Possibilities for Rogue love in the future?

[CDevil]

Before I start this, a little disclaimer:

There are several threads out there complaining about the relative power of certain classes/races, and asking for them to be nerfed to make them more "equal".

THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

I have no problem with the expansions and enhancements that have been given to other classes. I simply feel that, on its own merit, the Rogue class has been underpowered and continues to become less and less viable.

Right off the bat, two things Rogues are renowned for - climbing surfaces and stealing - don't exist in DDO. Beyond that, things are still getting worse. Skill enhancements have been reduced. The difficulty to find and disarm traps has increased. Stealth has been altered to make any actions taken break it, and simply sneaking around still has issues.

The argument has been made that traps are going to be more powerful in future MODs, but I doubt that would change the (all too familiar) tactic of "buff the tank and let them run through and set it off". Honestly, how powerful can you make a trap that can't be overcome by a bunch of buffs nowadays?

To give Rogues some love (come on, Devs, show us you care!), I'd like to suggest the following:

1. Rethink some of these dungeons (please hold your groans) and start adding the potential to complete them using stealth and smarts rather than brute force. In theory, a Rogue with high enough skills should be able to make it through many dungeons without killing a thing (at least, this is possible in PnP, and YES, I know this isn't the same). This simply isn't possible in DDO's dungeons as they are currently created, where you have to kill a creature or a mob to open a door or a chest, or to retrieve an item. As it stands, the Harbor quest to retrieve the Eye of Khyber (honestly, the ONLY low-level quest there was that could be done totally by stealth) was ruined with the MOD that made any action you take break stealth. The Marketplace quest to retrieve the stolen signet is a wash because there's a kill requirement, instead of simply being able to recover the object. "Thinking" one's way through a dungeon pretty much amounts to "What's the fastest way to kill everything?". This needs to change. You could take this even further, perhaps adding a "guile" bonus to an adventure for using sneaky means to accomplish certain goals (this is
NOT the same as the "no kill" bonus).

2. Increase skill bonuses: Combat classes get the big fighting bonuses. Casters get their SP and metaspell bonuses. Give Rogues back their higher skill bonuses, or at least make them multiskill bonuses again instead of individual. Skills are the Rogue's stock-in-trade, and a wide range of high skills is what helps a Rogue shine. Considering what other classes are capable of in their own rights, this definitely wouldn't be an unbalancing change.

3. Fix Stealth: I agree that attacking should break stealth for everybody. No issue whatsoever with that. Still, sneaking is a Rogue's bread and butter, and they're second to none at it (sorry, rangers). There are many actions Rogues should be able perform (open doors/chests, operate switches) without breaking stealth because THAT'S WHAT THEY DO. They sneak. They skulk. They steal.

The argument was made way back when that monsters would react to things being opened that shouldn't be. The obvious answer is that Rogues would close things behind them. A Rogue opens a door, he closes it behind him. He opens a chest to loot it, he shuts the lid afterwards. Even a pulled switch can be explained. A roaming guard would be unlikely to notice it since they're more concerned with looking for intruders. Little details like these are things Rogues use to their favor. Let them do it.

4. Trap setting: Just as Rogues can disarm traps, they should be able to reset them to hurt monsters (possible in PnP if you're skilled enough) instead of the party. Also, Rogues should be able to build and set their own traps. This could lead to a whole new shop chain, with rogues purchasing traps or trap components with various effects and levels of damage. If the crafting system ever gets implemented, it shouldn't be difficult to allow rogues to make their own. You could even create a whole new prestige enhancement: Trapsetter.

5. Distractions: Along with stealth, Rogues should have the ability to redirect a monster's attention elsewhere. This could be done using a consumable item which a Rogue would throw in a particular direction to draw a wandering monster away from his goal. Aiming could be accomplished with mouse look, much as ranged attackers do to shoot at something beyond sight range.
(cough - Beholders in Invaders - cough)

6. Climbing: Ladders are nice, but a good Rogue can climb almost any wall or other surface, given a chance. Granting rogues the ability to climb walls or cliffs to reach higher vantage points opens up the potential for new options; sniping enemies, finding hidden items, or even discovering new quests (think of the value a Rogue would have if the only way to reach a quest entrance involved a high Climb skill). Once at the top, a rogue could lower a rope or somesuch for the other members of the party.

