Possibilities for Rogue love in the future?

[ArkoHighStar]

edit oops wrong thread

[esoitl]

don't just limit things to rogue skills

one thing i find this game lacking is some of the great skills in P&P that just aren't here and thus give casters a meager two class skills only one of which is really useful
i love the diplomacy/intimidate/bluff checks that need to be made in certain areas but would like to see a little more of it

some skills like read magic, decipher script, disguise, forgery, and even the knowledges could all be implemented and make the feel of the game a bit closer to P&P and more D&Dish than being a completely dependant environment that can at times rely more on gear than thought
more uses for spot would be nice as well, say adding random popping secrets in quests....

before that last one gets flamed at just think, have a quest with say 5-10 extras in it, maybe a few traps, a SD here or there, maybe a book encrypted in blotched writing that one of these skills could open for something extra

i can't imagine it'd be that hard to program a random spawn of something like this as the random named would work the same



climb and rope use would be stellar to see but that introduces a lot of dev headaches with the already made and possibly breakable quests, i don't imagine putting a few extra spawns in the exisiting dungeons would be impossible and it wouldn't have to be done all at once either

[GuitarHero]

Well, my point was that I didn't want a 13 ftr/1 rog to be able to climb up on the ceiling and activate the switch in a rogue lever (perhaps something like a trap box) 14-16 quest or pick the pocket of a CR 18 boss, but maybe they could pull it off in a level 1-9 quest. I just think that bypassing the kill monster x open door y thing should require however let's say bards and rangers get this as a class skill (I haven't played PnP since before 3.0 so I have no idea) then they would have no problem. I am not saying that this should be as difficult as the cabal trap but it would seem appropriate to make sure that the toon has to sacrifice something else significant in order to get access to this ability.

there's the rub...

Climb is a fighter class skill as well, poor example.

I play a pure rogue, no multiclassing for me, but i see these trapsmith splashes that want to do the probably least entertaining of my responsibilities, and sacrificing so much of their other abilities to do so, and don't see a problem with it. If someone wants to make that sacrifice, we shouldn't be the ones to say they aren't allowed. Honestly, people that are calling for a reworking of traps, especially rogues doing so, are advocating making the least fun thing about a rogue become more important. You want to make my rogue even more enjoyable, fix stealth, (even if you think its "working as intended," the way its intended bites) remove that pesky cap on jump, give me my rogue special abilities (which are coming soon, thank god) and scale sneak attack up with the inflated hitpoints of the mobs. A line allowing sneak attacks on constructs and undead, even if its a reduced amount, would also take a lot of the sting out of Mod 5 for rogues.

[MysticTheurge]

What needs to be added to rogues in my opinion is a way through enhancement buys to crit constructs and undead.... just my opinion (and no I dont really play a rogue, not seriously anyways.)

Not just enhancements, multiple methods to do it.

There should be enhancements, weapon enchantments, and spells. At the very least.

[WeaselKing]

there's the rub...

Climb is a fighter class skill as well, poor example.

I play a pure rogue, no multiclassing for me, but i see these trapsmith splashes that want to do the probably least entertaining of my responsibilities, and sacrificing so much of their other abilities to do so, and don't see a problem with it. If someone wants to make that sacrifice, we shouldn't be the ones to say they aren't allowed. Honestly, people that are calling for a reworking of traps, especially rogues doing so, are advocating making the least fun thing about a rogue become more important. You want to make my rogue even more enjoyable, fix stealth, (even if you think its "working as intended," the way its intended bites) remove that pesky cap on jump, give me my rogue special abilities (which are coming soon, thank god) and scale sneak attack up with the inflated hitpoints of the mobs. A line allowing sneak attacks on constructs and undead, even if its a reduced amount, would also take a lot of the sting out of Mod 5 for rogues.

