TWF Deadly Singer Build

[nbhs275]

Dwarfs are definitely uber, but that can certainly come and go and for Bards it is one of the weaker classes for dwarfs due to charisma obviously. They are a good choice for two handed battle bards, but not as good for other types of builds.

I do not think song buffs do anything for glancing blows, but not 100% sure (maybe like 99.2%)

I think they do affect glancing blows. Ive seen on my paladin the Divine favor seems to go onto them, as well as songs. When i boost damage to the max<50+ on normal hits> that his glancing blows are for about 24, but my strength is also boosted in that state, so its up in the air whats actually causing it.

TWF is good for aggro management, which is why i love it on my barbarian. Kill one target extremely quickly without always drawing additional aggro. Though on the bard, it doesnt seem to really matter with the smattering of CC i have to use. Fear is great for just thining the ranks, without always stopping all of the melee dps. Because with the Torc on, endless mana is just an orges club away!

[maddmatt70]

Very good point about the Torc. That is probably the best raid loot in the game for a battle bard or battle cleric..... Endless supplies of mana..

[EinarMal]

I think they do affect glancing blows. Ive seen on my paladin the Divine favor seems to go onto them, as well as songs. When i boost damage to the max<50+ on normal hits> that his glancing blows are for about 24, but my strength is also boosted in that state, so its up in the air whats actually causing it.

TWF is good for aggro management, which is why i love it on my barbarian. Kill one target extremely quickly without always drawing additional aggro. Though on the bard, it doesnt seem to really matter with the smattering of CC i have to use. Fear is great for just thining the ranks, without always stopping all of the melee dps. Because with the Torc on, endless mana is just an orges club away!

You could be totally right on glancing blows, I thought they were not affected but I am no expert on that. I know elemental damage no longer works, but beyond that I am not sure how they are calculated.

[A_Sheep]

Dwarfs are definitely uber, but that can certainly come and go and for Bards it is one of the weaker classes for dwarfs due to charisma obviously. They are a good choice for two handed battle bards, but not as good for other types of builds.

I do not think song buffs do anything for glancing blows, but not 100% sure (maybe like 99.2%)

Glancing blows are based on your base damage, so the song buff gives an indirect bonus to glancing blows (with GTHF, glancing blow is 40% of base damage, so +8 to damage would be +3-4 to glancing blow damage.).

[EinarMal]

Glancing blows are based on your base damage, so the song buff gives an indirect bonus to glancing blows (with GTHF, glancing blow is 40% of base damage, so +8 to damage would be +3-4 to glancing blow damage.).

Good to know, thanks A_Sheep.

[EinarMal]

There seems to be some confusion as to what this build is and isn't so thought I would clarify a few things from my experience.

Q: What is the main purpose of this build?
A: This is a battle Bard first and foremost that does very good DPS, at level 15 with GTWF you will be at around 90 DPS with +5 holy weapons. This compares very well with max strength two handed warchanters and also other melee characters.

Q: So how much DPS are you giving up by not going 100&#37; melee?
A: About 30-40% below what is possible with a TWF Bard (ignoring sneak attacks)

Q: So why bother with charisma/spellsinger?
A: It helps to add utility and other dimensions to the build that I find often very useful. Very heavy melee focus is not without cost, to get that extra 30-40% DPS you give up ~200 or more spell points and +4 DC or more to crowd control spells. Not to mention about 3-7 less UMD and charisma related skills.

Q: Will your CC spells work at high levels?
A: Most likely yes, with only -4 ability points (-2 bonus) to max charisma builds and the ability to take SF Enchantment and Heighten or GSF Enchantment spell DC should be very solid at end game.

Q: How do you play this build differently than a max strength DPS build?
A: Really what happens before the fight is the difference. If it is a moving battle then I will often cast Fear/Mass Suggestion (when I get it) to eliminate mobs from the fight quickly to reduce party damage. If it is a prep type fight I will cast otto's dance. Then you fight just like any battle Bard.

Q: Do you heal?
A: One nice thing about this build is the extra spell points that I do not need for self buffing. This allows me to cast buffs on others like displacement more frequently and also cast cure critical when needed without fear of running out of spell points to buff myself.