7. Picking pockets: Stealing from PCs would create a lot of headaches, but how about lifting a few coins (or low level items) off the vendors? Plenty of adventures involve needing a key or object a certain creature is holding, why not sneak up and steal it? (If the tanks want to kill the creature afterwards, that's their business.) At higher levels, this could open new tactics in combat, as a highly skilled Rogue could potentially steal a creature's weapons before the fight begins.

8. Scavenging: Beyond all else, Rogues know how to look for items of value. I don't mean your standard "spot/search" checks, anyone can do those. A rogue knows to look for the stuff anyone else would miss, and can determine value better than almost anyone. Giving them a chance to find an extra item on a dead body or enhance the value of recovered loot by examining it and discovering a hidden quality would certainly improve a Rogue's value in a party. This could also be improved with prestige enhancements.

9. Booby Traps: Specifically, trapped chests. Not the kind we have now, where you can find a box outside the chest, linked to a trap that goes off when the lid is opened. I mean trap the chest itself. If the chest is opened without being disarmed, "BOOM!!!" Take your standard fire/acid/lightning damage, and THE LOOT IN THE CHEST IS DESTROYED!!! I'm not suggesting a possibility that EVERY chest is like this; certainly the end loot chests in quests should be left alone. But allowing a small percentage that any OTHER chest in the dungeon could pop off would definitely allow a Rogue to improve his worth.

(Note: A lot of these suggestions would also be great for Bards and Rangers to one degree or another.)

Anyhow, that's my 2 coppers' worth.

Anyone else got any suggestions?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

1. Rethink some of these dungeons (please hold your groans) and start adding the potential to complete them using stealth and smarts rather than brute force.

I don't know its worth them going back and recoding old stuff, but they really should do this for anything new they build.

2. Increase skill bonuses:

Wouldn't turn it down, but never really felt short of skills on a full rogue.

3. Fix Stealth:

Good suggestions

4. Trap setting: Just as Rogues can disarm traps, they should be able to reset them to hurt monsters (possible in PnP if you're skilled enough) instead of the party. Also, Rogues should be able to build and set their own traps.

Yup yup.

6. Climbing: Ladders are nice, but a good Rogue can climb almost any wall or other surface, given a chance.

A climb skill is lacking in this game (along with grapples, rope, etc) but the crappy linear design assumes we can't climb or fly and thus we won't get either as it will break many old quests, including raids.

7. Picking pockets: Stealing from PCs would create a lot of headaches, but how about lifting a few coins (or low level items) off the vendors?

Only if you are willing to see the city guard arrest you if you fail. Plan on having your char marked as "locked" for a few days?

9. Booby Traps

Blow that roll and your party would love you... I'd rather the traps attack the people than the loot

[Aesop]

As for Picking POckets I'd say make it in dungeons and make it so that you can pick a key off a guy or some random coins or collectables or maybe even potions off a Mob.

Trapped chests I wouldn't mind them blowing everyone around them up but blowing up loot would tick people off too much I think

the rest isn't bad and I'd like to see a lot of these.

Aesop

[MysticTheurge]

I seriously doubt we'll see any new skills added to the game until they get a Skill Respec system worked out.

At that point, I'd like to see:

Climb (would let you climb certain pre-determined locations, to prevent it from "breaking" old quests)
Sleight of Hand (picking pockets, hiding weapons, maybe help reduce hate?)
Spellcraft (would let you identify enemy spells as they're cast, perhaps counterspell, also needed for Epic level spells)
Decipher Script (some specific quest uses, maybe other stuff)
Escape Artist (used to escape some spells/traps, squeeze through small spaces in certain quests)
Gather Information (used for some specific quest dialogs, maybe even used to get certain quests)
Knowledge skills (give a small bonus vs. certain enemies? additional quest-specific uses)
Sense Motive (quest specific uses, maybe also vs. enemy rogues who bluff you)
Survival (help with tracking, maybe show enemies on the minimap?, also used to identify/avoid natural "hazards" a la traps)
Use Rope (grappling hooks again in certain locations, maybe other uses?)

