Barding Rogue

[~Jules921]

I have a pure rogue that I built as a 32pt elf - I'm finding that my multi-class rogues are more useful to the party than my single classed rogue. Below is one that I'm thinking of rolling up. Looking for suggestions on it. The +2 con tome is an con item. No actual tomes were used in the making of this build but I do have a couple that can be use (con - wis- dex). The sorc level is strictly for spell points boost. It can be dropped to either another level of rog or bard. The Enhancements may be re-done to get music of making instead of the wand mastery.

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BardingRogue 
Level 14 Neutral Good Drow Female
(2 Rogue \ 1 Sorcerer \ 11 Bard) 
Hit Points: 116
Spell Points: 775 
BAB: 9\9\14
Fortitude: 4
Reflex: 13
Will: 9

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 14)
Strength             12                    12
Dexterity            16                    16
Constitution         10                    12
Intelligence         16                    16
Wisdom               10                    10
Charisma             16                    21

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 1

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 14)
Balance               5                     7
Bluff                 3                     5
Concentration         1                    11
Diplomacy             3                     9
Disable Device        7                    23
Haggle                7                    17
Heal                  2                     2
Hide                  5                    10
Intimidate            3                     5
Jump                  5                     8
Listen                2                     6
Move Silently         7                    15
Open Lock             7                    16
Perform               n/a                  25
Repair                3                     3
Search                7                    21
Spot                  4                     9
Swim                  1                     1
Tumble                5                     5
Use Magic Device      7                    22

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Listen (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Drow Spell Resistance
Feat: (Automatic) Elven Keen Senses
Feat: (Automatic) Enchantment Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Immunity to Sleep
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Spell Save Bonus (Drow)
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I

Level 2 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Fascinate
Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Courage
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longsword
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Wild Empathy
Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Elven Perception I
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes I
Enhancement: Bard Perform I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I

Level 3 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Negotiator
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Spell (1): Focusing Chant
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I

Level 4 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Competence
Spell (1): Otto's Resistable Dance
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently I

Level 5 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Glitterdust
Spell (2): Blur
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Bard Perform II

Level 6 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Nimble Fingers
Spell (1): Hypnotism
Spell (2): Heroism
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I

Level 7 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Suggestion
Enhancement: Virtuoso I

Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion (Rogue)
Enhancement: Elven Perception II
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes II

Level 9 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training
Spell (1): Mage Armor
Spell (1): Repair Light Damage
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II

Level 10 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds
Spell (3): Good Hope
Spell (3): Haste
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song III
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery I

Level 11 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Inspire Courage
Spell (3): Displacement
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II

Level 12 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Greatness
Enhancement: Bard Spell Penetration I

Level 13 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Charm Monster
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
Spell (4): Otto's Sphere of Dancing
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song IV
Enhancement: Bard Music of the Dead

Level 14 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Dimension Door
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded I
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery II
Enhancement: Bard Wand Heightening I

Jules

[geezee]

You didnt say what the character is supposed to do, but I assume you want a trap monkey who is more useful to the party than a pure rogue. You have the right idea, but this toon maybe needs some tweaking. As many things as a bard is able to do, it's important not to spread yourself too thin.

1) More CON. Even 1 more point will help this guy.

2) TWF without finesse on a 12 STR toon with a low BAB doesnt make much sense. Youre gonna miss too often the way the toon is now. Drop TWF, raise STR, take finesse, drop the sorc level, or any of the above.

3) Drop the sorc level. Some say it's worth it on a bard, but on this toon it's even more marginal. The sorc level hurts your cc spells because of SR, your melee, and your skills.

4) Dont put points into WIS on a bard. This maybe the only hard rule I use for bard creation. With the new feat coming up in mod 6, it becomes more of a a no-brainer.


