Elf combat melee classes. Why bother?

[Sheezgame]

I don't mind that they are different, I would always have thought dwarves were better close combat fighters, it's what they do best.

My main chars are elves, and I don't mind that dwarves are more powerful, why shouldn't they be? Elves are probably stronger with magic and get elven arcanum and such. There is no reason why each race should be equal at each class.

[Angelus_dead]

My main chars are elves, and I don't mind that dwarves are more powerful, why shouldn't they be?

More powerful- sure.
But why are dwarves more nimble?

In D&D, the prestige class to get more max dex bonus from medium armor is elf-only.

[sigtrent]

More powerful- sure.
But why are dwarves more nimble?

In D&D, the prestige class to get more max dex bonus from medium armor is elf-only.

They arn't mroe nimble they are less encumbered by armor. In D&D dwarves never suffer movement penalties from armor. They can tumble in medium and heavy armor which no other race can do. Armor mastery is a measure of their abbility to wear and adjust thier armor without interrearing with their movements. Except when wearing heavy armor it is actualy kind of hard for dwarves to take a lot of advantage of armor mastery.

[Sheezgame]

More powerful- sure.
But why are dwarves more nimble?

In D&D, the prestige class to get more max dex bonus from medium armor is elf-only.

Yeah fair enough... I think maybe dwarves are fine as they are, but elves really need an enhancement that increases the max bonus from armor which they should get regardless of what dwarves have. To be honest I'm surprised we don't have one already!

Assuming this did happen however, what else are dwarves good at? Maybe they were originally worried dwarves wouldn't get played enough (people tend to fancy elves for aesthetics). I haven't played my dwarf enough to comment on this.

[MysticTheurge]

They arn't mroe nimble they are less encumbered by armor. In D&D dwarves never suffer movement penalties from armor. They can tumble in medium and heavy armor which no other race can do. Armor mastery is a measure of their abbility to wear and adjust thier armor without interrearing with their movements. Except when wearing heavy armor it is actualy kind of hard for dwarves to take a lot of advantage of armor mastery.

All of the things you suggest make a logical background for Dwarven Armored Agility.

There's really nothing to support Dwarven Armor Mastery as it's implemented currently.

[ViVid7th]

What needs to be done is to figure out what is the fluff (aka, lore) for Fighters having Armor Mastery. I would have to guess that is extensive training and familiarity with armor and knowing how to make the most of it.

Then take into account that Dwarves are a martial race. Metal and Stone composed the lives of their ancestors, and Dwarves follow tradition. "The past can never be forgotten" sort of thing. These traditions are fine tuned and honed by the dwarves of the proper chaste. Getting to the short of it, Dwarves generally shun Arcane magic in favor of Martial and Divine. Due to Arcane Spell Failure having no effect on Divine, and Clerics being expected in general to protect both the body and soul, armor and it's use has become commonplace among Dwarves. A dwarf is much more likely to start wearing armor at a much younger age and learn how to use it.
<Edit> That is to say that dwarves pick the line for what their life long profession will be then practice and fine tune all aspects of that. It is the reason why Dwarven Arms and Armor has such a strong reputation for being the best, not only has each individual Blacksmith been doing it for decades compared to their other counterparts (save elves) but each master teaches their apprentice not only the basics and advanced methods but also pass down personal tricks and secrets. If you are going to be in a more mobile profession, being taught armor is the standard.</edit>

Now add in that the most common armor used for defending and front line combat is Half Plate (Yes, Full Plate is better, but Full Plate requires each suit to be tailored to the wearer.). Half Plate provides the highest AC without requiring a dex bonus, meaning that the average person will always get the same amount of protection. Knowing how to get the most out of armor by turning your armor into the blows, maximizing coverage at the strike point is a way of utilizing your dex through training, not the armor's restiction (Which would be using your dex to avoid the blow and being subject to the armor's restriction). Dwarves normally aren't nimble but rather learn how to make the most of what they have through practice and familiarity.

Considering that I've played way too many fantasy games and each has their own little tweak to their races, I may be mistaken on most, or all of this. But where does Armored Agility end and Armor Mastery begin? Which situation does one apply through backround and not the other?

Gameplay wise, I do think Armor Mastery should be limited to 2 ranks for Dwarves to match other similar chains.

[sigtrent]

All of the things you suggest make a logical background for Dwarven Armored Agility.

There's really nothing to support Dwarven Armor Mastery as it's implemented currently.

I don't really see it that way. Armor dex limitations are based on the idea that it is harder to dodge when wearing armor. Dodging is a type of movement essentialy. If dwarves can move well in armor the dex limitiation should be less restrictive for them.

