Solid Dependable Rogue

[Kindoki]

I put this together to see if I could build a twf rogue that has all the necessary rogue skills, but still deals excellent damage. Ya know, what everyone is doing....

Let me know if there are terrible weaknesses that I can't live with...i.e. will I not be able to hit anything at level 14...not be able to open anything or disarm anything.... my saves or hp will doom me to die a constant death... etc.

Also, if you point out a weakness, I would appreciate a recommendation to repair it. I am not trying to min/max this, just make it not suck wind....

EDITED VERSION BASED ON FEEDBACK:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.75
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 14 Chaotic Good Elf Female
(14 Rogue)
Hit Points: 148
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 6
Reflex: 15
Will: 5

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 14)
Strength 16 20
Dexterity 16 22
Constitution 12 14
Intelligence 14 14
Wisdom 11 12
Charisma 9 10

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 1
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 1
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 6
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 8
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 14

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14)
Balance 5 21
Bluff 0 0
Concentration 1 2
Diplomacy 4 17
Disable Device 6 23
Haggle 0 0
Heal 1 1
Hide 7 23
Intimidate 0 0
Jump 7 22
Listen 1 3
Move Silently 7 23
Open Lock 7 27
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 2 4
Search 6 23
Spot 5 22
Swim 3 5
Tumble 5 8
Use Magic Device 4 17

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 2 (Rogue)

Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Shadow

Level 4 (Rogue)

Level 5 (Rogue)

Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Lesser Dragonmark of Shadow

Level 7 (Rogue)

Level 8 (Rogue)

Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 10 (Rogue)

Level 11 (Rogue)

Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 13 (Rogue)

Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Acid Trap Lore I
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber III
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber IV
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
Enhancement: Way of the Mechanic I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I

ORIGINAL VERSION:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.75
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 14 Chaotic Good Elf Male
(14 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 104
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 4
Reflex: 15
Will: 4

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 14)
Strength             17                    21
Dexterity            17                    23
Constitution          9                    10
Intelligence         14                    16
Wisdom                9                    10
Charisma              9                    10

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 1
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 1
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 1
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 14

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 14)
Balance               4                     6
Bluff                 4                    17
Concentration         0                     0
Diplomacy             4                    17
Disable Device        6                    24
Haggle                0                     0
Heal                  0                     0
Hide                  8                    23
Intimidate            0                     0
Jump                  6                    20
Listen                0                     2
Move Silently         8                    23
Open Lock             8                    27
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                2                     5
Search                6                    24
Spot                  4                    21
Swim                  4                     5
Tumble                6                     8
Use Magic Device      4                    17

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 2 (Rogue)

Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Defense

Level 4 (Rogue)

Level 5 (Rogue)

Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Shadow

Level 7 (Rogue)

Level 8 (Rogue)

Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 10 (Rogue)

Level 11 (Rogue)

Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Lesser Dragonmark of Shadow

Level 13 (Rogue)

Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Acid Trap Lore I
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber III
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber IV
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
Enhancement: Way of the Mechanic I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I

[bigj1608]

i'd say dont even do this.. start from scratch.. go drow, since you obviously have 32 points available and you're going elf.. drow outdoes elf as a rogue by far imo. your HP are way too low.. you have a high dex and str but no weapon finesse and you seem to be going for backstabbing and such so you wont need str all that much either way.. you can depend on your backstab/elemental/bursting damage or specialty weapons rather than dps coming from str.. also, i'd say to be a dependable rogue you need to have max rogue skills, which you dont have at all.. and, two weapon fighting? if you dont go beyond two weapon fighting, it is a complete waste because on that 3rd swing it only hits once and the 4th swing, again, it only hits once (without improved/greater twf) so thats wasted.. and also, you are wasting time with two weapon defense.. you probably wont get more than 40 ac without a shield and that wont do a thing for you once you get to gianthold.. or even elite threnal++ i'd say go drow, and if you want to know what i would do as a pure rogue with great combat capabilities, reply back, but otherwise, take this info and do with it what you wish

[CSFurious]

you will get crushed

i tried many rogue builds, drow & halfling

best roll yet, is my current 32-point dwarf 6rogue/1fighter, he is durable & can handle all rogue duties

[parvo]

I'm not convinced that TWF is needed or even desirable. A non-finesse Rogue should be fine with a shield. You don't need shield feat if you use one that has no armor check penalty. You'll have a better AC, you'll draw a little less aggro, but your damage will still be great. If you learn how to play him, you'll be fine there. I also think Pure Elf is a great way to go there.