Touche, even what little I remember of skills from 2.5(?) has failed me. I think you see what I was attempting to say about about cross class splashing not helping out too much. Really that part was probably me being too long winded (as often happens when I write train of thought like I am now). Anyway if they were to implement a way for rogues to bypass kill monsters x and open door y stuff, I was hoping for a broad spectrum of rogue skills to come into play. For instance use move silently and hide to sneak into an area, use search to locate a trap box like switch to open door, use climb to get there and use disable device to open door or sneak (ms and hide again), search a mob for the guy with the key and use pickpocket to get it. Obviously these would require some changes in coding especially in stealth. It might also require changes in patience for zerging fighters but it would simply another option not the only one (except perhaps for some optional objectives/chests).

PS: Feel free to correct me on any DnD rules my PnP experience was unfortunately limited and I certainly never DM'd.

[Strykersz]

Give them an enhancement line that allows some sneak attack damage(or a chance for full, or a chance for some) on monsters that are immune to sneak attack damage. 1d6/enhancement(or the equivalent) up to 3d6 at level 14(4d6 at 16). The numbers themselves can be adjusted for balance.

[Cowdenicus]

Give them an enhancement line that allows some sneak attack damage(or a chance for full, or a chance for some) on monsters that are immune to sneak attack damage. 1d6/enhancement(or the equivalent) up to 3d6 at level 14(4d6 at 16). The numbers themselves can be adjusted for balance.

As I recall, the only creatures you cant do sneak attack to are ones that cant be crit, hence if you can crit them, you can sneak them....

so if we got enhancements in that let you crit undead and constructs........

[Raithe]

Better than at launch yes, working wonderfully not imo. If anything it seems too oversimplified. Do mobs just have a set spot? Do they gain a bonus if they are actively searching?

A dev (Eladrin) explained that mobs get increasing bonuses to their spot the longer you are in their field of view. Eventually they will spot anyone, no matter how stealthy they are, if they remain stationary and in view. This makes the best stealth tactics include staying out of view, which I think is right on the mark.

Having just about everything break stealth is a big failing point imo. Openning a door doesnt mean you are comletely exposing yourself, sure a door creaking open a couple inches would cause a mob to actively search but it shouldnt be an auto spot imo.

A permanently closed door that is guarded is a complete deal breaker for stealth in any real scenario that I can imagine.

We need mobs moving through doors, and alternative routes to get to areas of a quest (these alternative routes can be frought with danger, such as incredibly powerful creatures, to make stealth a viable choice). We need scalable walls (that perhaps need a good reflex save to avoid falling if the climb skill isn't implemented) and other aspects of the game that utilize rogue class skills. We also need doors that don't always have mobs behind them. These factors need to be built into realistically designed quests, and shouldn't be relegated as easy-looting tactics for particular classes.

[esoitl]

We need mobs moving through doors, and alternative routes to get to areas of a quest (these alternative routes can be frought with danger, such as incredibly powerful creatures, to make stealth a viable choice). We need scalable walls (that perhaps need a good reflex save to avoid falling if the climb skill isn't implemented) and other aspects of the game that utilize rogue class skills. We also need doors that don't always have mobs behind them. These factors need to be built into realistically designed quests, and shouldn't be relegated as easy-looting tactics for particular classes.

I think this would be a stellar implement
only when they are truly bored would monsters just stand around in one spot waiting for something to happen
it'd also require a bit more tactics than 'lets take out the beholder over here so he doesn't sneak up on us as we take out the trolls over there'

moving monsters would be very nice

[llevenbaxx]

We need mobs moving through doors, and alternative routes to get to areas of a quest (these alternative routes can be frought with danger, such as incredibly powerful creatures, to make stealth a viable choice). We need scalable walls (that perhaps need a good reflex save to avoid falling if the climb skill isn't implemented) and other aspects of the game that utilize rogue class skills. We also need doors that don't always have mobs behind them. These factors need to be built into realistically designed quests, and shouldn't be relegated as easy-looting tactics for particular classes.

Thanks for the clarification.

