The Intimidate Tank of the Future?

[Obitus]

Why ever include a bard? A sorc might be justified for Fod and heal scroll usage(and making perma haste cheaper than pot spam) but a bard brings what to the table? And 3 clerics? Did you run out of sorcs?

Bards provide unparalleled melee damage buffs. A level 14 Warchanter can give the entire party an undispellable +9/+8 attack/damage buff. That's pretty freaking huge in a melee-heavy group (like the first one matt listed).

Bards also have Fascinate, which while certainly situational, is also unsaveable CC. And obviously there are Haste and Displacement buffs; I find Bards are good to have around to hand out those buffs, even if I already have a Sorcerer present. It frees up quite a bit of mana for the Sorcerer to blast.

If built for a melee bias, Bards can also put out some pretty sick DPS, too. They'll never compete with dedicated melee builds who also have the Bard's buffs, but then again, that's sort of the point.

As to the three Clerics, I have no idea. Clerics can do some very serviceable offensive casting though, and they can sub in for meleers in a pinch. Caster-heavy groups become more and more effective as the levels rise, but that's not unexpected to anyone who's played DnD.

edit: Did anyone else find it funny that he objects to using raid items in planning out a build, but thinks using multiple mana pots a quest is everyday play?

Yes, that does seem rather odd.

[maddmatt70]

First, of all I never said anything about sucking mana pots. That is a misconception regarding the dps is your best defense theory. That theory is you kill the enemy before they can do any damage, and hence you save mana. Another theory is efficient mana usage which firewall and blade barrior are the prime current tools. Regardless mana pots are alot more available then raid loot and are in some ways less expensive then heal scrolls if budgeted correctly so they can always be in your back pocket if u need them... I put the 1 barb, 1 cleric, 3 arcane, 1 bard in there in part as it is probably Shade's preferred party. (more clerics for certain dungeons). He makes it work very well - just saying. The 3 cleric/3 arcane party is about having a caster party with a healing mix, but a different combination might be 1 cleric 5 arcanes or 2 clerics 4 arcanes (1 of which is a battle cleric). I am biased regarding bards I admit, but max songs/dps bards or a healing bard instead of a cleric are very efficient characters...

[Mhykke]

Do we have to hash this out again? While your busy intimidating, the dps party (you can't provide the dps of a two hander or two weapon melee so your less then optimal) is onto the next quest and looting those chests because quite frankly a couple of hits kill anything in the game other then a named boss. Ac mattered more in mod2 then it does now Barbarians have the speed advantage and dps right now which are the keys to the kingdom. Clerics and healing bards are broken in regards to healing right now.. yadda yadda.

Some parties that are optimum that I would include: Bard, 4 barbarians, and an arcane (note two weapon fighters or twf rangers could be subbed in there or the right rogues for barbarian). Bard, Barbarian, 4 casters. Barbarian, bard, cleric, 3 arcanes. Barb, cleric, 4 arcanes. 3 clerics and 3 arcanes or some mix of clerics and arcanes with a battle cleric preferred. Warforged party of barbarians and sorcerors (one of the sorc has a umd build for scrolls everybody has dw goggles only thing missing is fom)..

I don't get the "while you're busy intimidating" phrase. Intimidate is an instant animation. You hit the button and start swinging your weapon.

I have both an intimitank and a DPS barb. They both make quests go by faster, for different reasons. The barb just mows through things. Does he need to be thrown a heal here and there? Sure, his AC is pretty bad.

The intimitank gets all the mobs in a compact group, which makes it easier to nuke, grants any rogue auto sneak attack for 6 sec. (increasing party offense on the whole to make up for the deficit of not having that barb), keeps aggro off the raging barb for 6s, keeps aggro off the nuking caster for 6s, etc. This saves heal mana/clerics attention, freeing that cleric to use mana more offensively (again, increasing party offense making up for the lack of barb). This is all while doing decent damage (I'm assuming the intimitank didn't ignore offense completely. I think people make the mistaken assumption that the entire goal of an intimitank is intimidate and shield bash, which isn't the case at all, it's intimidate and fight.)


