Congratz Legion PD!

[parvo]

I find the gripers all so odd. I think the most successful traits in a pd group are knowing the other players well and having a well built group for those players/the game. I think the "major PD guilds" should rethink their organizational strategy if they want optimum success. The whole strategy of having part time players or a revolving door of players coming and going will not get it done from an optimum success standpoint. I think the most successful pders are either in a small guild who has been playing with each other for months or a faction within a larger guild who have done much the same thing oh and these players should be pretty darn good as well. If the goal of a pd guild is to have fun trying to do pd that is fine, but if it is optimum success - you should rethink your strategy...

I agree with what you say about sucessful traits. I probably disagree on what is optimum success. In my opinion, optimum success in PD is zero deaths.

[Strings]

I read from a post from one of the members that you farmed the hell out of quests for XP. That gave me the impression that you re-ran things like SC over and over. I like the idea of only doing each quest once on each difficulty and that is almost how I've set up the rules for Mortal Voyage. If my assumption was incorrect, I apologize.

Yes, that was me haha.. but what I meant was yes, we shamefully chose to pick the higher xp quests over the favor grind quests in the market, house J or house K. And yes, we did run those 3x, once on each setting.. there are plenty of these quests where you're much more efficient by running all of them for max xp / time spent.

[parvo]

Yes, that was me haha.. but what I meant was yes, we shamefully chose to pick the higher xp quests over the favor grind quests in the market, house J or house K. And yes, we did run those 3x, once on each setting.. there are plenty of these quests where you're much more efficient by running all of them for max xp / time spent.

Abstaining from the auction house and running quests only once is a great way to go. Take a look at this rule set (and the spirit of) and see if that's what you guys want to do next.

www.mortalvoyage.com

Of course if you all made Clerics (raisers) under the MV rule set, I'll still smirk

I'm sorry if it sounded like griping, it certainly wasn't intended to be. I just wanted to answer the question of why Sublime hasn't done it. Sublime does a lot of questing at all levels without a raiser. A lot of high level Sublime characters would still be alive if everyone could raise.

[Strings]

Of course if you all made Clerics (raisers) under the MV rule set, I'll still smirk

haha.. to be very honest here.. our success was because of our sorc, maurader (sorry Ren, I gave it away). I made my bard to heal, CC, and DV for him. If it wasn't for a sorc, cleric buffs, traps being disabled, and fascinate / buffs, we would have never made it. An all cleric group would be far from my dream group. I honestly can't imagine a better group that what we put together. If anyone finds a better group than:

13 bard / 1 cleric (14 DVs - 32 CHA CC / Healing spec)
9 fighter / 3 rogue / 2 paladin
13 cleric / 1 fighter
14 sorc

Please let me know =)

[Strings]

Oh! and hats off to you "no-multi class" PD groups, that is a big feat.. I think that might be our next conquest.

[parvo]

haha.. to be very honest here.. our success was because of our sorc, maurader (sorry Ren, I gave it away). I made my bard to heal, CC, and DV for him. If it wasn't for a sorc, cleric buffs, traps being disabled, and fascinate / buffs, we would have never made it. An all cleric group would be far from my dream group. I honestly can't imagine a better group that what we put together. If anyone finds a better group than:

13 bard / 1 cleric (14 DVs - 32 CHA CC / Healing spec)
9 fighter / 3 rogue / 2 paladin
13 cleric / 1 fighter
14 sorc

Please let me know =)

The perfect group in Sublime is whoever is on at the time. It's a completely different mindset.

[parvo]

Oh! and hats off to you "no-multi class" PD groups, that is a big feat.. I think that might be our next conquest.

Don't make all Clerics and don't buy magical commodities, ie wands, scrolls, potions and then your challenging yourselves. Zero deaths should be the goal.

[Clay]

Hats off to Legion Permadeath... That's quite an accomplishment!

The glow from the congratulations (the one followed by the big "but" (no not my butt, but it certainly is a big one too.) positively warms my heart!

Congrats ... but let's not confuse people about how major PD guilds play.

(There are, I am sure, other venues for discussion of the various rules regarding permadeath. But what do I know)

I think I shall take the glow I am still feeling from the congratulations and go start a permadeath character. I just hope I follow the right rules. Perhaps I should look for a major guild. Can anyone recommend one to me?

[Drak]

Hats off to Legion Permadeath... That's quite an accomplishment!

Thanks mate, we truly were not worried about it, but still were surprised by how easily we did it.

[parvo]

Thanks mate, we truly were not worried about it, but still were surprised by how easily we did it.

How many character deaths along the way?

[Renegade66]

How many character deaths along the way?

