Flame Wars in Flame Threads?

[HumanJHawkins]

I just read about the new achievement forum and it is a step in the right direction. But why are you still trying to police your user's thoughts on this kind of forum. (It is bad enough that you try to police it elsewhere!) Seriously... Why do you care?

If two guilds are competing to be the first to finish something, why do you want to spoil it for BOTH guilds by not letting the victor say "Woo Hoo. We pwned you!" to the other? It is YOU who are insulting us with this policy. This policy very clearly and eloquently says to your users that they are babies, too weak or jealous to handle someone else getting somewhere first.

And, if a thread degenerates into "You suck" followed by "No, you suck worse", why do you care about this either? Most people will leave this kind of thread and it will die anyway. And when it doesn't die, there is a reason for that. Because some people LIKE to argue. Why not let them? I really don't see how it hurts anyone. And I do see that it helps all of these conversations when people can speak freely without devoting part of their brain to trying to guess what is appropriate and what isn't. (And, wouldn't it make life easier for you also?)

There are any number of forums and newsgroups that do just fine with no moderator at all... Flame wars happen sometimes. But for the most part, people self-regulate. People learn who the trolls are and stop responding to their stupidity. Threads sometimes deteriorate, then someone moves the intelligent parts to another thread where it happily continues. And the flamers vent their frustrations into nothingness. Everybody wins.

This seems to be a bad policy based on a very narrow view of what conversation should be. I mean, if the people making these decisions are all soccer moms who take their kids to "both teams win" type soccer matches, that's great for you. But it starts to be a bad thing when you try to force your customers (who have a wide variety of different perspectives) to fit into that narrow mold.

[MysticTheurge]

If your kindergarteners are cussing each other out because there's only one cookie left, why do you care?

Stop trying to police their thoughts!

[Kire]

If your kindergarteners are cussing each other out because there's only one cookie left, why do you care?

Stop trying to police their thoughts!

Exactly! why wouldnt my old boss believe in my teaching principals!

~Kire

[Arnya]

Exactly. Make it like real life. I make my kids sort out their own squabbles. If it turns nasty, they need to learn how to deal with it.

LET THE STRONG SURVIVE.

I live in a country where PC has made kids weak. They all get their exam results watered down if they exceed the 'norm'. Both sports teams win. In 10 years there will be nobody left to make a decision round here.

Leaders are born from hard times. They rise above the common person with a voice of reason and people listen. How can we have leaders if we are regulated in how we behave, react, and interact with people around us?

Any society that sets its' standards by the lowest common denominator is going to languish and not advance.

[KoboldKiller]

I understand what you are saying and I somewhat agree. I think their point may be that we are supposed to be adults (at least I believe the majority of us are) as such we should behave in a manner that denotes this. I don't think a little harmless jabbing is a big deal. Unfortunatley these things turn into personal attacks that really create a negative atmosphere and for outsiders may be a turn off towards the game. We need to portray a positive image and show people new to the game that we are helpfull to eachother and applaud accomplishments. There seems to be a large gap between the haves and have nots and it seems a majority of these threads become a see what i can do and you can't. I am not one of these individuals that gets my feelings hurt as I enjoy what little accomplishments I have. I cheer those who can do the things they post. Anyway I have wandered off point. Yes most of these threads die but as we have all seen some of these threads have comments that go beyond what is acceptable or neccessary. As far as the forum police go it's their yard they make the rules and we agree to play by them. Any society whether it's a forum a township, city, state, country needs to have monitors in place or anarchy will reign.

[noneou]

Flames do not stack. So dont worry it wont be that bad.

[BlueLightBandit]

I hesitate to point out that "We pwned you!" is roughly equal to "You suck." Well, in the adult world at least.

Fortunately for you, that would be considered a Trolling post and not a Flaming post... so your whole argument is moot.

Neither DDO nor DnD has ever been about competition, it has been about teamwork and camaraderie. The way I translated Toleros post was that "If you can't say anything that improves camaraderie or teamwork, then don't say anything at all." It was later added that Constructive Criticism is always allowed, note the emphasis on CONSTRUCTIVE.

"We pwned you!" doesn't fit into any of those categories, so it will not be allowed.

Again, you are a very fortunate person, and are free to start forums or post on forums outside of the Turbine realm, where you don't have to be bothered with those pesky morals if you don't want to.