Q: Is this build better than the Icy or Taal build, or a two handed warchanter, two handed balanced Bard etc...?
A: No! I think it compares nicely to other builds and trades off well. IF you like being able to heal/buff others but still fight well, and also help with spell based crowd control it is a good option. There is no perfect build but I think this one does well for what it was intended to do (which is all you can do really) because there is no one optimal build that does everything better.

Q: Why do you need CC spells just use fascinate?
A: Fascinate is awesome and I do use it often, however it is not always practical and breaks upon attack. Ottos is nice in that of course you can still attack mobs while they are dancing, fear is nice in that it is very fast to cast and you can also attack them while feared. Mass sugggestion/charms are nice in that they take mobs out of the fight and provide distraciton to the other mobs as well. So, basically it just fills out your CC capability.

If anyone has any other questions I would be happy to answer them....

[maddong]

I don't think the hp are a problem at level 10 because at that point you have got your heavy fort item from BAM.

I agree with spellsinger. My 2 hander battle bard respeced to it (from warchanter) after the metamagic enhancement change and picked up emp healing. It is nice dropping 100 hp cure crits and 40 hp mass cures and having the mana to do it as well as cast a little after buffing. He was an 18 10 12 10 8 16 drow with all points going into strength.

On this build I would probably drop mental toughness for empower healing. Metamagics are so powerful now.

[maddmatt70]

One other advantage of this build that you should mention einar is you have the ability to switch it up and alter it very easily especailly if you need to become more melee in the future. If your cc spells are not working in the next mod you can swap out feats, etc. and become a warchanter with power attack, etc although you would be light in the hp/ surviveablity category, but you do have that option and hence could become more of a buff and song bard with decent melee. That is the advantage of going straight bard and a nice aspect of this build. I prefer it over the icy build (primary difference is your a spell singer) because you can more adequately fill the cc role/ healing role when the going get rough in terms of surviveability...

[EinarMal]

On this build I would probably drop mental toughness for empower healing. Metamagics are so powerful now.

That is definitely a viable alternative if you like healing and want to do that often. I honestly try and avoid that role as much as possible! I do heal myself and others when needed but prefer not to have the burden of keeping track of everyone while I am fighting. Even without that feat it is a nice thing to be able to cure yourself with cure critical for 50-60 hit points pretty much instantly. It is one of the big differences that makes a 230 end game hit point battle Bard viable.

I think of that as temporary hit points, so in addition to displacement and stoneskin you have for all practical purposes another 50 hit points if you need it. I will also use heal scrolls when I get the UMD high enough to use it. That is another big advantage of spellsinger and charisma heal scrolls are really nice to be able to use.

[EinarMal]

One other advantage of this build that you should mention einar is you have the ability to switch it up and alter it very easily especailly if you need to become more melee in the future. If your cc spells are not working in the next mod you can swap out feats, etc. and become a warchanter with power attack, etc although you would be light in the hp/ surviveablity category, but you do have that option and hence could become more of a buff and song bard with decent melee. That is the advantage of going straight bard and a nice aspect of this build. I prefer it over the icy build (primary difference is your a spell singer) because you can more adequately fill the cc role/ healing role when the going get rough in terms of surviveability...

What I think will happen is that in the next Mod I might need to swap out mental toughness for Heighten or SF Enchantment, and possibly think of also dropping extend for the other. That would greatly boost fear (+3 DC), dancing sphere (+3 DC), and Mass Suggestion (+2 DC).

For spell penetration I would use an item and probably pick up some of the enhancements if I need to.

But that is total speculation at this point, as you say I could also drop casting and go even more into melee. I do not think though that I will have to do that personally. I am not that far behind a maxed out caster if I make the changes above, so if I can't land AOE CC spells well enough to use them then that will mean that those spells are pretty much useless in the game for anyone to use.

[EinarMal]

I don't think the hp are a problem at level 10 because at that point you have got your heavy fort item from BAM.

I actually am mostly wearing a fearsome robe of moderate fortification now and find it sufficient at the moment. I hope to get the tapestry helm soon, but might get the BAM helm in the mean time. I do have a heavy fort robe as well but usually wear the fearsome-moderate one.