Not many and all were legitimately raised, per Sublime AND Mortal Voyage PD ruleset.
Your own rules allow raising the same as the rules we followed. I quote:
3. . . . You can only be raised if one of your living group-mates has the ability. You cannot invite others into the group to assist with raises. The same rule covers incapacitated characters.
4. . . . Consumable raise abilities are acceptable at any level.
Furthermore, you allow twinking in the form of giving pots, wands, scrolls and ammo. We allow NO twinking whatsoever.
"Exception; you can trade collectibles and consumable items like potions, wands, scrolls and ammo within the guild."

Smirk all you want, but the fact is that our 4-man permadeath group was able to accomplish on our first try in less than a month what all other "major PD guilds" could not over the past 2 years. Yourself included. We used a harsher version of the Sublime rules and even harsher than your own Mortal Voyage rules. You say yes those are the rules but not the "real rules". A "real" PD player would never take a rez even if it is within the confines of the rule. Not following your own guild's rules is kind of silly don't you think? You say oh sure, make a perfect set of characters, no wonder; then follow with I'm going to smirk if you make a perfect set of characters i.e. all battle clerics. What is your perfect set of characters? What we did or battle clerics? You say that Sublime would have reached 14 already if they would have followed their own rules like we did. Well, the fact is that they have been following their own rules and have not reached 14. This is not a rip on sublime they themselves admitted their biggest hurdle is getting a core group to play consistently together as we have. Not one of them has come back saying what you have and you need to stop speaking on their behalf. Make yourself look like a whiner and don't bring their outstanding guild into the mix.

You challenge us to do it without deaths. That's fine. I challenge you to come back when you've accomplished anything notable. You've gotten nowhere in two years with your rules. Maybe you don't have the skills to play at that level. I recommend you step back and follow your Mortal Voyage or Sublime rules and see how far you get. Then talk to me when you hit 14 and 4-man the Titan in less than 4 weeks effort.

[Recovery]

I have read the forums long enough to know the Legion accomplishments....and know the way they are presented to the public. On this issue there is absolutely no way to prove this was done with any rule set. ANY PD group could of leveled to 14, but unless you have an unedited FRAPs of the entire voyagae to 14 there is no way to prove this was done without any bending of rules or not. Also for a guild that always says "Screenshot it or it did not happen"... all you did was 4-manned the TF and cannot prove there was 0 deaths. All you can prove is that you 4-manned it.

That does not go to just the Legion guys, but anyone for that matter. Anyone can say we did it, cause they know there is no way to prove such a journey actually happened the way it did.

I am not here to take sides... If all is said and true then Congrats on a well done accomplishment...

on a side note i had a feeling that once this accomplishment area of the forums came up, this kind of jerkery would start.

I am not trying to flame just trying to give a neutral opinion on this.

[Renegade66]

I have read the forums long enough to know the Legion accomplishments....and know the way they are presented to the public. On this issue there is absolutely no way to prove this was done with any rule set. ANY PD group could of leveled to 14, but unless you have an unedited FRAPs of the entire voyagae to 14 there is no way to prove this was done without any bending of rules or not. Also for a guild that always says "Screenshot it or it did not happen"... all you did was 4-manned the TF and cannot prove there was 0 deaths. All you can prove is that you 4-manned it.

That does not go to just the Legion guys, but anyone for that matter. Anyone can say we did it, cause they know there is no way to prove such a journey actually happened the way it did.

I am not here to take sides... If all is said and true then Congrats on a well done accomplishment...

on a side note i had a feeling that once this accomplishment area of the forums came up, this kind of jerkery would start.

I am not trying to flame just trying to give a neutral opinion on this.

FRAPS or not, there's no way to prove rules were followed (no twinking, etc.). You used a lot of words to state your simple point being that you don't believe we did what we did. I love this kind of post because you know you did something exceptional when people start implying you are lying.

[parvo]

Not many and all were legitimately raised, per Sublime AND Mortal Voyage PD ruleset.
Your own rules allow raising the same as the rules we followed. I quote:
3. . . . You can only be raised if one of your living group-mates has the ability. You cannot invite others into the group to assist with raises. The same rule covers incapacitated characters.
4. . . . Consumable raise abilities are acceptable at any level.
Furthermore, you allow twinking in the form of giving pots, wands, scrolls and ammo. We allow NO twinking whatsoever.
"Exception; you can trade collectibles and consumable items like potions, wands, scrolls and ammo within the guild."