[Mercules]

As a Veteran of FPS games as well as fighter games like Tekken, SF2, Virtua-fighter, BloodyRoar, SoulBlade(Edge), and numerous other competitive games as well as someone who enjoys competing in Paintball matches, I can say I am much more impressed with a person/group who can win or achieve a goal others couldn't and is humble in it.

The teen-age team at the local paintball field who was taunting my team with their shut-out win was rather sullen the next week when we won. In between they might have been wondering why, when all the other teams were chatting with each other, they were ignored.

The 25-30 team that beat us and when we complimented them on their win pointed out some things we were doing right, and where we went wrong and mentioned a point where they thought the match might have swung were much more impressive.

That forum, is for the later style, not the former and that is what Tolero is asking you to do.

Maturity is something that comes with a change in thought, not a birthday.

[In_Like_Flynn]

But it starts to be a bad thing when you try to force your customers to fit into that narrow mold.

The mold is politeness, and it aids inclusion.

[HumanJHawkins]

<CUT>Neither DDO nor DnD has ever been about competition, it has been about teamwork and camaraderie. The way I translated Toleros post was that "If you can't say anything that improves camaraderie or teamwork, then don't say anything at all." It was later added that Constructive Criticism is always allowed, note the emphasis on CONSTRUCTIVE.

I totally respect that opinion. In fact I agree with it and that is how I play. However, I am also capable of seeing that you are expressing a personal preference. While I share your preference, I think you it is just plain evil to try to force this preference on others. You seem to want a community, but you don't support inclusion of other points of view?

I know a lot of people for whom this is ALL about competition. Imagine someone comes in and says, "Woot. I was the first to solo the reaver!" You have a few options besides telling them to shut up and giving them an infraction point... You could:

• Say nothing because you don't care.
• Say, "Congratulations!" because you are impressed
• Say "You suck." because you are jealous or generally hateful.

ALL of these reactions add to the community. If nothing else, the last one helps us know who among us is generally hateful.

Again, you are a very fortunate person, and are free to start forums or post on forums outside of the Turbine realm, where you don't have to be bothered with those pesky morals if you don't want to.

So... We don't just all have to have the same preference of play style to post here, but we must now pass a test of morals? You illustrate my points very well.

The fact is that this is a Turbine owned site and I am well aware that Turbine has the right to make the rules. What I am trying to say is that Turbine is hurting itself and it's community by excluding a large part of their customer base. There are only two interests here: It is in Turbine's interest to make money. And it is in user's interest to have fun.

Well, a lot of people find it fun to verbally quarrel with each other. And these people have money too. So it is in Turbine's best interest to try to find a way to include them.

Now, the rest of the internet has this figured out. There are literally thousands of forums that get along just fine without moderators. Almost all of them have a few annoying trolls and flamers. But most people find that a trivial price to pay for knowing that they are free to discuss anything in whatever way they feel is most appropriate... I.e. the freedom to BE an adult, rather than feel like a puppet being guided into someone else's vision of what an adult should be.

I am much more impressed with a person/group who can win or achieve a goal others couldn't and is humble in it.<CUT>

That is very reasonable. Now, if everyone is forced to follow that pattern in order to participate here, can you tell me how you will know who is worthy of your respect because they are truly humble, and who is not because they were just crammed into the cookie-cutter?

[philo]

If two guilds are competing to be the first to finish something, why do you want to spoil it for BOTH guilds by not letting the victor say "Woo Hoo. We pwned you!" to the other? It is YOU who are insulting us with this policy.

While I realize its just an example, if anyone actually uses the word pwned in a non-joking manner you have already made a fool of yourself.

[Pellegro]

I suspect that if it was as simple as having a very segregated little play area where the idiots could go beat on each other, that Turbine wouldn't care. Suspect.

But that isn't how it would work. People would anger each other over there on dumb things, and it would spill over. It would affect the ambience of the entire sight. "Oh yeah? Lets take it to [THAT BOARD] and I'll tell you what I really think!" etc. etc.

Have the private guild v. guild spats on your personal webhosts. There are plenty of free ones.

[Mercules]

That is very reasonable. Now, if everyone is forced to follow that pattern in order to participate here, can you tell me how you will know who is worthy of your respect because they are truly humble, and who is not because they were just crammed into the cookie-cutter?

It's easy, they wouldn't feel the need to boast about who was there first and so would be unlikely to post on those boards.