Possibilities for Rogue love in the future?

[Aesop]

so it isnt a real spell then since the gods know most of the cleric spells there are not implemented here.

Nimbus
Recitation
Cometfall
Diefic Vengence
Mass Spell Resistance (I think that's in isn't it?)

that's just the Cleric ones and ...

personally I'd like to see Briar Web
the Visage of the Diety Line and
the Vigor Lines brought in


Aesop

Aesop

[QuantumFX]

Touche, but you're forgetting two things:
1. Shadowdancer is a prestige class, and not yet available (I take it in PnP myself for the bonuses.)
2. Camouflage spell is good, true, but a good UMD means Rogues can use it in scroll form.

Still, you make a very good point. Thank you.

Yeah different versions of Camoflauge. And Hide in Plain Sight is the super ability. (A "Way of the Shadowdancer" would be so sweet.)

While true that Rogues are weaker at some things, what are you expecting? Rogues aren't MEANT to be primary combatants or meat shields. Keep in mind the other items I mentioned. If a Rogue could pick pockets, combat ability wouldn't be quite as important if he could sneak up and steal the required item from the bad guy undetected. Also, I did mention (somewhere) that I think sneak attack damage needs tweaking too. If sneak attack damage could be modified decently to give the potential "quick kill" ability possible in PnP, you'd have a serious boost in Rogue combat ability.

My rant was mainly on the fact that the skill enhancements are too expensive as is. I think there should be plenty of Action Points left over for things like subtle backstabber, Sneak Attack, racial bonuses and "Way of" chains. Every time I fire up Ron's character generator to roll up a rogue I close it disappoined that I couldn't fufill my goals.

W-R-O-N-G

Apologies, but the reason people zerg traps is because THEY CAN SURVIVE THEM. Let's face it, look at the available buffs and protections available, either as spell, scroll, or potion:

Stoneskin
Pro element
Res element
Pro poison
Haste
Jump
Stat buffs (especially Dex and Con)
Damage reduction

There are more, I just can't think of them at the moment.

I've logged plenty of hours playing fighters, and the only reason I ever zerged a trap was because I had protection and/or I had the HP to make it out the other side. If traps could REALLY mess you up (not likely since there's always some kind of healing around), I doubt people would have any problem twiddling their thumbs for the whole 6 or 7 seconds it takes for the Rogue to work his voodoo on the trap box.

I know my ranger has ran through stuff because the rogue was taking his sweet time figuring out where he left all his stuff. (And I play trapmonkeys. )

[SableShadow]

BTW, Sable, i've been dual wielding that acid rapier you gave me along side my Treason, and i gotta say, two +5 deception weapons are awesome

You're welcome; I knew you'd be a good home for her!

What rogue's need *most* are agro management tools or other sneak attack vectors, not more damage.

The damage is in the class levels, like a caster.

Personally, I think the changes to diplo, 'of Deception', the creation of the Subtle Backstabber enhancement, and agro reducting items (so far all raid l00t, I think) have gone a looooong way to buffing the class. Turbine is on the right track here (they weren't back in Mod 2ish when we first got the sneak attack acc and dmg enhancements).

I think the balance is just about right at this point...oh, a few more things are in order, like maybe a 'damage undead/elementals/constructs' enhancement of some kind, a tweak to the 'Way of' enhancements (duration of the envenom and Showtime buffs), and a bluff/improved feint that lasts a few seconds instead of just the first hit....but I think they're getting close.

[Andalain]

The only thing rogues have in common with one another is that they're all different. Some are stealthy thieves. Others are silver-tongued tricksters. Still others are scouts, infiltrators, spies, diplomats, or thugs. What they do share is versatility, adaptability, and resourcefulness. In general, rogues are skilled at getting what others don't want them to get: entrance into a locked treasure vault, safe passage past a deadly trap, secret battle plans, or the trust of a guard.

How many times are we given the chance to smooth talk guards? Entrance into a locked treasure vault is fine and good, but does no purpose if the chest wont open until the guard dies. Safe passage past a deadly trap... well, later on when we got traps with no boxes or turn offs... that doesn't work. Diplomacy in conversations should be an option on nearly every humanoid or "free-thinking" mob... just what I think... oh and EVERY quest should be able to be completed without drawing a weapon as a skilled enough rogue. Interesting thought, Bring me the Head of Ghola Fan... convince his guards to kill him for you.

[CDevil]

How many times are we given the chance to smooth talk guards?

Just one, if you count the guy in the final stages of Delera's tomb.

Entrance into a locked treasure vault is fine and good, but does no purpose if the chest wont open until the guard dies.

Let's not forget the doors that won't open until a particular creature dies.

Safe passage past a deadly trap... well, later on when we got traps with no boxes or turn offs... that doesn't work.

I just hope they don't nerf evasion.

Diplomacy in conversations should be an option on nearly every humanoid or "free-thinking" mob.

I don't know about every one, but it definitely SHOULD be more prevalent in conversations with NPCs.