That frees up three feats you can use. A lot of choices here. Toughness and Dodge might be two I'd go with for a combat rogue. If you'r going to take advantage of Elven Enhancement Bonus for Longsword, you might accentuate it with Weapon Focus Slashing, but I'm not sure you even need it. You have at least one feat to play with here.

For skills, I'd say for the average PUGGer, drop Bluff. It's difficult to use. You have to be facing the oppponent at close range, which is hard to do sometimes, and the action takes a full turn. Diplomacy works much better for a Rogue that will be mostly grouped. It's AoE, non-targeted. It sheds the aggro and you'll get your backstabs in. Max ranks in trapsmithing. No question here. Anything else and you leave yourself vulnerable as the game grows. That includes Spot, Search, Disable. If you think you know where every trap is, just wait until they more of the trap boxes. They've already committed to adjusting hard and elite traps to hit harder come mod 6.

Rogues are great. Enjoy yours and let us know how it works out.

[Kindoki]

So, let me give you a bit more behind my thinking, and then maybe we can figure out the best way forward - since HP seems to be a glaring weakness.

I went Elf instead of Drow merely because of longswords. I envisioned a true elven rogue with longsword/shortsword dual weapons. That is also why I went the strength route, since weapon finesse doesn't assist longswords. I kept the Dex high for AC and skills. I will have a 26 str and a 28 dex with +5 items and a +1 tome, or +6 items. While neither of those are maxed, I thought they would be sufficient.

I didn't go weapon finesse because of the aforementioned longswords, but also because I understand that weapon finesse doesn't add to damage, just to hit. I was boosting my to hit through enhancements, so I thought the extra strength could add a few points of damage to each hit.

My skills in disable and open are maxed from a rank level, and I went 'way of the mechanic' to boost them a bit more. The cost of adding two more points to each of them (up to enh IV) seemed to take a lot away from other things. I can't disable the cabal trap (or find it) but my dd/ol/search/spot will be in the low 40's (w/o my skill boost) which I think should cover most things in the game(?).

I just threw in the twf defense. Sounds like I should probably swap it out for toughness. The dragonmarks (invisibility and displacement) sounded like they could be pretty darn useful, situationally. I have twf and itwf planned at the moment. I figure to get gtwf at 15. That should make me pretty effective as a two weapon fighter.

If I add toughness instead of twf defense, take the helmet from necropolis that gives more toughness, and use a +20hp belt I have - I think that adds 56 hp to this build. A total of 160, which is exactly what my cleric has - and he doesn't get squished all that often...being a cleric helps of course...

Basically, this character will run in guild groups, though I don't want him to be a drag on PUG's, I figure that when he isn't powerful enough to keep up with the others in the group, then he won't be needed - they'll be killing everything anyways. When his combat would actually make a difference, then we will be moving slow enough to use his rogue skills to full effect, sneaking, diplomacy, all that.

As for UMD, I think it is high enough to use most items in the game, and cast a few scrolls. I may have trouble with raise dead and heal, but there should be enough scroll ability to be helpful in some ways. I haven't really looked heavily into this area.

Lastly, I don't have many weapons (my main being a cleric), so I didn't want to plan around a particular weapon set that I may never come up with. I was trying to build a character that would take advantage of whatever I came across. If I went the weapon finesse route, I would really be limiting myself.

So, that was my thinking...

BTW, other than dropping twf (it's the concept), I am open to most every other suggestion for improvement. Thanks for everything so far.

[Aesop]

I'd go drow Rapier and Shortsword myself as Drow have enhancments that affect both for to hit and damage. I might even take the Weapon Finesse for it drop take two of the points from Intelligence and put them into Con so you start witth an 11 Con. Drop Str by 2 raise Dex by 2... THis drops you 1 point of damage while increasing your to hit by 2 (if you go Weapon Finesse)... and that is without increasing Dex through Levels... though I'd probably put two into dex and 3 into Strength (by level 20 that is) It would maintain the ratio and you'd be down 2 damage while having an even higher to hit. The Drow Weapon Enhancments make up for this and the Crit Range of the Rapier will be a good benefit as well. Don't ignore your Charisma because UMD is your Friend and so to is Bluff and Diplomacy for Aggro managment.

That's me though ... you also will have the ability to grab Superior Two Weapon Fighting at level 20 (if you take level 20 as a Fighter level to get the Feat)

Just a couple suggestions there


Aesop


ps

as far as limited weapon sets... you'll have a high enough strength that you won't stink with non finesse weapons ... you'll just excel at finesse weapons. Rapier and Short Sword for Piercing. Sickle for Slashing (Hand Axe and Kukri at level 20), Light Mace and Light Hammers for Bludgeoning... no real worries there.