I'm all for giving other races AC bonus lines of some kind...

For elves I'd say they should have a line to get dodge bonuses in light or no armor, halfings.. not sure perhaps a further size ac bonus or such, SF an armor improvement to thier body feats (which they have for mithral already), for humans.. they have their boosts I suppose but perhaps they can get the old dodge/CE bonus lines to build on thier feat advantage.

So each has a way to enhance AC, but each is flavored a bit to the race and usefull in slightly different kinds of buidls.

Dwarves definatley get the best enhancements at the moment and stacking ones at that! But I think the flavor of them is just fine and more or less justified in a kind of "game physics" way.

[MysticTheurge]

Then take into account that Dwarves are a martial race. Metal and Stone composed the lives of their ancestors, and Dwarves follow tradition.

This is the reason several of us suggested early on that DAM be limited to Heavy Armors or a certain Max Dex (that would effectively limit it to heavier armors).

[krud]

Then take into account that Dwarves are a martial race. Metal and Stone composed the lives of their ancestors, and Dwarves follow tradition.
Gameplay wise, I do think Armor Mastery should be limited to 2 ranks for Dwarves to match other similar chains.

With the "Dwarf is martial race" thinking it would seem that two separate lines of non-stackable enhancements would be a better fit. As a dwarf you learn the same things about how to use armor that another race needs specialized fighter training to learn. However, you don't learn more by taking what you already know as a dwarf and relearning it as a fighter. DAM I equals the same kind of training you get with FAM I. Like item stacking bonus, you get the better of the two, not both.

This is the reason several of us suggested early on that DAM be limited to Heavy Armors or a certain Max Dex (that would effectively limit it to heavier armors).

This already is happening in practice. There aren't many dextrous dwarven builds running around trying to max out MithBP. I would think the same things you learn about Full plate would apply to mith FP. Also, the above remedy would serve to limit the max dex bonus

[Illuminati]

I really don't think by itself Dwarven Armor Mastery is the problem, it is just 'all' the stuff that Dwarves get. They need to break it up a little.

Saves: Ill give them the +2 to every save, but Drow/Elves should get as well.

Dwarven Spell Resistance Fortitude 1 (+1 to Fort Saves)
Dwarven Spell Resistance Fortitude 2 (+2 to Fort Saves)
Dwarven Spell Resistance Fortitude 3 (+3 to Fort Saves)

Same with will..

The most broken thing in the game after Human Versatility is the Dwarven Spell Resistance. I don't even mind the Toughness thing, but it should be a little more expensive.

The Dev's will never do that though. They created this Dwarven nightmare and they know too many people would get irked by fixing it. So basically you will see crafting bring some balance (no Dwarf axe), and possible some new enhancements for non dwarfs (halfling stuff, etc.)

[krud]

I really don't think by itself Dwarven Armor Mastery is the problem, it is just 'all' the stuff that Dwarves get. They need to break it up a little.

So basically you will see crafting bring some balance (no Dwarf axe), and possible some new enhancements for non dwarfs (halfling stuff, etc.)

As emili pointed out, it's the cheapness with which they get it all. Making DAM non-stacking will go a long way because it will make getting evrything more AP restrictive. The least controversial way to even things up is not to remove enhancements, or to add new ones (possibly creating a new uber race) but to change the AP cost (which non-stacking DAM does, as well as breaking up the spell resist line). The same options are available, but one now has to pick and choose which to focus on, instead of taking them all.

[Karavek]

Some of these post have been saying things like elves jsut want to be dwarves in drag etc. That we who pick elves and drow for flavor should not expect to be a dwarfs match etc. In PnP no dwarf made has ever matched my elves and drow in combat. Why you ask? Simple reasons mostly. Dwarves are slower at base and only get even slower in their preffered medium and heavy armors, allowing an agil elf in light armor easy hit them and run so far away a dwarf will be lucky to reach them in the next round. add in speed powers to both sides elves become just that much faster in the gap(say a hasted elf speed 60 hasted dwarf speed 30. Add in both persuing a PnP pretige class from the OH(oriental hand book) called blade dancer for the elf, give dwarf battle rager the elf now is hasted moving a 120 feet a round, dwarf raging and charging still cant keep up with his 15base+10 speed from rage, doubled from charging(not really a wise tactic btw) and hasted still only hits a 100 and cant touch an elf as he weaves in and away from the poor dwarf who at some point needs to rest while the elf laughs from a high tree and pelts him with a bow for fun before sneaking away stalking the dwarf and jsut gutting him when the rage runs out and leaves him winded.