Smirk all you want, but the fact is that our 4-man permadeath group was able to accomplish on our first try in less than a month what all other "major PD guilds" could not over the past 2 years. Yourself included. We used a harsher version of the Sublime rules and even harsher than your own Mortal Voyage rules. You say yes those are the rules but not the "real rules". A "real" PD player would never take a rez even if it is within the confines of the rule. Not following your own guild's rules is kind of silly don't you think? You say oh sure, make a perfect set of characters, no wonder; then follow with I'm going to smirk if you make a perfect set of characters i.e. all battle clerics. What is your perfect set of characters? What we did or battle clerics? You say that Sublime would have reached 14 already if they would have followed their own rules like we did. Well, the fact is that they have been following their own rules and have not reached 14. This is not a rip on sublime they themselves admitted their biggest hurdle is getting a core group to play consistently together as we have. Not one of them has come back saying what you have and you need to stop speaking on their behalf. Make yourself look like a whiner and don't bring their outstanding guild into the mix.

You challenge us to do it without deaths. That's fine. I challenge you to come back when you've accomplished anything notable. You've gotten nowhere in two years with your rules. Maybe you don't have the skills to play at that level. I recommend you step back and follow your Mortal Voyage or Sublime rules and see how far you get. Then talk to me when you hit 14 and 4-man the Titan in less than 4 weeks effort.

Let's be perfectly honest. You didn't play by a rule set even close to Mortal Voyage. You used scroll raises the whole way which you purchased at vendors. You also bought wands and potions. I have no issue with your accomplishment until you start comparing it to what other guilds do. And BTW, I've played with Sublime for over a year, personally recruited many who play there and still consider it my PD home. They have members who regularly enter a dungeon with their highest character who have never set foot in it before (PD or non-PD). Don't belittle Sublime or any other PD guild by doing a bunch of quests you've done 200 times, raising your characters the whole way, and then calling PD easy. The Sublime rule set was created during a time when it was difficult to get people to try PD, so they left it pretty loose and relied on people to make personal choices if they wanted further challenge. They have a great spirit of challenging themselves beyond the letter of the rules.

I have a level ten Sublime with exactly zero deaths. Most of the quests he's done were with no raisers in the party. He's never purchased any potion, wand or scroll and he has 905 favor. From what I understand that is about 100 short of your level fourteen. He quests with whomever else is on in his level range. Everything he purchased from auction was deleted when I realized what a joke that was. He's a solid 28-pt build but nothing Uber. He hasn't accomplished everything I dream of but perhaps he will. It will certainly take more than four weeks and that is part of the point. I don't have a single PD character that has been raised. Those that have, were deleted the day after.

Be honest, how many times were your characters raised? Did any of them complete the permadeath journey with zero deaths? These are legitamate questions. Not that I doubt you could do it. On the contrary, I know you can. I'm surprised you didn't set a higher standard for such great players.

[parvo]

I have read the forums long enough to know the Legion accomplishments....and know the way they are presented to the public. On this issue there is absolutely no way to prove this was done with any rule set. ANY PD group could of leveled to 14, but unless you have an unedited FRAPs of the entire voyagae to 14 there is no way to prove this was done without any bending of rules or not. Also for a guild that always says "Screenshot it or it did not happen"... all you did was 4-manned the TF and cannot prove there was 0 deaths. All you can prove is that you 4-manned it.

That does not go to just the Legion guys, but anyone for that matter. Anyone can say we did it, cause they know there is no way to prove such a journey actually happened the way it did.

I am not here to take sides... If all is said and true then Congrats on a well done accomplishment...

on a side note i had a feeling that once this accomplishment area of the forums came up, this kind of jerkery would start.

I am not trying to flame just trying to give a neutral opinion on this.

I don't doubt the honor of anyone here at all. I just don't want folks thinking that Sublime runs around with every character having a stack of Raise scrolls and still can't get characters to 14. It's simply not the way most in Sublime play.

Furthermore, I don't see any jerkery here. Legitimate discussion that can be positive so long as folks take it for what it is and don't get bent. There's no sense in that.

[parvo]

FRAPS or not, there's no way to prove rules were followed (no twinking, etc.). You used a lot of words to state your simple point being that you don't believe we did what we did. I love this kind of post because you know you did something exceptional when people start implying you are lying.

I wholeheartedly believe you did it. I'd be shocked if Legion couldn't avoid a party wipe.

[Clay]

The thing I don't understand is that anytime you Say "congratulations" or variations thereof, it is immediately followed by a "but."

Discussion is always a healthy thing, but so are questions.

Instead of assuming that the rules Legion followed are easier than the rules "major public PD guilds" follow (again belittling any words of praise you have previously uttered.) Do you not see how condescending that makes your posts appear? Or is that your intent?

How about a post, in the Thread Congrats Legion PD, you simply say: Congrats Legion. Hey I was just wondering what rules you followed? Why is it so important for you to make readers of this thread believe Legion's accomplishments aren't "real PD" accomplishments?