[Mercules]

I seriously doubt we'll see any new skills added to the game until they get a Skill Respec system worked out.

At that point, I'd like to see:

Climb (would let you climb certain pre-determined locations, to prevent it from "breaking" old quests)
Sleight of Hand (picking pockets, hiding weapons, maybe help reduce hate?)
Spellcraft (would let you identify enemy spells as they're cast, perhaps counterspell, also needed for Epic level spells)
Decipher Script (some specific quest uses, maybe other stuff)
Escape Artist (used to escape some spells/traps, squeeze through small spaces in certain quests)
Gather Information (used for some specific quest dialogs, maybe even used to get certain quests)
Knowledge skills (give a small bonus vs. certain enemies? additional quest-specific uses)
Sense Motive (quest specific uses, maybe also vs. enemy rogues who bluff you)
Survival (help with tracking, maybe show enemies on the minimap?, also used to identify/avoid natural "hazards" a la traps)
Use Rope (grappling hooks again in certain locations, maybe other uses?)

Don't forget Synergy Bonuses.

Skill Synergy

It’s possible for a character to have two skills that work well together. In general, having 5 or more ranks in one skill gives the character a +2 bonus on skill checks with each of its synergistic skills, as noted in the skill description. In some cases, this bonus applies only to specific uses of the skill in question, and not to all checks. Some skills provide benefits on other checks made by a character, such as those checks required to use certain class features.

• Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you get a +2 bonus on Jump checks.
  If you have 5 or more ranks in Jump, you get a +2 bonus on Tumble checks.
  
• Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sleight of Hand checks, as well as on Disguise checks made when you know you’re being observed and you try to act in character.
  
• Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (arcana), you get a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks.
  If you have 5 or more ranks in Use Magic Device, you get a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks to decipher spells on scrolls.
  If you have 5 or more ranks in Spellcraft, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks related to scrolls.
  
• Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Decipher Script, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks involving scrolls.

[GuitarHero]

Aye, the stealth thing is boned, and really needs to be worked on. The harbor stealth quest in mention was easier for my 5th level warchanter than my 14th level rogue. My rogue can do it, of course, but my chanter just runs in, blurred and (now) displaced, throwing levers and facinating everything.

And one of my favorite aspects of steath is the ability to distract enemies, such as your spent ammo clips in Metal Gear Solid games. It shouldn't really have to be a consumable item, however, given anyone can pick up a rock and toss it. The check should be, does the rock make more noise landing than you did throwing it, i.e. your feet shifting on gravel to throw it properly, or was the enemy looking in your direction when the rock goes flying out.

Also, a point of the two sets of rules, mobs can run and shout and not break stealth, but we're stuck at half speed. Give us a faster sneaking option (not the enhancement) to where we can sneak at regular speed at a marked penalty to stealth. It wouldn't do to sneak past alert bugbears at a full run, but if they are already moving towards another threat, you could sprint the last couple yards to deliver a sneak attack without having to creep along to do it.

[Mercules]

Aye, the stealth thing is boned, and really needs to be worked on. The harbor stealth quest in mention was easier for my 5th level warchanter than my 14th level rogue. My rogue can do it, of course, but my chanter just runs in, blurred and (now) displaced, throwing levers and facinating everything.

Funny... My level 2 Rogue did the quest just fine and it wasn't very hard at all.

[GrayOldDruid]

Right off the bat, two things Rogues are renowned for - climbing surfaces and stealing - don't exist in DDO.

... hrmph! We prefer the term "Creative Acquisition"

[GuitarHero]

Funny... My level 2 Rogue did the quest just fine and it wasn't very hard at all.

mine could as well, and did, but i ran it a bit back on my rogue once capped to get someone else the favor on elite, and then again a couple days later on my chanter to get the favor for myself, and it was easier on my 'chanter. Its easier to run in and CC everything than try to get the timing right on hitting the levers and getting back into stealth before anyone sees you.