I haven't had any issues with dieing as I have said from 1-10. I have died a couple of times while soloing, mostly when you get held (as sometimes happens). There have also been the occasional party wipe doing quests above my level. I definitely don't die more than the average melee front liner. I think a lot of that comes with being able to manage agro and moving fast, plus displacement and I do use stoneskin scrolls on occasion (I have to roll a 7 atm to use them). Fearsome also helps out greatly as does the fear spell. I rarely have to fight more than one mob at a time and can kill them pretty quickly so it works out pretty well. Also, being able to heal myself for 50 or so points at the moment with cure critical (need a better devotion item) I essentially have ~170 hit points rather than the ~120 listed on the sheet. There is just no way around how great it is to be able to near instantly heal yourself. I actually can alternate cure mod and critical for quite a bit of quick self healing when I need it. It really does take a lot to kill me, I pretty much have to run out of spell points, then wands, then hit points to die because I can run/jump so fast away from trouble when I need to.

Now don't get me wrong, going into a level 14 quest on elite right now at level 10 with 120 hit points would be suicide for me to try and fight up close in. I need a lot of gear (as do most characters) between now and then to get those hit points and other things up. Once I hit 200+ hit points though with all the other defenses/spells/abilities I feel pretty good about fighting in 99&#37; of cases. It might be that in a handful of quests at a couple of fights I might have to hang back, cast more, debuff/stat damage, or heal but that is a minor issue to me and one of the good points about being versatile.

If I ever am lucky enough to find a couple of w-p weapons I would like to do that rather than DPS anyway. I would grab much less agro if I did something like that. Right now I do pull agro quite a bit off of other melee characters.

[A_Sheep]

If I ever am lucky enough to find a couple of w-p weapons I would like to do that rather than DPS anyway. I would grab much less agro if I did something like that. Right now I do pull agro quite a bit off of other melee characters.

Actually, I think the HP difference due to contitution damage counts for agro purposes, so if you hit a 14 HD monster with wounding twice, then that counts as 14 damage.

Also, I look at wounding/puncturing as being almost equivalent to DPS and I think it is a large DPS enhancement (disclaimer: I hadn't done any of the following calculations until now, so it is news to me as well).

Let's say you're fighting a 20 HD mob and let's also assume that you aren't actually killing it with con damage, but with a combination of con and HP damage (in pure con damage kills DPS is irrelevant).

Puncturing Effect (+2 Bonus): 1d6 con damage/critical hit. 1 pt of con = ~10 HP of damage, so it's 1d6x10 damage. = ~35 damage/critical hit; (best case = rapier = 15-20 = 30&#37; chance of crit, so roughly (very roughly) 10.5 damage/hit average)

Wounding Effect (+3 Bonus): 1 pt con damage/hit. so, ~10 damage/hit.

Elemental/Pure Good effect (+1 Bonus): 1d6/hit ~ 3.5 damage/hit

Holy Effect (+2 Bonus): 2d6/hit ~ 7 damage/hit

Bursting Effect (+2 Bonus): 1d6/hit + (1/2/3)d10 on crit (best case = khopesh = 17-20/x3 crit = 20%*2d10 = 2.2 dmg/hit) = 5.7 dmg/hit total.

+1 bonus: +1/hit, multiplied on criticals (best case = khopesh = 20%*2=0.4) = ~1.4 dmg/hit

Righteousness (+1 bonus): +2/hit (best case = khopesh = 20%*4=0.8) = ~2.8 dmg/hit

So, all in all, puncturing turns out to be the best damage/bonus of all of these (versus 20 HD mobs, scale estimated damage multiplying by (actual HD)/20). Wounding is actually not as good as an elemental enhancement per bonus. But wounding is still better than a +1 bonus (assuming you don't count missing, which would require me to code something for puncturing into my calculator...) and better than a combination of +2 bonus and elemental.

With really high HD (the future), I think it will be really difficult for khopeshes to compete with rapiers in terms of this kind of estimated DPS.

With min lvl 12 weapons, 32 str, +8 dmg from song and seeker +4... (advantage goes more in favor of the rapier as str/damage enhancement goes down)

+4 Holy Khopesh of Pure Good (+7 bonus; lvl 12)
1d8 + 11 str + 5 PA + 8 Song + 4 enh + 3d6= 32.5 base + 10.5; 17-20/x3 crit, 20% chance for +77 dmg = 0.2*77=+15.4 avg.
Total estimated = 58.4 dmg/hit

+2 Wounding Rapier of Puncturing (+7 bonus; lvl 12)
1d6 + 11 Str + 5 PA + 8 Song + 2 enh + (wounding+puncturing) = 30.5 base + 20.5 dmg via con; 15-20/x2 crit, 30% chance for +38.5 damage = 0.3*38.5= 11.55 avg.
Total Estimated = 62.55 dmg/hit

So the +2 wounding/puncturing rapier comes out slightly ahead of a +4 Holy/pure good Khopesh. It'd be nice to make the AC curve, since the khopesh is 2 higher to-hit, but my calc can't handle the con damage stuff yet. In any case, rapiers are free to bards, khopeshes cost a feat. HDs are only going to go up.

[EinarMal]

Actually, I think the HP difference due to contitution damage counts for agro purposes, so if you hit a 14 HD monster with wounding twice, then that counts as 14 damage.

Also, I look at wounding/puncturing as being almost equivalent to DPS and I think it is a large DPS enhancement (disclaimer: I hadn't done any of the following calculations until now, so it is news to me as well).

Let's say you're fighting a 20 HD mob and let's also assume that you aren't actually killing it with con damage, but with a combination of con and HP damage (in pure con damage kills DPS is irrelevant).

Puncturing Effect (+2 Bonus): 1d6 con damage/critical hit. 1 pt of con = ~10 HP of damage, so it's 1d6x10 damage. = ~35 damage/critical hit; (best case = rapier = 15-20 = 30&#37; chance of crit, so roughly (very roughly) 10.5 damage/hit average)

Wounding Effect (+3 Bonus): 1 pt con damage/hit. so, ~10 damage/hit.

Elemental/Pure Good effect (+1 Bonus): 1d6/hit ~ 3.5 damage/hit

Holy Effect (+2 Bonus): 2d6/hit ~ 7 damage/hit

Bursting Effect (+2 Bonus): 1d6/hit + (1/2/3)d10 on crit (best case = khopesh = 17-20/x3 crit = 20%*2d10 = 2.2 dmg/hit) = 5.7 dmg/hit total.

+1 bonus: +1/hit, multiplied on criticals (best case = khopesh = 20%*2=0.4) = ~1.4 dmg/hit

Righteousness (+1 bonus): +2/hit (best case = khopesh = 20%*4=0.8) = ~2.8 dmg/hit

So, all in all, puncturing turns out to be the best damage/bonus of all of these (versus 20 HD mobs, scale estimated damage multiplying by (actual HD)/20). Wounding is actually not as good as an elemental enhancement per bonus. But wounding is still better than a +1 bonus (assuming you don't count missing, which would require me to code something for puncturing into my calculator...) and better than a combination of +2 bonus and elemental.

With really high HD (the future), I think it will be really difficult for khopeshes to compete with rapiers in terms of this kind of estimated DPS.

With min lvl 12 weapons, 32 str, +8 dmg from song and seeker +4... (advantage goes more in favor of the rapier as str/damage enhancement goes down)

+4 Holy Khopesh of Pure Good (+7 bonus; lvl 12)
1d8 + 11 str + 5 PA + 8 Song + 4 enh + 3d6= 32.5 base + 10.5; 17-20/x3 crit, 20% chance for +77 dmg = 0.2*77=+15.4 avg.
Total estimated = 58.4 dmg/hit

+2 Wounding Rapier of Puncturing (+7 bonus; lvl 12)
1d6 + 11 Str + 5 PA + 8 Song + 2 enh + (wounding+puncturing) = 30.5 base + 20.5 dmg via con; 15-20/x2 crit, 30% chance for +38.5 damage = 0.3*38.5= 11.55 avg.
Total Estimated = 62.55 dmg/hit

So the +2 wounding/puncturing rapier comes out slightly ahead of a +4 Holy/pure good Khopesh. It'd be nice to make the AC curve, since the khopesh is 2 higher to-hit, but my calc can't handle the con damage stuff yet. In any case, rapiers are free to bards, khopeshes cost a feat. HDs are only going to go up.

I think you would actually also kill more than you think from dropping mobs to 0 Con at least from what was said in the TWF Barb thread by the guy who dual wields them. Especially when you get another attack for GTWF. It really depends on the ratio of Con to hit points, which I think can get thrown off quite a bit on elite where they raise hit points more than they do their Con score in some cases.

Like I said I only wish I had one! But he seemed to indicate that he kills mobs a lot when without reducing thier hit points to 0. Now he has crit rage enhancements so would kill more quickly, but if you assume every hit then you have something like....for a TWF Bard.