[Dariun]

I would suggest Drow as well. The INT bonus and CHA bonus both help a lot. I'd think about 16 STR and moving the extra points to CON.

I would also suggest 2 levels of ranger. This gives you TWF for free and frees up a feat (for toughness, I'd suggest). And you will be able to use those longswords if you like. You also get bow strength and rapid shot, and with your str/dex combo you will be able to be fairly effective ranged (which is nice if you have lowish hit points).

Take something other than TWD (Skill focus: UMD maybe...).

Not sure if maxing out the subtle backstabber line will be worth it, but you can figure that out when you get there.

If you start with 16 INT and get good search/disable items, you may not need Way of the Mechanic (although it is a nice enhancement).

[CSFurious]

i think toughness is a poor feat for any pure rogue that is not a dwarf because you cannot enhance it; it would only add approx. 18 hitpoints to a pure non-dwarf rogue

bluff is good if you can get improved feint

I'm not convinced that TWF is needed or even desirable. A non-finesse Rogue should be fine with a shield. You don't need shield feat if you use one that has no armor check penalty. You'll have a better AC, you'll draw a little less aggro, but your damage will still be great. If you learn how to play him, you'll be fine there. I also think Pure Elf is a great way to go there.

That frees up three feats you can use. A lot of choices here. Toughness and Dodge might be two I'd go with for a combat rogue. If you'r going to take advantage of Elven Enhancement Bonus for Longsword, you might accentuate it with Weapon Focus Slashing, but I'm not sure you even need it. You have at least one feat to play with here.

For skills, I'd say for the average PUGGer, drop Bluff. It's difficult to use. You have to be facing the oppponent at close range, which is hard to do sometimes, and the action takes a full turn. Diplomacy works much better for a Rogue that will be mostly grouped. It's AoE, non-targeted. It sheds the aggro and you'll get your backstabs in. Max ranks in trapsmithing. No question here. Anything else and you leave yourself vulnerable as the game grows. That includes Spot, Search, Disable. If you think you know where every trap is, just wait until they more of the trap boxes. They've already committed to adjusting hard and elite traps to hit harder come mod 6.

Rogues are great. Enjoy yours and let us know how it works out.

[Impaqt]

16,16,12,14,10,10 If ya really wanna us that many +1 Tomes go 11 Wis and 9 CHR.

Toughness is a Wasted feat on an Elf ROgue. 16 Hit points dont mean enough to take it.

As a Pure Rogue, you have Plenty of Skill Points and a Natural Boost to Search. 14 INT is Plenty. Use that +2 TOme if ya get it for CON.

Its True, Drow can make excellent Rogues. But you can do pretty good with an Elf as well. Dont let people completely rewrite your build.

[Rindalathar]

Well, I've never played a Drow rogue so I can't comment, but I don't think I'd ever play one either, since everyone else does. Yes, they have some nice enhancements, etc., but I wouldn't have done anything different in choosing an elf for my rogue. I don't waste time with TWF, since it doesn't appeal to me (again, the line to join this club is too long, IMHO), so I can't help you there. For rogues more than any other class, your equipment and playstyle will probably have the biggest factor in defining your success. Don't sweat a few stat. points here or there other than INT or CHA, since extra skill points are always welcomed and UMD at the highest levels is pretty much essential. I'd seriously consider weapon finesse though. Yes, it somewhat limits your weapons choice, but your sneak attack is ridiculous with it. Like others have said, you HP needs a little work, but I'm not convinced that the arguments against are justified. Sixteen extra hit points sounds pretty good to me, I don't care what class your are. Again, making rogues is like enjoying wine. Doesn't really matter what people tell you is good quality, it only matters what your personally find satisfying.

[Dariun]

Well, I've never played a Drow rogue so I can't comment, but I don't think I'd ever play one either, since everyone else does.

Don't sweat a few stat. points here or there other than INT or CHA, since extra skill points are always welcomed and UMD at the highest levels is pretty much essential.

You are correct. INT and CHA are very important.

Drow are the only race that gets INT and CHA bonuses (and DEX too just for good meansure). That's why people keep recommending Drow. More skills. More UMD.

I don't waste time with TWF, since it doesn't appeal to me (again, the line to join this club is too long, IMHO), so I can't help you there. For rogues more than any other class, your equipment and playstyle will probably have the biggest factor in defining your success.

TWF is definitely up to the player, and if it doesn't appeal, you shouldn't use it.

That said, dual-wielding double-effect weapons with Improved TWF can be very effective (e.g., crippling of puncturing and weakening of puncturing -- assuming you can't get wounding of puncturing, of course).