I agree too. Not every "monster" in a dungeoun would be a sentry, specifically ordered to gaurd door X. They have tasks to get done too. As is there is very little real activity, hiding and then being able to stalk a mob would be a very fun thing to do. Sure doors to rooms holding treasure/valuables/prisoners would all be heavily gaurded, thats what the party is there for. Would be nice to climb a ventilation shaft/chimney/sewage drain as a short cut too. Nice ideas.

[ahpook]

Great ideas. Hopefully this post will get as many responses as the Paladin ones as Rogues certainly need more luvin' than Pallies. If they start implementing the alternate means to complete quest I would also like to see them drop the % XP reward for kills. It too strongly reinforces the notion that the correct method is to kill everything, IMHO. In fact, get rid of the ones for finding doors, disabling traps, and breaking barrels. Put the extra XP into the optionals to make them more worthwhile.

Well, my point was that I didn't want a 13 ftr/1 rog to be able to climb up on the ceiling and activate the switch in a rogue lever (perhaps something like a trap box) 14-16 quest or pick the pocket of a CR 18 boss, but maybe they could pull it off in a level 1-9 quest.

Well a multi-class rogue should be able to do any ONE of those. They likely wouldn't have enough points to do all 3 however. That should be the only differentiation.

[WeaselKing]

Well a multi-class rogue should be able to do any ONE of those. They likely wouldn't have enough points to do all 3 however. That should be the only differentiation.

Exactly!

[SableShadow]

Honestly, people that are calling for a reworking of traps, especially rogues doing so, are advocating making the least fun thing about a rogue become more important.

*Totally* agree here. I would add that reworking traps won't actually *fix* what I see as the core problem: lots of groups out there won't take a rogue on a quest that doesn't have traps, and even if they take one, they take...one. Those quests also seem to be the big and/or choice l00t quests of every release (e.g. Invaders, BAM, Ghosts of Perdition, Reaver's Fate, Titan). Not saying everyone class bashes, and many folks know better, but beefing up the trap aspect has been bad for the class both times Turbine has done it.

You want to make my rogue even more enjoyable, fix stealth, (even if you think its "working as intended," the way its intended bites) remove that pesky cap on jump, give me my rogue special abilities (which are coming soon, thank god) and scale sneak attack up with the inflated hitpoints of the mobs.

I agree, though if they scale up the sneak damage, they'll also need to beef up the agro management tools.

I'd rather see, say, increased time added to the effect of bluff/diplomacy so you can get multiple strikes in under one use of bluff, and an increase in the agro reduction of Subtle Backstabber. The damage is really already there, it's just a matter of making it more accessible to new rogue players. It's a fun, effective class, but often difficult to learn.

A line allowing sneak attacks on constructs and undead, even if its a reduced amount, would also take a lot of the sting out of Mod 5 for rogues.

Totally agree here. It's a very undead heavy game. Heck, even a % of sneak attack that could be applied would be a big plus.

[Aesop]

Ya know that Sneak attack enhancement ... the one that gives a +1 etc damage on Sneak attacks... make that +x per sneak attack die... so at level 13 Rogue with Sneak Attack Damage +2 you'd get 7d6 +14 Sneak Attack Damage

make poisoning a weapon a possibilty... like a clicky that gives us a poison proc. something that we can buy in the "blackmarket" ... ie freelancers favor. Use it and for the next 30sec we have a weapon that has a certain type of poison on it... let us buy the type we want. Make it so we have a chance of poisoning ourselves if ya want... I'm fine with that... as per the rules. Let us buy stacks of poison viles


Let us create traps that we can lead mobs through. New Crafting system might have this as a non magical off shoot.

maybe some other stuff too

Aesop

[CDevil]

What needs to be added to rogues in my opinion is a way through enhancement buys to crit constructs and undead.... just my opinion

Lots of people have been asking for this, actually. Unfortunately (no offense, Cowdenicus) I must disagree. Constructs and undead have ALWAYS been immune to crits - even in PnP - simply by their natures. Neither type of creature has any "vital organs" or "sensitive areas" to be targetted. (The one exception to this - decapitating vampires - is well known and often overlooked.) Besides, there's no way to fairly justify giving such a bonus to Rogues and not other classes.