And as for Sublime... We at Legion have the highest respect for them. They are the whole inspiration behind our creation of PD characters. Do you think that there has been no discussion between our guilds? Sublime and your own rules allow for rezzing by clerics and those who can umd scrolls. Your guild rules do not allow the purchase of magical consumables... but I haven't seen that stated in the Sublime rules. (I guess that included Jellycakes purchased on the AH which Legion does not allow.)

I welcome any discussion, but lets not kid ourselves that that is the purpose of your posts.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Too bad it has descended where it has. I do believe it has gotten a little harsh (on both sides).

Completing everything in the game (or something like it) without any deaths whatsoever is beyond the capability of mortals. That's an unrealistic challenge that is clearly designed to diminish the accomplishment. If _nobody_ in your party is _ever_ dying, it just means you are skipping the truly dangerous stuff. I'm sure you guys felt guilty enough whenever someone did die (all PD players do). Claiming a couple of tanks that haven't died yet is missing the point: groups need more than indestructible tanks.

On the other hand, rubbing a raid 4-man in the face of people, most of whom have never done a raid before is a bit uncalled for as well (althought it was clearly a reaction to a stick in the eye). There are plenty of folks that only play PD and experience all quests that way. The open PD guilds (I'd prefer to call it an open PD guild and not a 'major' one) serve as a haven for newbs who don't like the general populace spoiling everything for them, and also as a safe place for people to try out whatever wacky build they want to without the pressure of being shoe-horned into typical PUG roles. Sublime operating as it does, by having a revolving door, welcoming all comers and partying with whomever is on at the time, will probably never complete any raid in the game unless a dedicated experienced group of folks decides to create a static group within it.

So on behalf of the Sublime, thanks for realizing our pipe dream. Maybe the devs (and other players) will take notice.

[Renegade66]

Too bad it has descended where it has. I do believe it has gotten a little harsh (on both sides).

Completing everything in the game (or something like it) without any deaths whatsoever is beyond the capability of mortals. That's an unrealistic challenge that is clearly designed to diminish the accomplishment. If _nobody_ in your party is _ever_ dying, it just means you are skipping the truly dangerous stuff. I'm sure you guys felt guilty enough whenever someone did die (all PD players do). Claiming a couple of tanks that haven't died yet is missing the point: groups need more than indestructible tanks.

On the other hand, rubbing a raid 4-man in the face of people, most of whom have never done a raid before is a bit uncalled for as well (althought it was clearly a reaction to a stick in the eye). The open PD guilds (I'd prefer to call it an open PD guild and not a 'major' one) serve as a haven for newbs who don't like the general populace spoiling everything for them, and also as a safe place for people to try out whatever wacky build they want to without the pressure of being shoe-horned into typical PUG roles. Sublime operating as it does, by having a revolving door, welcoming all comers and partying with whomever is on at the time, will probably never complete any raid in the game unless a dedicated experienced group of folks decides to create a static group within it.

So on behalf of the Sublime, thanks for realizing our pipe dream. Maybe the devs (and other players) will take notice.

Thanks for the note and I do admire the service Sublime offers the DDO community and for providing the incentive for Legion to do something new. I would say though that Legion did NOT "rub a 4-man raid in the face of people". We chose to not publish this achievement, although I think it silly to not post things like this as it raises the bar for others and provides a worthy challenge. In any event, Memnir (not in Legion) caught wind and thought it a good idea to post in the new "Achievements" forum. Very nice of him. Not so nice that people get butt-hurt when hearing other people talk about their accomplishments.

[Renegade66]

Don't belittle Sublime or any other PD guild by doing a bunch of quests you've done 200 times, raising your characters the whole way, and then calling PD easy.

There aren't any quests we haven't done 200 times. As stated over and over, we didn't grind any quest beyond once on normal, hard and elite. We didn't have that many deaths. Probably less deaths than the number of raise scrolls we've pulled from chests. We didn't say PD was easy. We said getting to 14 on PD was easier than we expected. I haven't belittled Sublime. I've only commended them.

Your response reminds me of when I posted the Jellybean Barbarian build as being a good alternative to the cookie cutter, dwarven THF build. The self-proclaimed barbarian gurus came out to defend their position only to fall to the reality of the situation. I see you in the same boat. I don't know for sure, but maybe your PD achievements held some weight in the PD community. Now Legion Permadeath comes along and leap frogs your years of effort by such a huge margin that you realize you may never have that sense of PD accomplishment again. You can twist and manipulate in a futile attempt to belittle what we did. In the end though, you will look bad for whining and we will look bad for being braggart pricks. Why not instead, go do something noteworthy of your own and post in the achievements forum. I think you'll end up with a sincere congratulations from us. And, if the accomplishment has surpassed our own then we'll greatly welcome the raising of the bar as a new challenge for ourselves.