As an example (assuming standard conceptions of the two melee types), if one is w/ a pug group around lvl 8/9, jumping into TBF on elite (small spaces, hard hitting trolls)... Assume both an intimitank and a dps barb. I would argue the quest would be easier w/ 1 intimitank and 1 barb rather than 2 barbs (depending on other factors mentioned below). On elite, the barb get pounded at that lvl. Cleric needs to keep a close eye. If there is a 2nd barb instead of the tank, the mobs would die faster (ignoring cleric offensive casting and/or the presence of a rogue), but would the cleric be able to keep up with healing both barbs, and the caster? At the rate 1 barb would get hit, I don't think so.

What I think would happen would be the cleric wouldn't be able to keep up healing both barbs, in addition to the sorc....the sorc would have to restrain himself more w/ regards to nuking so as not to get too much aggro (slowing quest down)...one barb would drop, cleric would run out of mana and would have to resort to scrolls/wands/melee using pots, it would get ugly. It's an easy quest, but at that lvl, I think having an intimitank is more optimal than switching him out for another barb. Now, there's lots of other factors to consider, obviously (multiple clerics being able to watch a single barb), but let's just assume what people consider a standard party.

I know doing trial w/ a pug at that lvl on elite, I was glad I wasn't on my barb, b/c my tank made it so we completed w/o a death, and w/ the cleric having mana left over.

That all being said, an intimitank and a barb in the same group is a thing of beauty. Sub optimal? Well, like anything else, depends on the player and depends on what they're doing. Shield bashing everything, even the easy fights? Sure, sub optimal. But if it's someone that knows the class, the intimitank can move parties around fast, in a different manner than the barb. Both, when played well, just add so much to the party.

[Twerpp]

I can see this working, maybe not as well as the traditional ftr/pal mix. I would go 2 barb for another rage (just for fun) and be able to extend it by 25% and another point of con, drop ftr to 10 theres no feat lost and Im not sure which enhancement you needed from 11th..
Dont bother with halfy fort save enhancement your ftr levels provide that and your con is good. Not sure I would bother maxing the reflex saves either as your dex is phenom.
Halfling dragonmarks do make the game a little more interesting, but add to your gear list super dev 6 item, you will want it for when you have time to swap out weapon to heal more effectively or if you need to cover down on healer duties temporarily.

VERY IMPORTANT
Casting a spell ends CE mode, so I would test that before you get to far into your build. Im not sure if Dragonmarks do that but I know you cant use them while in defensive fighting mode or during its cooldown.

With Pierce/finesse spec your DPS will be so low that when your 6 seconds of intimidate are up mobs will leave you for another target(they wont be dead or aggroed on you), leaving you 4 seconds of cringing hoping the sorc doesnt get one shotted. STR based slashing is better but that would gimp your evasion..

The more I look at this build the more I think you should just drop intimidate, pick up a couple more level of rogue and some rogue skills and sneak dice :/

[Twerpp]

Yes, halfers get a size penalty to intimidate. I believe it is also doubled for Giants, so it would be very hard to actually hold agro with this build.

Yeah its -4 per size. Which equates to not a big deal at all with a good build especially one with CHA. Everyone suffers this penalty vs larger classes -4 for each size.

[maddmatt70]

I can see this working, maybe not as well as the traditional ftr/pal mix. I would go 2 barb for another rage (just for fun) and be able to extend it by 25% and another point of con, drop ftr to 10 theres no feat lost and Im not sure which enhancement you needed from 11th..
Dont bother with halfy fort save enhancement your ftr levels provide that and your con is good. Not sure I would bother maxing the reflex saves either as your dex is phenom.
Halfling dragonmarks do make the game a little more interesting, but add to your gear list super dev 6 item, you will want it for when you have time to swap out weapon to heal more effectively or if you need to cover down on healer duties temporarily.

VERY IMPORTANT
Casting a spell ends CE mode, so I would test that before you get to far into your build. Im not sure if Dragonmarks do that but I know you cant use them while in defensive fighting mode or during its cooldown.

