at what level, then simply set a ML on each Tome to the Level the Tome was previously eaten at. This may be a problem if you ate a +1 and a +2 Tome in the same stat... but if they can track it, then you get both a +1 and a +2. Otherwise, you get a +2.

One item of contention may be 4a - Setting the Tomes to have a ML. This is an attempt to prevent +2 or +3 Tomes from unfairly adding to INT for skill points (As rolling an Odd INT and taking a Tome @ 1 to get more skill points is a common practice, we don't want to lock that out), or qualifying for feats too early. I chose L9 & L12 because +2 Tomes start appearing as Raid Loot in the Dragon (L10 quest) and the Titan (L12 Quest), but most players start running the Dragon around Level 9, and the Marilith & Stormreaver around Level 12. Yes, I know many do it earlier, or later, but I think that is a "Fair" middle-ground level selection. It is also chosen as L9 & L12 are the "Standard Feat" levels, and this would prevent gaining access to Feats that you would not have been able to access normally. Additionally, +2 Tomes are obtained through 1750 Favor with is usually obtained WELL after Level 9, so I think that helps to offset this.

A 3-month timer will keep the Respeccing to a "Sane" amount, and setting it as a Premium Service will make Turbine a little $$, and make sure that players who Respec do so with greater care.

I think it would be a great idea, except for charging player extra to do so.

[krud]

I think it would be a great idea, except for charging player extra to do so.

The only reason I would charge is to make it accessible to those casual players that can never earn the in-game expense of a respec, yet probably could use a respec the most. Levels the field as far as a full respec is concerned.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

I think that the Paladin Aura change, Evasion Change/Fix, Batman Nerf, etc, are all very GOOD reasons for allowing a Class Respec. Also, look at how effective Battle Clerics used to be in the game, vs. how they aren't now (I know there are some who still argue for Battle Clerics, but being honest, they are not as powerful and useful as they used to be)... would allowing a 13/1 Battle Cleric respec into 14 Cleric be so bad? I personally don't want to lose my Tomes and Raid Loot and Favor, and that is why I haven't Rerolled him... But I would be ALL for paying $10-$20 to to a complete respec like I listed above.

As for the ML on Tomes, it was a suggestion to try to find a middle ground to not find ways to abuse the system. It isn't really required, and that's why I listed it is an "Optional".... the main point of my original post was the idea of performing a Tome Strip, which I had not seen suggested elsewhere (if someone else posted it, I didn't see it), as a way to make sure a Respec would remain as Fair as possible. And here's the thing, if you are one of the lucky few who had an unbound +2 Tome at character creation, then you would have to think long and hard about the Respec if the ML's were introduced. Personally, I think +2 Tomes having no ML in the game is a bit silly, but that's the decision that Turbine made.

My attempt was to present the most fair and balanced method for everyone. Any system for a Respec will have some flaws (specifically around Tomes and Skill Points or Feats), and I was trying to present what I thought could be the most balanced, overall, way to do it. No matter how they institute a Respec, unless they can figure out when you took your Tomes, there isn't any 100% manner to Respec that will ensure that players don't get more or fewer skill points... but adding "Reasonable" ML's to the +2 and +3 Tomes (ML8/9 for +2, ML12/13/14 for +3) would be the most balanced that I have been able to come up with.

If you don't like the idea, then suggest a more fair method... don't nitpick and complain. Be constructive!

[Kalten_of_Amber]

After seeing all the flack your catching about this, I'm sure glad you left me as the anonymous "guildmate" that helped you work out the details....ah darn it!

[Kalten_of_Amber]

IMO, the purpose of a respect is to allow you to adapt to changes made to the game.

Remember that Human rogue that loved Human Versitility?
Remember when they changed Aura of Good base from 2 to 1?
Remember the change they made to Halfling luck?

There are a few examples of changes made to a race or class that gives you a reason to start over, but you don't because of the loos of bound gear.

QFT

For those of us that started this game at the beginning, and have been loyal customers throughout, a lot of us have built and invested enormous amounts of time into their characters. Personally, my main didn't pull his SoS until the 20th run. I do not want to go through that again. This is also a very different game than when a lot of characters were first rolled, and for the most part, I think a lot of characters can no longer do or perform like they either used to/could with the proper setup according to the rules as they stand now. That's what this really boils down to, allowing players to adjuster their characters to the basic gameplay changes made by Turbine for whatever reason. I'm not going to argue whether they were good or bad changes, but they all affected gameplay. I can't say how many times I've been in a PUG and someone mentions a new change, and someone else will immediately say, "Yeah, I wish I would have known about that 6 months ago, I would have never rolled up XX character like I did."

[Kargon]

As far as Kargon can tell, this are a Stat and Skill Point respec, along with a free full feat respec, which pulls out eaten tomes and binds them. Also, it cost real money.

To Kargon this not a Total Respec, just a Stat and Skill Point respec, as Total imply ability to change classes. If kargon are missing some other feature this respec please point out for Kargon.

p.s. To Kargon a Total Respec resets xp to 0 (no changing from 14 fighter to 14 cleric instantly and getting parties killed), and allows charactermermer to choose new classes as levels up again. Kargon still lean towards resetting favor for a total respec too, but can see argumaments both ways.

p.p.s. Kargon have nothing against this idea (except maybe the real money part), especially if can be implemented much quicker than a full Total Respec, but of course kargon ideally want the WHOLE tasty ham.

[Dexxaan]

I have continuosly sensed an attitude of "we deserve" from those in favor of the Total Respec. To top it off you have a whole lot of demanding twits who not only want the DEV time for a correction in their builds (Some are justified I agree.....some) but also start jumping and whining when a helpful soul like Dworkin suggests there be a cost attached.

I say, IF (and please don't make this reality Turbine) this ever comes to happen Please make it expensive, or I may just turn my Battle-Cleric into a Bard/Wizard/Barbarian Combo! (And I'll need a new haircut to go with it).

C'mon people lets get Turbine to focus on new content, Races, Classes, Enhancements and Feats.....NOT error correction and FREE?

[QuantumFX]

Dworkin: So far I like the overall idea. Very well written post. The only drawback is the classic INT tome issue needs to be addressed in your outline. What to do about a character that took the +2 favor tome in INT and later won a +3 INT tome. (The ML's do a fine job but you would want to specify that the +2 tome goes away.)