Beyond these recommendations, you need to really define what the character is supposed to do. Traps and melee? Traps and cc? I would even consider taking a couple more rogue levels and dropping INT and maybe even a rogue skill feat or 2. You may also want to multi with ranger, barb, or fighter. Compared to other casting classes, you dont lose as much on a bard when you take more non-bard levels. But multiclass bard isnt so great with cc spells because of SR, so you may want to focus on melee and traps.

Check Einer Mal's Build Depository thread a page or 2 back on the bard board for some good bard/rogue ideas. It's about time someone bumped that thread anyway.

Have fun.

[~Jules921]

I knew she was going to be gimp'd - is this any better

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.75
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BardingRogue 
Level 14 Neutral Good Drow Female
(3 Rogue \ 11 Bard) 
Hit Points: 118
Spell Points: 515 
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 5
Reflex: 13
Will: 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 14)
Strength             14                    14
Dexterity            16                    16
Constitution         10                    12
Intelligence         16                    16
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             16                    21

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 1


                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 14)
Balance               5                     7
Bluff                 3                     5
Concentration         1                    12
Diplomacy             3                     7
Disable Device        7                    22
Haggle                7                    15
Heal                  1                     1
Hide                  5                    10
Intimidate            3                     5
Jump                  6                     9
Listen                1                     5
Move Silently         7                    15
Open Lock             7                    14
Perform               n/a                  28
Repair                3                     3
Search                7                    24
Spot                  3                     9.5
Swim                  2                     2
Tumble                5                     5
Use Magic Device      7                    23

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I

Level 2 (Bard)
Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Elven Perception I
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes I
Enhancement: Bard Perform I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I

Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Spell (1): Focusing Chant
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I

Level 4 (Bard)
Spell (1): Otto's Resistable Dance
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently I

Level 5 (Bard)
Spell (2): Glitterdust
Spell (2): Blur
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Bard Perform II

Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Perform
Spell (1): Hypnotism
Spell (2): Heroism
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I

Level 7 (Bard)
Enhancement: Virtuoso I

Level 8 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Elven Perception II
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes II

Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds
Spell (3): Haste
Spell (3): Good Hope
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II

Level 10 (Bard)
Spell (3): Displacement
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song III
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery I

Level 11 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II

Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Spell (4): Otto's Sphere of Dancing
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
Spell (3): Charm Monster
Enhancement: Bard Spell Penetration I

Level 13 (Bard)
Spell (4): Dimension Door
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song IV
Enhancement: Bard Music of the Dead

Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Bard Music of Makers
Enhancement: Bard Wand Heightening I

[EinarMal]

I would drop mental toughness for ITWF or take ITWF at level 15 for sure. You really need to invest at least up to ITWF to start to see it pay off over just going with a sword/shield setup. You will have some sneak damage and your Bard buffs so you want to make those pay off with at least another offhand attack with ITWF. You would need a +1 dex tome or a level up in dex. Or just drop TWF and go with a shield and take something like SF Enchantment.

I think you might be trying to do a few too many things at once with this build you need to really pick two to focus on. Right now you have rogue skiils, CC casting, and melee I think you might want to just either go casting or melee in additon to your rogue skills. Three things are tough to balance, you need too many stats to do them all as right now you need int, charisma, con, dex, and even strength for damage!

This might be a good candidate for just dropping strength to 8, move con up to 12 (I think every build needs this in my opinion) and just go with weapon finesse and drop TWF. You won't be a melee powerhouse, but you can stat damage and debuff. That will allow you to focus more feats on casting and maybe bump charisma another point. If casting/rogue is the way you want to go.

Otherwise I think you have to drop casting way back and buff up the fighitng aspect which is the build I went with 10/4 Bard/Rogue in my build thread.

I don't think you can manage all three though the stat requirements are too much when you throw in the rogue skills. The way you have it now with just TWF and low Con you are going to struggle fighting up close, and your CC casting will be behind as well. I think if you pick casting or fighting you could get either one up to the very good range while doing the rogue stuff.