With Pierce/finesse spec your DPS will be so low that when your 6 seconds of intimidate are up mobs will leave you for another target(they wont be dead or aggroed on you), leaving you 4 seconds of cringing hoping the sorc doesnt get one shotted. STR based slashing is better but that would gimp your evasion..

The more I look at this build the more I think you should just drop intimidate, pick up a couple more level of rogue and some rogue skills and sneak dice :/

Thanks for the suggestions Twerpp. I believe dragonmarks do end CE after a little forum exploration. The rogue style would drastically change this build so I personaly would not go there, but rather draw up a whole different build for that one. This build could be modified but modifying would start to stretch it thin for instance I could take out toughness and put in skill focus intimidate so - 45 hp and then take 2 out of dex and put the charisma up to 22. You could play a more situational style with the dragonmarks or take them out completely and boost your saves/hp/intimidate with iron will/luck of heroes/ toughness/ and skill focus intimidate... I think the dragon marks are fun and intriguing and superior to loh except for regarding CE... Like so many other people I would love to see monk, but I would actually like to make a defensive character if monk ever comes even if it were not optimum which it probably wouldn't be...

[Emili]

However, all of that said, a well-built Intimitank gives up very little (relative to an offensive Fighter if not an offensive Barb) in terms of damage potential for the ability to save party lives and resources by hitting that lovely little CE button. A couple of points of STR are unnoticeable when both builds pull out a two-hander and hit PA -- and anyone who argues differently isn't sane enough to argue with.

As with any other build discussion, it's all about trade offs. To me, an Intimitank is one of the more fun and more capable builds throughout the level range. No other build with which I'm familiar can carry a PuG as well as an Intimitank; even a Cleric can't heal incompetence, and I know from bitter experience that it gets old throwing platinum down the toilet.

There may be a price for versatility, but there's also a price for over-specialization, unless you have the perfect group of complementary builds online at all times to play with you.

QFT, I used to have an Intimidator a long time ago but am more of a twitcher myself so opted to go full tactician and full dps at one time only to pull full circle and round out a tad bit of a few things onto a high dps toon. It really comes down to your taste for play style though - Intimidators are awesome but not for everyone.

Many people assume the barb to be the ultimate DPS output in melee right now ... only thing really putting them there is the critical rage enhancements as a DPS fighter is only a few points behind them in damage per swing... what a barb makes in power rage and and rage str enhancements a fighter gains a little back feat-wise with weapon specialization's and focus's along with a few tacticals. Quad-rage on a barb is nice but so is triple-rage on a fighter. I have a high DPS Barb and two fighters who are more hybrid - they're the highest dps you'll get a fighter right now but have the options to turtle down a bit or deliver a tactical swing also - for me they're more fun as I can change with the situation and fill in a role needed as the fight changes. I run in with a 2hander or greater bane khopesh with PA on speed boosted and should things get a tad messy turn on CE... a few cleaves and a trip help out a lot too.

[Emili]

Yeah its -4 per size. Which equates to not a big deal at all with a good build especially one with CHA. Everyone suffers this penalty vs larger classes -4 for each size.

Yes you can shore that up with cha and items to get you into the area at end game... but as with everything that's also a trade-off, as you could have taken something else on another build.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

OK, if Evasion=Fun then you win.

Personally, I dont find evasion all that exciting. No Fail CUre Wands + other Paly benefits are better in my opinion than a +10% speed increase (Your an Intimitank.. they Goal is to draw agro to you and remain stationary.. Base land speed is academic)

evasion and a high ref save are awesome!

[maddmatt70]

evasion and a high ref save are awesome!

I think this build still has merit that is if intimidate tanks come back into vogue. This game is becoming more about speed and evasion is becoming more and more relevant as enemy spell casters get more powerful and for traps (it has been stated they are upping the damage put out by traps - this is not reality yet however). Dwarves have difficulty getting their reflex save up this high unless they go with pally levels and barbarian has some other really nice features at level 2 (this character would probably go 12 fighter/2 barbarian/2 rogue unless fighter gets some great enhancements options down the line). The question is figuring out what exactly is necessary for the intimidate skill/ hp needed/ ac with and without CE/ and playing around with aggro management.

[maddong]

I think intimitanks are awesome for PUG leveling up.