[GuitarHero]

... hrmph! We prefer the term "Creative Acquisition"

I prefer "Testing its Security!"

[Mercules]

mine could as well, and did, but i ran it a bit back on my rogue once capped to get someone else the favor on elite, and then again a couple days later on my chanter to get the favor for myself, and it was easier on my 'chanter. Its easier to run in and CC everything than try to get the timing right on hitting the levers and getting back into stealth before anyone sees you.

I find the exact opposite to be true. I know I can pull the lever and not be noticed, I'm not sure the mobs won't all miraculously roll 20s.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I prefer "Testing its Security!"

Yup yup, that's what I told CSIS when they knocked on my door asking about me visiting military computer sites.

[llevenbaxx]

Really nice OP, liked pretty much all the suggestions you listed. Not sure how they could impliment the climbing thing w/o really messing up alot of quests but things like stealth really do need to be fixed.

The skill synergy thing is something that Ive been missing from PnP since day one, I play a couple characters that are skill heavy, having the synergy affect as in PnP would really make an improvement for the skill based characters/classes. They really should have put this feature in from day one.

Also thank you OP for not including words like "only" and "pure" in your post. All rogues are in the same boat.

[WeaselKing]

7. Picking pockets: Stealing from PCs would create a lot of headaches, but how about lifting a few coins (or low level items) off the vendors? Plenty of adventures involve needing a key or object a certain creature is holding, why not sneak up and steal it?

I think this is a brilliant option to the must kill monster x to open door y thing. Instead let the rogue pick the pocket of monster x or perhaps use a rogues climbing skill (rope as a consumable perhaps like thieves' tools) to climb on the ceiling and activate a button or switch that no one else besides a skillful rogue (ie make this too difficult for any multiclassed rogues to pull off on level appropriate quests). The brilliance of DnD is the versatility of options available to the player, I realize this is impossible to code infinite possibilities (I'm looking forward to seeing how they implement the wish spell) but we definitely need options other than killing everything in a dungeon to complete it. Also, while I'm at it "unpickable" doors are way too prevalent in this game why can't doors that the devs don't want us to pick just have an insane DC check (say 100). I just plain don't like the idea of an "unpickable" lock, I realize that in many cases rogues will needlessly burn through thieves' tools trying to open something they can't, but thats just how it goes. It would seem to make sense to me though, that if a lvl 20 rogue with maxed out open lock should be able to, for instance, unlock the door in rare scrolls without having to retrieve the key or at least by sneaking through without breaking stealth to retieve it.

[Mercules]

Yup yup, that's what I told CSIS when they knocked on my door asking about me visiting military computer sites.

After changing my password on a Friday and not remembering the exact layout of it on Monday, I proceeded to hack my own computer at work. After about an hour I was able to get into it(Win 2k) and had changed the password to something else. Unfortunately I hosed up EVERY password on the computer in the process and it was all done with Registry changes. So I needed to reload the OS. Why did I do it anyway? There were files I needed to recover off that computer and it was not tied into the domain so IT/IS had no idea what the password would be. I got all the data I needed, reloaded everything.

A few months went by and a member of the IT staff came down and quietly started to ask questions. Apparently he had locked himself out of his development machine of the network and was too embarrassed to go to his boss and admit this. He had asked around in the internet tech department and ended up at my desk. So I warned him what it would do to the system and he had the same situation, needed all the work off the computer but could reinstall from scratch once he had it, and so a day later his computer was up and working.

When his boss had noticed us working on his computer he asked why I was there. His boss disliked our department, we had our own software, we were admins on our computers, and we had computers on his network and then ones on the network that all of our customers used(ISP portion of a phone company) and so he lacked control over what we could do with our computers. He was also suspicious of us, as many in the department gained skills with computers and the internet outside of normal learning circles... Ehem. He disliked me personally because I was also in charge of abuse cases for the ISP, spam mail, and viruses. He tried to force me to use his Outlook server for all my E-mail and then freaked out when I downloaded my "Postmaster" mail which included 2000+ virus infected E-mails. I got great joy in calmly explaining this aspect of my job requirements after he frantically ran over to my desk and hovered over me red faced.

When asked the IT staff member didn't miss a beat and stated, "Oh, I was just having him test the security. So far he can't break it." It earned me a dirty look, but no action from the boss.

[GuitarHero]

(ie make this too difficult for any multiclassed rogues to pull off on level appropriate quests).

this part right here is where its gonna burn ya, WK. I play a pure rogue, but i have no problem with multiclassers. Its like saying only a pure fighter should be able to hit this enemy, or only a pure caster should be able to cast this spell. DnD and DDO are built on versatility and multiclassing. Saying someone shouldn't be able to do something just because they have more than one class isn't gonna fly, bro. I get the same grief on my warchanter (right now 7 bard/1 fighter) when i try to join pugs as the tank. THey say, "nah, we need a tank, thanks though," and won't listen when i tell them i AM a tank, and just as good, if not better, than a regular tank.

[Cowdenicus]

What needs to be added to rogues in my opinion is a way through enhancement buys to crit constructs and undead.... just my opinion (and no I dont really play a rogue, not seriously anyways.)

[Raithe]

3. Fix Stealth

First, I agree with many of the points made. This game needs more depth to allow rogues to be good at what they do.

I disagree, however, that stealth needs fixed. Stealth is working wonderfully, and is improved over the original implementation at launch. I hope that no one is actually paying attention to certain persons posting on the forums about how "stealth is broken," especially when what is actually being tested is aggro and the parts of the invisibility spell that don't relate to stealth.

You can stealth your way through Stealthy Repossession if you take the time to watch the watchers.

[WeaselKing]

this part right here is where its gonna burn ya, WK. I play a pure rogue, but i have no problem with multiclassers. Its like saying only a pure fighter should be able to hit this enemy, or only a pure caster should be able to cast this spell. DnD and DDO are built on versatility and multiclassing. Saying someone shouldn't be able to do something just because they have more than one class isn't gonna fly, bro. I get the same grief on my warchanter (right now 7 bard/1 fighter) when i try to join pugs as the tank. THey say, "nah, we need a tank, thanks though," and won't listen when i tell them i AM a tank, and just as good, if not better, than a regular tank.

Well, my point was that I didn't want a 13 ftr/1 rog to be able to climb up on the ceiling and activate the switch in a rogue lever (perhaps something like a trap box) 14-16 quest or pick the pocket of a CR 18 boss, but maybe they could pull it off in a level 1-9 quest. I just think that bypassing the kill monster x open door y thing should require however let's say bards and rangers get this as a class skill (I haven't played PnP since before 3.0 so I have no idea) then they would have no problem. I am not saying that this should be as difficult as the cabal trap but it would seem appropriate to make sure that the toon has to sacrifice something else significant in order to get access to this ability.

[llevenbaxx]

First, I agree with many of the points made. This game needs more depth to allow rogues to be good at what they do.

I disagree, however, that stealth needs fixed. Stealth is working wonderfully, and is improved over the original implementation at launch. I hope that no one is actually paying attention to certain persons posting on the forums about how "stealth is broken," especially when what is actually being tested is aggro and the parts of the invisibility spell that don't relate to stealth.

You can stealth your way through Stealthy Repossession if you take the time to watch the watchers.

Better than at launch yes, working wonderfully not imo. If anything it seems too oversimplified. Do mobs just have a set spot? Do they gain a bonus if they are actively searching? Having just about everything break stealth is a big failing point imo. Openning a door doesnt mean you are comletely exposing yourself, sure a door creaking open a couple inches would cause a mob to actively search but it shouldnt be an auto spot imo.

Why can we do things like search and DD(something that takes concentration) while remaining stealthed but pushing on a piece of wood is a complete stealth breaker. It seems to me they did this for the specific reason of not allowing rogues/whoever to sneak through quests, very lame if this is the case, why is that playstyle not legit? Not asking to be able to stealth through the entire game but not being able to slip through a simple door makes the skill trivial at best to me.