I might go for a casting/rogue something like:
Str 8
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 16
Cha 18

Feats:
1-Weapon Finesse
3-SF Enchantment
6-SF Perform (Virtuoso if that is what you want)
9-Extend
12-GSF Enchantment or Spell Penetration or Mental Toughness

Why 8 strength and weapon finesse, well even as you had it you would be way behind in DPS, this allows you to still fight and contribute but you are looking at destruction/wounding/cursespewing style weapons. The other option would be to replace weapon finesse with heavy repeater and just use that for your debuff attacks. At the same time you will be 10% more effective on your CC spells which is nice. You will have to worry about spell penetration so you would have to take the feat or carry an item and enhancements.

Again this is only if you want to be mostly casting/buffing + rogue skills which is kind of what it looked like.

[~Jules921]

I'm not intending for her to do heavy melee - but I know with my existing bards that shields will cause spell failure. If I'm not going to be using a shield at least I can hold a power item in my off hand and not have neg to hit numbers with it. So her focus is dd/ol - cc/buffs - healing. In that order. I may re-take the lvl of sorc for the additional spell points - still debating it.

Jules

[EinarMal]

I'm not intending for her to do heavy melee - but I know with my existing bards that shields will cause spell failure. If I'm not going to be using a shield at least I can hold a power item in my off hand and not have neg to hit numbers with it. So her focus is dd/ol - cc/buffs - healing. In that order. I may re-take the lvl of sorc for the additional spell points - still debating it.

Jules

Not if you use light mithral shields, those are the ones you want to look for. They have 0% ASF. The thing is if you are fighting with casting weapons like you say then you might as well not bother. You will be doing so little damage compared to everyone else that you will just be putting yourself in danger for no reason.

[~Jules921]

I intend to keep out of everyone's way

[EinarMal]

Good luck! Use your feats wisely as they are very important for builds who get only 7 to level 20. I personally would never take TWF without the intent to melee a lot and take at least ITWF as well. To me you are wasting a feat that could be better used elsewhere for the build as you have it. But you are of course free to do whatever you want.

[~Jules921]

I have taken your advise and rolled her without the twf. I need a BAB of 1 for weapons finess so can't take it until lvl 3 feat.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.75
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Bar-rogue 
Level 14 Neutral Good Drow Female
(2 Rogue \ 12 Bard) 
Hit Points: 118
Spell Points: 607 
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 5
Reflex: 14
Will: 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 14)
Strength             11                    12
Dexterity            15                    16
Constitution         10                    12
Intelligence         16                    16
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             18                    24

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 1
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 1


                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 14)
Balance               5                     8
Bluff                 4                     7
Concentration         1                    14.5
Diplomacy             4                    11
Disable Device        7                    20
Haggle                8                    17
Heal                  0                     0
Hide                  7                    10
Intimidate            4                     7
Jump                  5                     9
Listen                1                     5
Move Silently         7                    13
Open Lock             7                    15
Perform               n/a                  27
Repair                3                     3
Search                7                    21
Spot                  3                     9
Swim                  1                     1
Tumble                5                     5
Use Magic Device      8                    24

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Listen (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Negotiator
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Elven Perception I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I

Level 2 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Bard Perform I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I

Level 3 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Spell (1): Focusing Chant
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery I

Level 4 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Otto's Resistable Dance
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I

Level 5 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Blur
Spell (2): Glitterdust
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes I

Level 6 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Spell (1): Hypnotism
Spell (2): Heroism
Enhancement: Bard Perform II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II

Level 7 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Virtuoso I

Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Concentration (+0.5)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+3)
Skill: Search (+3)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II

Level 9 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration
Spell (3): Good Hope
Spell (3): Displacement
Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Bard Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Bard Wand Heightening I

Level 10 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Perform (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Haste
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Fluidity I

Level 11 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II

Level 12 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Spell (4): Otto's Sphere of Dancing
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
Spell (3): Charm Monster
Enhancement: Bard Charisma III

Level 13 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Perform (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Dimension Door
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III

Level 14 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1.5)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song III
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery II