Total Respec - A Truely Fair Method

[Invalid_86]

If you add ML to tomes, then you need to add ML to all current tomes.

It should have been that way all along, and it should be a relatively high ML.

[redoubt]

The "Fair" way to complete a DDO Respec.

Guidelines
#1) The Total Respec should be a DDO Premium Service. $10 or $20 USD to purchase. Unsure, as I generally don't like the ability to buy your way to a better character.
#2) The Total Respec should have a 3-month timer per character. Agree
#3) The Total Respec will allow conversion of a 28-point character to a 32-point character. Agree
#4) The Total Respec will NOT allow changing of Name, Race or Appearance. No name Change, No race change, minor appearance change.
#5) The Total Respec will leave Favor, Items, and XP Intact. Keep items. Maybe favor. Zero XP please.

-I think it is fair to re-earn the xp if you are getting to change stuff around.
-Maybe break tomes down into pieces. If someone has a +3 inheirent bonus, put in a bound +1, +2, +3 tome of that stat.
-Some minor class changes, not able to go completely different.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Dworkin: So far I like the overall idea. Very well written post. The only drawback is the classic INT tome issue needs to be addressed in your outline. What to do about a character that took the +2 favor tome in INT and later won a +3 INT tome. (The ML's do a fine job but you would want to specify that the +2 tome goes away.)

Yes, the crux of the issue is really all around INT Tomes. I don't think many people are worried if some people could take Dodge or Power Attack or Combat Expertise few levels earlier than they did/could originally... but yes, the people who ate more than one Tome in the same stat, that does present a problem, that cannot easily be solved. Take the worst-case scenario: Someone eats a +1 INT Tome at Level 1, to bring their INT to an even number, then puts L4 stat into INT, then gets really lucky, and gets a +2 INT Tome around L7, and now is at another even number (hence, more skill points), then gets a +3 INT tome around L12 or so... this is the worst-case scenario for and Full Respec system, as Turbine has stated they don't have any method to track when you ate which tomes (let alone a way to know if you ate multiple of the same stat)... and the random unbound +2 INT Tome present the same problem... while they are VERY rare (unbound +2 Tomes), they do exist.

I think there has to be a balance of practical/feasible vs. covering every possible permutation. That is why I suggested stripping the Tomes, and setting ML's on them... Yes, there are a few people who could end up with a little fewer Skill Points... but there are also many others who could end up with more Skill Points than they currently have (imagine someone who ate a +1 INT Tome at L12... respecs to an Odd INT, and eats that +1 INT Tome at Level 1... they just got +15 skill points... So it can go either way... and some will come out ahead, and some will come out behind... but I still think it is the most fair way to do things, and those who might lose skill points may not want to use the Respec.

There is no perfect answer... but I think this is as close as we can get.

[krud]

Yes, applying ML to tomes as you described is a good middle ground, some may loose a little, some may gain a little, but no one will ever be able gain more than someone who rerolls a new character. Once +3 tomes start to drop unbound this will no longer be an issue. Breaking up inherent bonuses into +1, +2, +3 tomes is also a good approach.

[Riorik]

I think that if you're going to do a 'total respec' it should be total - that includes everything - Class, Race, Alignment, everything without exception. I even agree with the idea of paying extra for it - of course, that might be a bit selfish since I'm one of those late 30's professionals who look at $20 as a minor expense that doesn't have anything to do with whether I pay my mortgage, car, etc.

I get the point of the Tome ML's - I'd be much more in favor of multiple bound tomes dropping - if you have +3 eaten, then you get three, a +1, +2 & +3 as others have posted. The exact ML doesn't matter much but most of the proposals are in the ballpark - I consider it a minor detail that isn't a dealbreaker by any means.

What I don't get is - why anybody would oppose it at all? It's a bit like - how does this detract from your own gaming experience? There are things and situations where it's good to impose your morals and values on others...when it impacts others...a common example are criminal acts - even exploiting/cheating affects the remaining community because it tends to result in game changes that may or may not impact others. However, on an issue such as this, it doesn't quite meet that threshold of acceptability. It's a bit like explaining to your wife that she's going to do something the way you tell her to and she's going to have to like it. Think about how successful that line usually is...

Also, arguments of sucking up development time just seems false - charging for the service by it's nature promotes the retention of additional programmers to do the work (yeah, it's probably one of the core 3 or 4 programmers doing it, but there might be other loaned help in other areas given to the game...perhaps another customer service GM, who knows...) - AND, as a programmer myself, it strikes me as rather easy to do. The why is simple - most of the mechanics to do this are already in place...they should be able to use existing code (aka, the trainers/levelers) to let the characters level. I'd guess a function/procedure that branches out to build objects (the tomes) - stores them temporarily, access the existing character generation screens & lets you complete it, then adds the tomes to inventory, would be extremely simple to code, test and debug. This is not a huge task.