1 = No damage
2-14 = 1 (Wounding)
15-20 = 4.5 (Wounding + Puncturing)

40 Con damage or on average 2 per swing.

So per attack animation you are looking at around 14 con damage (16 when they update GTWF). So, the question is what is the mobs Con/Hit point ratio compared to Con/Damage that you are doing as to which gets them first.

The other thing that is probably happening is mod DR and self healing. You might being doing very little damage from the weapons because of mob DR, just as long as you can do enough to make wounding work you still con damage them. Also, mobs do not heal con damage on themselves but might be continually healing themselves.

[maddong]

The only time I am killing something that can be wound/punct by damage is when I attack something that has already been "softened". Otherwise I con kill it.

[Amabel]

Just wanted to give a thumbs up to the posted build for a fun bard.

My main is a similar flavour (but with 15 STR and 17 CHA), and went the warchanter line. (I also took a level of barb, which I wouldn't do again, although I do love the run speed and I'm not re-rolling. The rage is handy when I'm oom, but not worth splashing for.) I'm hoping the splash doesn't hurt at end game. Does anyone have any thoughts on whether a 1 level splash is likely to be problematic?

If I concentrate on killing I can keep up with all but the best specced fighters, but usually I'm too distracted by doing other things (cc, buffing). I'm +28, +26 to hit with rage spell I think, so DPS is good and my spells almost always land on all but heavily resistant mobs.

So, I have a very similar build to EinerMal's with a warchanter flavour and heartily endorse his approach. I'm also contemplating swapping to spellsinger at some stage, just for the purpose of comparison.

[EinarMal]

Updated for Mod6:

Swapped Extend for Heighten - With level 6 spells available that gives a nice boost to some spells like grease, soundburst and glitterdust. With the prevalance of SR at higher levels these are nice spells to have as they do not have an SR check.

Swapped Mental Toughness for Force of Personality - Nice to not worry about a wisdom item I will get a huge boost to will saves from this. I haven't found spell points to really be an issue.

Overall I really like the way the build is turning out. I have no trouble landing spells like glitterdust currently and have plenty of spell points and DPS. I think it is a fun build to play.

[Bragnor]

Just wanted to thank the OP for a great guide. While I'm sure there are more 'focussed' builds out there that do a specific role better I am really enjoying this setup on my brand new bard (Already almost 8th lvl). I've had a blast so far and my DPS holds up very well against equal level groupmates of any class. In an 'equal' group I tend to have as many, if not more, kills than others. Aggro hasn't been a huge issue as long as tanks are using their intimidate ability... if they don't I have to watch my aggro as I do a crazy ammt of damage when all my buffs are up.

I've played with the spell selection a bit to make myself a tad more 'utility' oriented because I do tend to solo sometimes. But otherwise this has been an awesome build to follow.

OH: It would be nice if you'd list what enhancements to take when to unlock spellsinger as early as possible for newer bards who follow this. I spent over an hour getting everything figured out when I hit 6th and had to reset my enhancements to get it

Thanks again!

[geezee]

Just wondering what feats you ended up with, and how this guy is holding up in the vale? What spells are you using the most?

[EinarMal]

Just wondering what feats you ended up with, and how this guy is holding up in the vale? What spells are you using the most?

I have not spent a ton of time in the vale with this character, I've been leveling a Dwarf Rogue 9/Ranger 6/Fighter 1 tempest TWF build. As far as feats go I have currently

TWF
ITWF
GTWF
IC Piercing
Heighten
Spell penetration

The best spell that I have against devils is glitterdust, which does not require an SR check and works pretty well with a DC 29 area of effect spell.

The one downside that I have found to all melee builds is that DPS is not a great way to go at elite high level content. For example dual vorprals, w-p weapons etc... start to work much better because of the insane amount of hit points mobs have.

So, given that I am not sure I am on the fence on wasting points into strength at all. It works great up through level 14 then becomes much less important. In the end I am sort of thinking now that a dex based build would actually be pretty good since you could get a higher charisma for this build. At current end game DPS is inefficient either way, you are better off with a w-p rapier or just using a couple of vorpral sickles while TWF.

With a dream splitter and green steel I could probably get even higher DC, but I am not much of a loot grinder.

All in all I like playing the build it is a fun character to play.

[Ianim_Watershadow]

So maybe drop STR a little and pop DEX to 18?