EVERY quest should be able to be completed without drawing a weapon as a skilled enough rogue.

Absolutely NOT. Some quests, a creature simply needs killing. There should be LOTS more quests with a stealth or bluff option for success, but some times you've just GOT to get your blades bloody.

Thank you for your inputs, though.

Keep the ideas coming, guys!!! ROGUE LOVE!!!!!!!!

[MysticTheurge]

Just one, if you count the guy in the final stages of Delera's tomb.

Hey! And the guys in PotP!

[Andalain]

Ok yeah... not every quest... but still you get the idea. More quests should be possible to stealth through. PoP you can talk to that guy, but as lawful, right? Also on Von2 you can use diplomacy to get the guy to open the door, but still lots of Mephits, Von1 is it with the drow guy there... I think you can do something with diplomacy there too.

Requiring killing before a door opens just simply negates a rogues skills. I want to sneak in and rob the place not slaughter everyone. No one should even know that I was there

[MysticTheurge]

PoP you can talk to that guy, but as lawful, right?

I meant the Rakshasa with the key.

I think that "encounter" is pretty close to the ideal they should be working towards. There are a wide variety of solutions:

A) Fight the Rakshasa and it's companions, kill them, get the key.
B) Use Open Lock to pick the lock on the door. Don't even need the key.
C) Use one of the social skills (Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate) to talk the key out of him.

[Mercules]

I meant the Rakshasa with the key.

I think that "encounter" is pretty close to the ideal they should be working towards. There are a wide variety of solutions:

A) Fight the Rakshasa and it's companions, kill them, get the key.
B) Use Open Lock to pick the lock on the door. Don't even need the key.
C) Use one of the social skills (Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate) to talk the key out of him.

Yep... I love that.

Wizard: I'll go back and Diplo the guys to get the key.
Me: I've already unlocked the door.
Wizard: Oh... I forgot we had a Rogue.

If we don't have either skill, we just beat it out of them.

[SableShadow]

How many times are we given the chance to smooth talk guards? Entrance into a locked treasure vault is fine and good, but does no purpose if the chest wont open until the guard dies. Safe passage past a deadly trap... well, later on when we got traps with no boxes or turn offs... that doesn't work. Diplomacy in conversations should be an option on nearly every humanoid or "free-thinking" mob... just what I think... oh and EVERY quest should be able to be completed without drawing a weapon as a skilled enough rogue. Interesting thought, Bring me the Head of Ghola Fan... convince his guards to kill him for you.

I wouldn't say every quest; there are a few quests that do modify encounters based on bluff/diplo/intimidate already (maybe 10% of the current quest total? and at least one or two in each major mod?); the number of quests you can do this in seems to be going up with each mod, so I think we'll see more of it in the future.

- Von 1 (fight manager; bluff; skip a combat)

- Von 2 (giant; bluff; skip a combat)

- Freehold (pre-Titan quest giver; diplo; reduce or eliminate fee to get the quest. Uses haggle, too!)

- Relic of a Sovereign Past (end boss; intim/bluff/diplo; change # of available chests...maybe skip a combat? No one wants me to try the diplo, so I don't know what it does, scared of losing a chest )

- Chains of Flame (cook; diplo; skip a combat)

- Crucible (multiple; diplo/intim; easier combat, opens up a stealth option at the end of the swim) <-- Best model for social skills modifying a quest so far!

- PoP (guards; diplo; get a key...only useful if you can't pick the lock)

I know there are more I can't think of off the top of my head, but the devs seems to want to do this already...making non-combat and semi-combat skills useful in quest completion.

[Andalain]

True, I'm addicted to diplomacy and use it whenever I get a chance but I sometimes fail, usually when the quest if 4 or 5 levels above me. I'm glad more quests are starting to use these skills, but I still think it's not enough. I think all doors should be able to be picked and pretty much any enemy a chance to have dialogue with. Sneak up and talk before they go aggro. Sneaking up and finally that nasty looking Bugbear asks "Who are you? What are you doing here?" (Bluff) " Your boss sent me here to check on a few things and make sure everything is in order."
(Diplomacy) "Oh don't mind me, your time would be better spent watching for intruders than talking to me."
(Intimidate) "If you ask me another question I'll bash your head against that wall."

Sorry, I just threw some bad examples in there, but you get the idea, I hope. The option isn't available enough.

[CDevil]

Ok yeah... not every quest... but still you get the idea. More quests should be possible to stealth through... Requiring killing before a door opens just simply negates a rogues skills. I want to sneak in and rob the place not slaughter everyone. No one should even know that I was there

Agreed, there should be more quests like this, or at least more options for this kind of action in upcoming quests.

Keep the ideas coming, guys!

Don't let this thread die!!!

ROGUE LOVE!!!!!

[SableShadow]

I'd like to get some of the 'denied dex' bugs fixed, so when a monster is tripped/webbed/flanked we get sneak attack.