The real issue is, do they want to do it - because of what they want players to do - it's all about the grind. I'm not trying to be negative or complain, just stating the obvious. It's not really in the best interest of Turbine as a whole to make it easier for you to swap out your entire character rather than make you re-level and re-acquire everything...if only for all the other players...the act of you levelling provides new players somebody to group with.

Nax

[dragnmoon]

C'mon people lets get Turbine to focus on new content, Races, Classes, Enhancements and Feats.....NOT error correction and FREE?

And this is something I totally agree with and comment on in every Respec Post...

Adding a deeper Respec to the game should be at the buttom of the Devs to do list. They need to focus on New content, adding all the player handbook and eberron races and classes and bring the game to level 20 before they even put any time into a deeper respec system.

Once we get to that point we can see the full impact of the changes to the game so we will have a better idea on what we can do with characters.

[krud]

And this is something I totally agree with and comment on in every Respec Post...

Adding a deeper Respec to the game should be at the buttom of the Devs to do list. They need to focus on New content, adding all the player handbook and eberron races and classes and bring the game to level 20 before they even put any time into a deeper respec system.

Once we get to that point we can see the full impact of the changes to the game so we will have a better idea on what we can do with characters.

But all those unhappy people with their characters ... <err> ...people with their unhappy characters ...<no wait, it's> ... people unhappy with their characters will have to wait 1 year and 6 more levels in order to become unhappy. That's why some are advocating only skill and attribute respecs. Probably much simpler to implement and will appease a lot of those who are demanding a respec.

[Fallout]

I think that if you're going to do a 'total respec' it should be total - that includes everything - Class, Race, Alignment, everything without exception. I even agree with the idea of paying extra for it - of course, that might be a bit selfish since I'm one of those late 30's professionals who look at $20 as a minor expense that doesn't have anything to do with whether I pay my mortgage, car, etc.

What I don't get is - why anybody would oppose it at all? It's a bit like - how does this detract from your own gaming experience?

Also, arguments of sucking up development time just seems false - charging for the service by it's nature promotes the retention of additional programmers to do the work

The real issue is, do they want to do it - because of what they want players to do - it's all about the grind. I'm not trying to be negative or complain, just stating the obvious.

Nax

Thats pretty summarizes what I think.

>I even agree with the idea of paying extra for it - of course, that might be a bit selfish since I'm one of those late 30's professionals who look at $20 as a minor expense that doesn't have anything to do with whether I pay my mortgage, car, etc.
>Also, arguments of sucking up development time just seems false - charging for the service by it's nature promotes the retention of additional programmers to do the work

Also since alot of PnP players, I bet a good portion of the demographics are older. Which means jobs/family etc less time to play. But more disposable income. They would be more likely to pay a small reasonable fee for services. Why people would pay? Its very evident with the plat farmers. Adding a premium service makes it worth the developer and Turnbine's fee.

>What I don't get is - why anybody would oppose it at all? It's a bit like - how does this detract from your own gaming experience?

The main arguement is twinking. I don't see it more then a problem then it is now. With ML restrictions will negate favor restrictions. People who twink wil continue to do so. Respec won't change things.

>The real issue is, do they want to do it - because of what they want players to do - it's all about the grind. I'm not trying to be negative or complain, just stating the obvious.

Definately. Favor is a grind. If its fun, people would do it for fun.

I think of respec this way. Some games when you beat it, allows you to unlock items, or play through the game again with new items/characters with some advantage. Its like a new start, but not. It adds replay value without all the boring grind. If I remeber the early comments, Turbine didn't want to make this a 'grind' game. But for time sink they did that anyway.

[dragnmoon]

But all those unhappy people with their characters ... <err> ...people with their unhappy characters ...<no wait, it's> ... people unhappy with their characters will have to wait 1 year and 6 more levels in order to become unhappy. That's why some are advocating only skill and attribute respecs. Probably much simpler to implement and will appease a lot of those who are demanding a respec.

So you would rather they Hold up on adding Content, Classes, races and level 20 to add this? Because that is what it would take. The biggest problem with this game and the largest complaint is lack of content and not all the races and classes added to the game. Them taking time to add a respec that is not really needed at this time (I am not going to go in why it is not really needed again, look at my other posts) in the game would slow that down and Upset a Much larger population then the population that want a respec ASAP.

I am confident that more people want Content, Classes, races and level 20, based on the history of the forums and the complaints we get after every mod.

I am not saying they should not add a deeper Respec in the future, all i am saying they have other priorities that are more important then this.

[Aspenor]

I'd rather see a full character respec, at no real monetary cost except maybe in PP.

Many people have made mistakes that they'd like to take back, and many skills and abilities have changed from when they were originally used in builds.

[Fallout]

They seriously need to add new classes, prestige and races before adding new content.

At least with those, you can run existing content. With different combination of new classes/prestige and races, it keep people occupied longer then new content. Please, no more Necro-type quests.

[Serpent]

As per all these threads including my own, Kargon's response make the most sense out of everyone. Which is scary.

[krud]

So you would rather they Hold up on adding Content, Classes, races and level 20 to add this? Because that is what it would take. The biggest problem with this game and the largest complaint is lack of content and not all the races and classes added to the game. Them taking time to add a respec that is not really needed at this time (I am not going to go in why it is not really needed again, look at my other posts) in the game would slow that down and Upset a Much larger population then the population that want a respec ASAP.

I am confident that more people want Content, Classes, races and level 20, based on the history of the forums and the complaints we get after every mod.

I am not saying they should not add a deeper Respec in the future, all i am saying they have other priorities that are more important then this.

I must have forgot to add the <sarcasm> icon to my post. My position has always been content first. All i'm saying is if someone wants to see anything regarding any kind of respec anytime soon, the simpler it is to code (such as a skill/attribute respec), the more chance it has to be implemented sooner. Want that full respec? most assuredly you will have to wait till all the other stuff you mentioned gets added first. Want to "fix" just a little bit of your character? It can happen sooner. Which of these do the pro-speccers want? Most will settle for a little bit and sooner, but a few vocal ones keep demanding it all, and demanding it now. They seem to believe that turbine can do both at the same time. wishful thinking.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

They seriously need to add new classes, prestige and races before adding new content.

At least with those, you can run existing content. With different combination of new classes/prestige and races, it keep people occupied longer then new content. Please, no more Necro-type quests.

No way, I want to get my existing group of chars to level 20, content first!

[glug]

I agree with this, and would have no problem with people being able to respec characters for money.

I'd be *very* happy if a skill respec went in, much like the feat and enhancement ones are. I really wish I could change out how I picked all of my skills before I understood how they translated into game play.

Also, whoever commented that a respec should reset xp to 0 should roll an alt and go, "oh!"

[CSFurious]

but, i do not believe that anything discussed in this thread will ever be developed for this game

the bread & butter of this game right now after looting is re-rolls and/or multiple characters

& then, Turbine needs to program this & it cannot even raise the level cap by more than 4 levels within weeks of the 2nd anniversary

sorry, it will be 2012 before this happens

[Cireeric]

I think that if you're going to do a 'total respec' it should be total - that includes everything - Class, Race, Alignment, everything without exception. I even agree with the idea of paying extra for it - of course, that might be a bit selfish since I'm one of those late 30's professionals who look at $20 as a minor expense that doesn't have anything to do with whether I pay my mortgage, car, etc.

I get the point of the Tome ML's - I'd be much more in favor of multiple bound tomes dropping - if you have +3 eaten, then you get three, a +1, +2 & +3 as others have posted. The exact ML doesn't matter much but most of the proposals are in the ballpark - I consider it a minor detail that isn't a dealbreaker by any means.

What I don't get is - why anybody would oppose it at all? It's a bit like - how does this detract from your own gaming experience? There are things and situations where it's good to impose your morals and values on others...when it impacts others...a common example are criminal acts - even exploiting/cheating affects the remaining community because it tends to result in game changes that may or may not impact others. However, on an issue such as this, it doesn't quite meet that threshold of acceptability. It's a bit like explaining to your wife that she's going to do something the way you tell her to and she's going to have to like it. Think about how successful that line usually is...

Also, arguments of sucking up development time just seems false - charging for the service by it's nature promotes the retention of additional programmers to do the work (yeah, it's probably one of the core 3 or 4 programmers doing it, but there might be other loaned help in other areas given to the game...perhaps another customer service GM, who knows...) - AND, as a programmer myself, it strikes me as rather easy to do. The why is simple - most of the mechanics to do this are already in place...they should be able to use existing code (aka, the trainers/levelers) to let the characters level. I'd guess a function/procedure that branches out to build objects (the tomes) - stores them temporarily, access the existing character generation screens & lets you complete it, then adds the tomes to inventory, would be extremely simple to code, test and debug. This is not a huge task.

The real issue is, do they want to do it - because of what they want players to do - it's all about the grind. I'm not trying to be negative or complain, just stating the obvious. It's not really in the best interest of Turbine as a whole to make it easier for you to swap out your entire character rather than make you re-level and re-acquire everything...if only for all the other players...the act of you levelling provides new players somebody to group with.

Nax

How can a respec change a characters race?

When it is said "I think that if you're going to do a 'total respec' it should be total - that includes everything - Class, Race, Alignment, everything without exception.", it sounds like you want a totally different character with the benefits of tomes gained by another character. Reincarnation?

Sorry, I just do not agree with respec, of any type, especially if it entails a payment of real money.

The way I would like to see it done would be, skills only respec. All tomes would be applied to a character at the level originally used.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

How can a respec change a characters race?

When it is said "I think that if you're going to do a 'total respec' it should be total - that includes everything - Class, Race, Alignment, everything without exception.", it sounds like you want a totally different character with the benefits of tomes gained by another character. Reincarnation?

Sorry, I just do not agree with respec, of any type, especially if it entails a payment of real money.

The way I would like to see it done would be, skills only respec. All tomes would be applied to a character at the level originally used.

The Devs have already posted that they do not have a mechanism for tracking what levels a character ate tomes. So given this, I was trying to come up with the most fair possible way of doing things. And I never suggested changing Race or Name as part of this. Appearance, Class, Alignment, Feats, Skills yes.

There are good reasons for allowing Alignment - When the game first came out (Pre-Order), there was no real reason to go with any of the Alignments (Stability existed, but no one had seen a "of Pure Good" weapon, or knew Greater Stability would be added, etc. So many Pre-Order Players made characters with Alignments based on PnP Experience (myself included).

As for Appearance - Why not allow people change Appearance of their character.

Class - Again, with some of the FUNDAMENTAL changes to the game that have happened (Evasion, Balance, Enhancement System, Uselessness of AC at higher levels, etc) there are certainly GOOD reasons for allowing class changes. For example, in the early Level-10 Cap days, Battle Clerics were not only highly effective, they often could lead the kills for the entire party (I know, Dworkin used to out kill everyone back in the day)... but given the fundamental changes in the game since then, the 13/1 Battle Cleric cannot be the party healer and frontline fighter anymore... so the ability to revert to a standard Caster Cleric, or rebuild into a Cleric-splashed fighter for self-buffing... thus allowing these characters to become useful again. And then again, there is the Enhancement Nerf that destroyed a million Batman builds... the list goes on and on.

Feats - We already can do this 1 at a time, but if you want to take out a chain (like TWF-ITWF-STWF, or Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack) it takes a *LOT* of Plat & Dragonshards. Allow a method to do it all at once.

Skills - This is the primary reason for the Respec. But let a Respec be a RESPEC... complete and total

[rimble]

That is a well thought out idea.

Would new classes be restricted from this service for six months or so upon their initial release? You'd have a bunch of level 16 Monks spring up everywhere otherwise. Sure, that's not the end of the world, but a nice shiny new class should play up through the levels in my opinion.

I think a full class respec would get too hairy and too manipulative anyways. Level up as a Fighter or whatever because it's easy then respec to a Wizard without going through those early painful levels, stuff like that. I think it would be most true to just make you level up in the same class order as you originally did, or MAYBE let you shuffle your levels around. So if this were implemented soon, you could take your level 14 Paladin, take 2 levels of Rogue when the cap goes up to 16, then respec and take Rogue at level 1 and 9 or whatever...but really I'd be against implementing that.

My general idea in regards to respecs is to be able to retool my character slightly because of either very poor decisions I made or because of completely unanticipated changes that were really detrimental to my build, not switch him over to something completely unrelated to his original concept.

If you're playing a Paladin and want to make a Wizard, then start a Wizard from level 1, but it'd be nice to be able to fix your screwed up high-level Paladin (oh boy is mine screwed up).

[Fallout]

How can a respec change a characters race?

When it is said "I think that if you're going to do a 'total respec' it should be total - that includes everything - Class, Race, Alignment, everything without exception.", it sounds like you want a totally different character with the benefits of tomes gained by another character. Reincarnation?

Sorry, I just do not agree with respec, of any type, especially if it entails a payment of real money.

The way I would like to see it done would be, skills only respec. All tomes would be applied to a character at the level originally used.

Star Wars Galaxies did that, their whole character system was based on that. Drop class skills, pick up new ones. One week could be dancer, next week could be carbineer.

It seems alot of PnP players cannot grasp or accept that a character with same name could be different class. The twinking arguement is moot, it already exist, and not going to change.

Also gives chance to fix 28 pt build characters into 32 pt builds, and un-retire other characters.