Elf combat melee classes. Why bother?

[MysticTheurge]

I'd choose Warforged!

They're cheap and they don't have "families" to "complain" when they "die."

**** families. /shake-fist

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Question: Do you want a burly elf? High Str, high Con elf? is that what you want to build? Because that is what almost all of the comparison numbers are based on.....well that and a high Dex dwarf.

Now I'm not saying that dwarves don't have an advantage in this game....expecially in melee combat, which the game is slighted toward anyway.
But if I wanted to build a toon to be str and con based, I would not choose an elf for this role.
Now, if I want to build a dex based toon, then I would choose an elf. I would also put a higher Int on my elf so I could use the combat expertise line of feats......because that seems more like the fantasy elven warrior to me.

That being said, I have long thought that dexed based warriors of any type are gimped in this game. Ranged combat is broke and finesse fighting is way, way behind str based figting styles (except rapiers of puncturing/banishing etc....yes I know that).

I don't want my elf to have the same HP as a dwarf.....it just doesn't seem right to me. But I also don't want my dwarf to have the dex of an elf......

All theories aside, how many people have high Str/Con elves or high Dex Dwarves? And if you have a high dex dwarf, how do you build one with a high Str and Con too? Str is where it is at for melee in this game. There is no comparison to a high Str dwarf with a big dwarven axe in DDO.....it rules, it rocks.....it's the best DPSer I know........it's also not my style.

I wish my high dex elf archer/finesse Ftr could out DPS the dwaven axe slashers....I really really wish this.

I think this is where the argument should be focused......not on making them equal, but on making the ranged and finesse figting styles better and more able to compeat.
I also wish there was a better Ftr/Wiz option for an elf that could get some serious kills as well.
All fantasies aside, the so called support classes are not needed in this game. CC aside. Rangers and elf Ftr/Wiz or finess archers are not needed or even desired by many in most dungeons.
(don't slam me for saying that....I love Rangers and think they are under rated, but that's another post)

[woodspider]

Yep. Dwarves got some issues.

They seem relatively easy to fix, to me. Though no one (who plays a dwarf) is going to like them.

Dwarven Axe Enhancements --> Change to only affect Dwarven Axes.

Dwarven Armor Mastery --> Change to Dwarven Armored Agility. (i.e. Reduce Armor Check Penalty instead of increase Max Dex)

Dwarven Spell Defense --> Change like Halfling Luck to be three lines, one for each save.

Dwarven Tactics --> Actually, I don't have a huge problem with this one. It seems to fit alright. But if dwarves still seem overpowered after the above, you could make this three lines, like they are for fighters.

I could care less about all these except armor mastery, I designed my fighter with this in mind and it would make his High dex almost useless.

[Yaga_Nub]

I could care less about all these except armor mastery, I designed my fighter with this in mind and it would make his High dex almost useless.

I think that's what the OP was griping about though. Why would a dwarf have a high dex? It's not in the "spirit" of traditional DnD.

I don't have a problem with it though because you had to give up on other things to get that high dex.

[EinarMal]

All theories aside, how many people have high Str/Con elves or high Dex Dwarves? And if you have a high dex dwarf, how do you build one with a high Str and Con too? Str is where it is at for melee in this game. There is no comparison to a high Str dwarf with a big dwarven axe in DDO.....it rules, it rocks.....it's the best DPSer I know........it's also not my style.

I wish my high dex elf archer/finesse Ftr could out DPS the dwaven axe slashers....I really really wish this.

I think this is where the argument should be focused......not on making them equal, but on making the ranged and finesse figting styles better and more able to compeat.
I also wish there was a better Ftr/Wiz option for an elf that could get some serious kills as well.
All fantasies aside, the so called support classes are not needed in this game. CC aside. Rangers and elf Ftr/Wiz or finess archers are not needed or even desired by many in most dungeons.
(don't slam me for saying that....I love Rangers and think they are under rated, but that's another post

I don't think anyone is saying they should be equal, 3.5 rules dictate that they are not and there are racial differences built in. Dwarfs do get higher Con (and even a Con enhancement) as well as other things while elf's get higher dex.

There are a lot of things in the enhancement system that violate (in some peoples opinions) the balances that were pretty good in 3.5. No where in any rule book will you find toughness enhancements that give Dwarfs at level 14 50 extra hit points over an elf (the equivalent of about +8 to Con). So, if you just look at toughness enhancements alone that would be put (in terms of hit points) the dwarf +2 (starting stats) +2 (enhancement) +8(toughness enhancement) = +12 Con over an elf.

Hmm might be a bit much maybe?

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Didnt see the OP mentioning Dwarven CON enhancements....

[MysticTheurge]

I could care less about all these except armor mastery, I designed my fighter with this in mind and it would make his High dex almost useless.

Yeah, the problem, though, is that there are people who would care about each and every one of those.