All this is how any real PnP dwarf vs. Elf fight plays out and since elves with high dex and finesse usually hit a dwarf in plate easier and avoid his hits more often it usually is easy to force a dwarf to yeild and then having earned thier respect as warriors finally become fast friends. It is this that I miss, no dwarf ever respects my elf fighters they say eww why not be a dwarf so you are good.

Elves and other races gained no advantage when dwarves had their speed penalty removed, light armor users gained no advantage when they did not give heavy and medium armor speed penalties either. This game clearly gives speed some advantages but will not use a penalty to fairly disadvantage those who should be. If dwarfs could not keep up they would become less popular for loot runs, xp runs, and zerging in general which the GMs clearly dont want to encourage from alot of the alterations many quest ahve recieved since my last time playing the game. Instead such spells as invisibility recieved a huge nerf making it largely a joke, if you are invis even not sneaking things should not be like oh wait I heard what might have been a foot step there is a invisible man about start swinging within 5 feet of him like i have blind fight feat.

slow down the uber tank, and maybe zerging wouldnt exist in this game, grant the stealthy ninjas the right to avoid battle if they wish. Dont like all the constant over use of a single spell, try making a limit to each spell being used per rest i mean even with an spell point system you could say make spells be castable no more then 10 times each per rest forcing all to use their full spell inventory not just the most cost effective spells.Might force the casters and clerics to remember they to can use weapons and fight. Might even finally be able to tone down the mobs to non insane proportions and feel more like PnP.

The fact is the issue is not elves and dwarves its light vs heavy armor building and the ability to overwhelm foes with multiple blast of a single lvl 1 spell not using the classic big kill spells hardly at all. I so rarely see fire balls and lightning bolts being employed, spells which are the stock and trade spell of most PnP wizards from lvl 5 on. It could also help if you would make wands and potions abit cheaper so people dont just expect a cleric to always heal and buff, I mean come on prepping for a real raid should be costly in self heal potions but not waht they are atm.

[rimble]

Some of these post have been saying things like elves jsut want to be dwarves in drag etc. That we who pick elves and drow for flavor should not expect to be a dwarfs match etc. In PnP no dwarf made has ever matched my elves and drow in combat. Why you ask? Simple reasons mostly.

Legolassss? Is that you? Or is it Legoullass? I can never keep track. Dryzzezzt maybe?

[ViVid7th]

Kara, you are right. The biggest disadvantage to being a dwarf is that you are supposed to be slower. The advantage of that is that armor isn't supposed to drop your movement below 20ft. Other races in light armor will still be faster, but if you are trying to make a mobile dwarf it pretty much has to be a monk or barb.

On the other hand, I've built dwarven fighters that will match your elves in combat easily. You may be able to outrun them, but you can't outrange them, and for every 1 attack you get using hit and run I would get 3 at full BAB (4 if hasted). All I have to do is stand near my group's casters to guard them. Now you are facing something that has a higher AC than you, more attacks, and more hitpoints. Even without backup, you would be outmatched.

Assuming a dwarf would go after a PrC to match you is foolish. Best to take the advantages of the race and go for a PrC from there. If your movement is lacking, you either have to sac a magic item slot to make up the speed lost, which anyone can do, or take a core class that increases your base speed, or forget about mobility. It's why there are Race Restricted PrCs, not all races are equal in the same areas.

Then again, that build was an anti-cavalier build. Too many things do ride-by-attacks so this build was designed to adapt to any situation given with extreme prejudice and was weapon heavy to match it's design. I called him Clank.

Again, each race has it's own weaknesses and strengths. Dwarves had a lower base movement, which I'm sure got removed in DDO. But dwarves were always a good choice for rogues and fighers in PnP, along with allot of other races.

[Karavek]

I actually miss seeing dwarven rogues, bards, and especially wizards. When 3E came out, removing racial restrictions from all classes, many of my dwarf loving friends would play dwarven geomancers(earth magic mages). Unfortunatly due to the enhancment lines in this game no one even considers trying one.

Yes dwarves lack a natural stat bonus fo such casting but can be hardier by far, and with 32pnt builds can still have comparable casting stats to even drow. Dwarven speed penalties acutally encouraged them to be casters since then they didnt need to run down so much and could endure a few arrows or bolts being thrown far better then an elf wizard.

As for someones statment replying to some of my previous points.