To be fair, though, I DO think sneak attack damage should be increased, since monsters have such incredibly high amounts of hit points. In PnP, a high-level Rogue has a fairly decent chance of killing a lot of creatures with a single successful sneak attack. In DDO, the chance is pretty much nil due to the amounts of HP these monsters have.

Again, just my 2 coppers' worth.

Thank you for the input, Cowdenicus. Keep the suggestions coming. Maybe the Devs will even read them.

[MysticTheurge]

Constructs and undead have ALWAYS been immune to crits - even in PnP - simply by their natures.

Not for long.

In 4th edition you can Crit zombies.

I'd be surprised if it wasn't a more wide-spread change.

Plus, even in 3.5 there are ways to sneak attack undead and constructs. The Spell Compendium has one spell for each. (And another for Plants.)

[ahpook]

sad.

This thread is already falling off the radar. The pally whine post kept going for pages and pages and days and days. Does anybody believe that Pallies really need more help right now than rogues? Perhaps there is just not enough rogue players left to care?

[Aesop]

sad.

This thread is already falling off the radar. The pally whine post kept going for pages and pages and days and days. Does anybody believe that Pallies really need more help right now than rogues? Perhaps there is just not enough rogue players left to care?

Well add more ideas or critique other peoples

Aesop

[ahpook]

Well add more ideas or critique other peoples

Sage advice.

To start with, improve enhancements.

Rogues get more skill points per level because they are a skill based class. Enhancements subvert this because rogues get the same number of action points and the same expensive skill enhancement cost as every other class. A couple of possibilities,
- double up all skills so that a single enhancement chain will buy Search and Spot, or Move Silent and Hide, or Open Lock and Disable Trap.
- better yet drop the cost for skill based enhancements so that each AP spent gets you a +1 skill boost. Either Search IV gets you 1 skill pt in search for 1 AP or 4 skill pts for 4 AP. I'll take either. If the flat cost is not broken for dwarf toughness, it won't be broken for skills.
Of course, don't just increase the cost of everything to compensate or we will be back where we started with Rogues putting most of their APs in skill enhancements just to make the grade.

Also, any fix to the cost of skills through enhancements should open up AP's to allow rogues to take more of the fighting based enhancements. Sneak attack training 4 is a nice boost (+8 dmg) but how many rogues can afford to take it? The boost numbers could be higher but since I have not ever been able to afford the enhancements, I am not able to give a qualified opinion. I would guess that overall +8 dmg is not better than improving your crit range by 2 and the cost of doing it is pretty high (10 APs vs 6 APs for Crit Rage II).

Improve the Way Of ... line to make a difference. The Way of Acrobat speed boost doesn't even stack with with 25% speed items. If Barb speed boosts can stack, the Way Of the Acrobat should be able to as well. Way of Assassin is weak and the increase to a 33% chance of poisoning won't change that. I think that Way of Mechanic is only taken as a cheaper way to get skill boosts. I know my rogue has never used the repair skill that you get from it.

Add a UMD line of enhancements. Start them at level 3 or 4 if you are worried about them being too easy to get by splashing a couple of rogue levels. At least with their UMD high enough rogues have a better chance of pretending they are wizards or clerics to get into parties that don't find the rogue sufficiently useful.

[ahpook]

Another idea for a rogue enhancement line is one that improves the DC of weapon effects. It would take the DC of disruption up from 14 to 15, Banishing from 24 to 25, Cursespewing from 15 to 16, etc. This seems to be a nice intersection of Rogues ability to be a secondary fighter and to use magical effects and items better. It won't risk them competing with a fighter or Barb on DPS but would allow them to contribute in melee.

4 levels of the enhancement with the last one coming at level 18-20 seems reasonable.