Except for toughness (which should be brought back in line with the rest of the enhancement system) Dwarves can keep their enhancements for all I care. But they've got to really get some enhancements pushed out that would put the other races on par with Dwarves.

[Twerpp]

Yeah, the problem, though, is that there are people who would care about each and every one of those.

Except for toughness (which should be brought back in line with the rest of the enhancement system) Dwarves can keep their enhancements for all I care. But they've got to really get some enhancements pushed out that would put the other races on par with Dwarves.

They are on par, just not in melee hit points, the game was never designed for every race to be exact equals in every class, and neither is PnP. This is from the character creation screen maybe it will make you realize that this is exactly how it was intended.

"Dwarves are known for their skill in warfare, their ability to withstand physical and magical punishment, their knowledge of the earth's secrets, their hard work, and their capacity for drinking ale"

"Elves are known for their poetry, dance, song, lore and magical arts. Elves favor things of nature and simple beauty. When danger threatens their woodland homes, however, elves reveal a more martial side, demonstrating their skill with sword, bow, and battle strategy"

Ok so yes it does say that elves can fight, but it's hardly the headliner as it is in the dwarfs case its the very first line. In the elves first line it says poetry..magical arts.Theres a reason for it they make much better casters than they do front-line melee combatants. Perhaps theres a good reason the devs put these descriptions on the very first character generation screen you see?

I don't see why you take issue with dwarven toughness, is it so unbelievable to you that a 200 lb dwarf could have 50 more hit points than an 80 lb elf of the same class? Especially in a game where everyone is granted 20 extra at level one, 10 extra upon favor, and goblinoids have nearly 500.

[EinarMal]

They are on par, just not in melee hit points, the game was never designed for every race to be exact equals in every class, and neither is PnP. This is from the character creation screen maybe it will make you realize that this is exactly how it was intended

In PnP 3.5 the differences between an elf fighter and dwarf fighter are in starting stats and a few minor racial perks. So, they are very even with Dwarfs having a slight advantage because of better Con.

Yes I do find +50 hit points above PnP rules to be completely unbelieivable.

[Yaga_Nub]

They are on par, just not in melee hit points, the game was never designed for every race to be exact equals in every class, and neither is PnP. This is from the character creation screen maybe it will make you realize that this is exactly how it was intended.

"Dwarves are known for their skill in warfare, their ability to withstand physical and magical punishment, their knowledge of the earth's secrets, their hard work, and their capacity for drinking ale"

So you're saying they should make an enhancement that reduces their blood/alcohol level?

"Elves are known for their poetry, dance, song, lore and magical arts. Elves favor things of nature and simple beauty. When danger threatens their woodland homes, however, elves reveal a more martial side, demonstrating their skill with sword, bow, and battle strategy"

Using your logic, should elves get an elven enhancement like dwarf/wf combat tactics that increases their bonuses to trip/stunning blow/etc.? The screen says that elves have battle strategy skills.

Ok so yes it does say that elves can fight, but it's hardly the headliner as it is in the dwarfs case its the very first line. In the elves first line it says poetry..magical arts.Theres a reason for it they make much better casters than they do front-line melee combatants. Perhaps theres a good reason the devs put these descriptions on the very first character generation screen you see?

Which is more important? That something be mentioned on the first line of the first screen or just on the first screen?

I don't see why you take issue with dwarven toughness, is it so unbelievable to you that a 200 lb dwarf could have 50 more hit points than an 80 lb elf of the same class?

Actually yeah, because I've seen a 140 lbs man kick the living **** out of a 240 lbs man before. Weight doesn't determine toughness.

Especially in a game where everyone is granted 20 extra at level one, 10 extra upon favor, and goblinoids have nearly 500.

comments in red

[MysticTheurge]

They are on par, just not in melee hit points...

No they're not. See above reference to thread where Dwarves were shown to have a mechanical advantage for just about every single type of build you can think of.

[Mercules]

In PnP 3.5 the differences between an elf fighter and dwarf fighter are in starting stats and a few minor racial perks. So, they are very even with Dwarfs having a slight advantage because of better Con.

Yes I do find +50 hit points above PnP rules to be completely unbelieivable.

Well, they also have the fact that they don't slow down in Medium/Heavy armor. Yes this means they are running the same speed as an Elf in Full Plate, but there normal slow speed balances out other advantages they have over Elves. They still have better saves vrs. spells and poisons, and such. Access to an exotic weapon as a martial weapon(The elven weapon advantages do not help Fighters at all). And if they want to cross class they don't have to worry about an XP hit for unbalanced classes, the Elven Fighter/Rogue, Fighter/Cleric, Fighter(anything but Wizard) does.

[Mercules]

No they're not. See above reference to thread where Dwarves were shown to have a mechanical advantage for just about every single type of build you can think of.

Finesse/Throwing build? Really? Wounding/Puncturing build? Really? Heavy Repeater build? Really?

[Twerpp]

No they're not. See above reference to thread where Dwarves were shown to have a mechanical advantage for just about every single type of build you can think of.

I wonder why Ive only seen about 2 14th level dwarven casters then? And at least a few hundred drow and elven ones. I guess all those casters are inferior to the few dwarves out there?

You don't honestly think that dwarves are better for every build there is do you?

[Emili]

They are
I don't see why you take issue with dwarven toughness, is it so unbelievable to you that a 200 lb dwarf could have 50 more hit points than an 80 lb elf of the same class? Especially in a game where everyone is granted 20 extra at level one, 10 extra upon favor, and goblinoids have nearly 500.

Why? Why is it that a dwarf with the same feat as another race and having the same con is granted the ability in spending AP's to gain more HP's just for being a dwarf? This and others had always been my viewpoint of the enhancement line... The enhancements in DDO over-shadow the feats, Hmmm +2 to-hit, +2 to-damages with a weapon due to race beyond what is in the SRD? Pulling dex mod to ac out of the air due to race? Pulling SP out of the air due to race? Favored class does not mean this... In DnD there is equal opportunity for all races in all classes. DDO skews the equal opportunity.

[jjflanigan]

No they're not. See above reference to thread where Dwarves were shown to have a mechanical advantage for just about every single type of build you can think of.

But that thread and most of the opinions are purely that...opinions. Regardless of having some more hitpoints, you will never convince me that a dwarven spellcaster (especially a sorc) is on par with an elven or drow one. Additionally, if you are doing any multi-class fighter / caster type, the elven and drow enhancements to reduce arcane spell failure massively trump the extra hit points and feat DC bonuses you'd get as a dwarf (in my opinion).

All of this arguing is based on what certain people feel is useful. I have many non-dwarven characters and I am confident that given a challenge in a one on one competition I will be able to perform just as well as the dwarven versions if not better in many circumstances.

[Mercules]

Why? Why is it that a dwarf with the same feat as another race and having the same con is granted the ability in spending AP's to gain more HP's just for being a dwarf? This and others had always been my viewpoint of the enhancement line... The enhancements in DDO over-shadow the feats, Hmmm +2 to-hit, +2 to-damages with a weapon due to race beyond what is in the SRD? Pulling dex mod to ac out of the air due to race? Pulling SP out of the air due to race? Favored class does not mean this... In DnD there is equal opportunity for all races in all classes. DDO skews the equal opportunity.

Yes, the Enhancements are STILL broken, but less so than the previous system. Why is a Fighter innately stronger than a Paladin? Why does a Ranger have more options for dex than the finesse built Fighter?

Part of the problem is that DDO assumes what classes various races are meant for and then gives them enhancements that match. The other part is as you said, that an Enhancement has more weight than a feat although feats are rarer and universal. Some people loose out in multi-classing by not considering enhancements in with every other consideration for deciding how many levels of what class.

Enhancements are very powerful. Not Dwarven enhancements are out of line. Enhancements are out of line.

[Aesop]

Dwarves get the lion share of the enhancments. There weak point is charisma (and by extrension Charisma casting). Is it possible to make non dwarven characters very good... yes. Is it possible to mke dwarven characters bad... sure. The dwarven enhancments are still on average better than the other races. Most notably for the Melee Combat classes. THe Axe enhancments are one enhancment that covers mulitple aspects of combat including light weapon, two handed ranged and sword and board... this is superior to the elven wweapon enhancments. And possibly superior to the halfling weapon enhancements. The dwarven clerics get more SP. The fighters... well get many of the melee enhancments... Just in shear number of enhancements the dwarves are superior... now If they were to add in some more enhancments for the other races I'm sure that the balance would shift back to the middle... but that depends on what they add and to whom...


Anyway Dwarves got a major boost from the Enhancement line...


This reminds me of the Threads like DDO stands for Drow and Dwarves Online

Aesop

[Jarlaxel]

In pnp elf fighters are on par with dwarven fighters. In ddo, a dwarf fighter clearly outperforms an elf fighter. Don't tear down the dwarf but increase the elf to perform on par.

The arguement elves make better casters is irrelevant to the ops messege. The messege is in regarding melee based classes and the unbalance between the two.

[Mercules]

In pnp elf fighters are on par with dwarven fighters. In ddo, a dwarf fighter clearly outperforms an elf fighter. Don't tear down the dwarf but increase the elf to perform on par.

The arguement elves make better casters is irrelevant to the ops messege. The messege is in regarding melee based classes and the unbalance between the two.

But then next we will be complaining that even 32 point Warforged are not as good at being a Paladin as Drow because of their stat negatives and reduction in being healed by Cure spells. Where does the argument end?