1st round high dex elf likely wins iniative, closes uses a Sword breaker( short sword type weapon that does 2d6 damage when sundering) with improved sunder, wrecked your axe and ran out of range of any melee atk you might make. Since its first round you dont get to ready an atk for my coming in range. No allies 1 on 1, you pack maybe a few throwing axes(wieghing a hefty 1 pound each) My bow and arrows much light and many more rounds of ammo. I also assume the only magic item involved is a potion of haste on each side otherwise common items, this is PnP scenerio after all.I also am using largely 3E not 3.5E rules as even though I bought the books i felt everything with the exception of the bards using light armor without casting failure was pure capitalistic corruption to put out 3 new core books and a slew of new revamped options books and take alot more money for little quality change. So I have real haste which lets me take an extra move or atk action meaning I ran up to you and had a full atk action sundering your weapon for certain and having spring atk still ran away quite effectivly with my super speed while you are sitting there going " But... you broke me great great great grandfathers axe!" Which likely could break a young dwarfs morale poor little hairy guy, lucky now he understands the skills of an elf warrior respects me and now we can group together on the quest the DM made but couldnt get going due to our natural racial dislikes( which we always Rped to the fullest). Sure maybe you won init was smart enough to ready a single atk for when i closed with you and maybe with your strength which is certain to be lower then my dex in most real stat placemtn from random dice rolled stats( wwhich granted could of favored the dwarf as randomess can) you might get that one hit on me injurying me, maybe you tried a trip which I likely did not fall to with my higher Dex vs Str. But all your side requires alot of dice luck where as mine is the one who trust in the way of Rudd lady of luck through perfection of skills.

Not to mention the often made and valid point that in DDO dwarves jsut dont ahve to work hard for their overwhelming melee bonuses, elves and drow enhancments are largely a joke, especially when I meet plenty of human wizards who keep up fine with the elf ones.

[Karavek]

Hey ofocurse Im a fan of elven heroes in novels and a few of my characters as well as my Rp style reflect waht is considered elven behavior by the majority of elf fans.

Now you telling me you dwarf lovers dont idolize Gimli, Bruenor, and ofcourse most famous of all Dwarves Dorf son of Derf son of Darf son of Duff son of a nice dark ale a wench and an unknown battle rager actually taht last one was my own favorite dwarf in Pnp and the only one I ever played and enjoyed enough to keep going wiht for a whole campaghn career.

[Aesop]

Dwarves got the lions share as far as enhancements go. Especially in the Warrior/Divine line of things

Weapon Enhancements that affect a single type of damage (slashing) but a wider range (Ranged, Two Handed, Two Weapon, Weapon and Shield styles) than any other group in an Attack and a Damage line.

Tactics bonuses that affects all tactical lines thus working better than the fighter lines.

SP bonus when using Divine Caster Class

HP bonus that is as good as a Barbarians

couple that with the 3-4 points of Con that a dwarf can have over even a human counterpart and you have serious HP inflation

Shield Enhancement line to increase the DR from blocking ... which only dwarves can get making them take less damage

Dwarven Armor Mastery which mimics a Fighters (though I think 1 less) but stacks with a fighters

yeah Dwarves really were someones "Happy Time"

Then again I've been saying that since this enhancement system went live... Dwarven Enhancements are overpowered relative to the rest of the races... and in some cases relative to the classes

Aesop

[geezee]

For some reason, the OP left out the single most overpowered enhancement in the game: Dwarven toughness. I'm still trying to figure out how it makes any sense giving dwarves another 50 hp besides all their other imbalanced advantages.

So I rolled a dwarf, figuring they will never fix it...

[Yaga_Nub]

For some reason, the OP left out the single most overpowered enhancement in the game: Dwarven toughness. I'm still trying to figure out how it makes any sense giving dwarves another 50 hp besides all their other imbalanced advantages.

So I rolled a dwarf, figuring they will never fix it...

I did as well thinking just the opposite. As soon as I get my dorf to a respectable level, they will nerf dorfs.

[Shyver]

Also bonuses from dodge, and chattering ring won't stack. They're both DODGE bonuses. You take the +3, and since it's better your +1 goes away.

I scrolled through to page 6 and was surpised someone didn't jump on this. Sorry if it got mentioned after that. But:

DODGE BONUSES DO STACK. Dodge feat + chattering ring + chaosguards = +6 to AC.

As to the argument. Yes, dwarves are strong fighters. But the bottom line is if you enjoy your character you enjoy your character.

My main is a 13 Ranger/2 Fighter/1 Wizard two-weapon finese 28 pt. elf and I'd put him head to head against any other warrior IN A QUEST. I don't care what your to hit is, what your AC is, how much you can crit for. If you don't don't play well and smart then it doesn't matter at all. Thats great that dwarves are super strong ON PAPER, but what's on paper a lot of the time doesn't translate into the game.

Play the game to have fun and to be unique, not to be just another cookie cutter everyone's built equal toon. Turn your toon into a character and enjoy the game.