[Zenako]

It looks like all your level up stats went into strength. If you tweak the build towards the Finesse side of things, then I would suggest those points going into DEX instead. Helps AC and Rogue skills and TO HIT bonus with ranged and finesseable weapons.

I would also concur that the points into a skill like bluff might be wasted and I would question putting points into swim as well at this point. Use those to increase the core rogue skills to max if possible (DD, OL Spot, Search).

Since you do not have any weapon sets, going for finesseable ones gives you a focus to look for. If you really want to hit things, you could also consider taking Precision at third level. It cuts down the base damage, but leaves lots of other damage unchanged. The +4 to hit matters a lot a low to mid levels. You can always change it out later if you want.

Both my rogue (7th level) and Ranger12/Rogue2 use two weapon fighting and are happy with it (Ranger more so...but against some mobs the rogue will do more damage when you add in all the backstab boosts.)(and my Ranger has done the Cabal trap challenge on normal...its wasn't elite, but it still made me happy...I have no chance on Elite)

[CSFurious]

IMO the only race that makes absolutely no sense for rogue is wf

now, i will rank the races based on my personal opinion

1) 32-point dwarf, they are going to be the most durable rogue which to me is the most important; my current build has 133 hitpoints at level 7 & he is great; hitpoints will be up to over 250 before buffs at level 14, some fighters do not have that much in my experience; bad for chr though, plan on taking sf:umd to even be somewhat competent on this skill

2) drow, they are the original 32-pointers for int, dex & chr, but IMO too **** squishy

3) 32-point halfling, great dex & saves, but too **** squishy

4) 32-point human, no penalty to any attribute, free feat @ level 1, & human adaptability & versatility enhancements, probably too **** squishy

5) 32-point elf, dex bonus, +2 search/spot, but too **** squishy

anyway, when i say too **** squishy, i mean you make a mistake or two, & you are dead at end-game on elite content

just my opinion which is not worth that much because it is free

as to 2-weapon feats, might be a lot for a pure rogue, but that is why i splash some fighter for those bonus feats

You are correct. INT and CHA are very important.

Drow are the only race that gets INT and CHA bonuses (and DEX too just for good meansure). That's why people keep recommending Drow. More skills. More UMD.



TWF is definitely up to the player, and if it doesn't appeal, you shouldn't use it.

That said, dual-wielding double-effect weapons with Improved TWF can be very effective (e.g., crippling of puncturing and weakening of puncturing -- assuming you can't get wounding of puncturing, of course).

[Dariun]

lol

OP wasn't asking for rogue with best survivability.

If he were, a 32 pt. Dwarf rogue/fighter would be a good choice.

But a Drow Rogue/Paladin/Ranger (or Rogue/Paladin/Fighter) with a 16 base CHA might be the best choice.

I agree a fighter or ranger splash is nice for TWF rogues.

IMO the only race that makes absolutely no sense for rogue is wf

now, i will rank the races based on my personal opinion

[CSFurious]

you might be right about the paladin splash, but i cannot be a lawful good rogue, that hurts my head as the rogue is a thief & whoever heard of a lawful good thief

lol

OP wasn't asking for rogue with best survivability.

If he were, a 32 pt. Dwarf rogue/fighter would be a good choice.

But a Drow Rogue/Paladin/Ranger (or Rogue/Paladin/Fighter) with a 16 base CHA might be the best choice.

I agree a fighter or ranger splash is nice for TWF rogues.

[Dariun]

but i cannot be a lawful good rogue, that hurts my head as the rogue is a thief & whoever heard of a lawful good thief

BOND.

JAMES BOND.

[Ironwind]

BOND.

JAMES BOND.

No way.
Lawful Neutral.

[Aesop]

No way.
Lawful Neutral.

Batman?

Aesop

[Kindoki]

No way.
Lawful Neutral.

Really? I would have always thought Chaotic Good. Heart of Gold, but gets it done no matter the cost...ends justify the means...etc.

Back on thread though....

I really thought about both Drow and a splash of either Fighter or Ranger. The Drow, I admit, I shy away from just because everyone has one. Not that I am trying to make something that is highly unique here, but I take my little wins when I can get them. I will have to think a lot more about Drow.

Ranger, and fighter, I have to think more about. My concern is losing a d6 of backstab by going with 2 levels of either. If I did go the weapon finesse route, would the ranger levels get me all that much? I lose two levels worth of skill points, a d6 of backstab, but I gain bow strength and twf. Fighter, I get 2 free feats, same losses. Am I missing anything to consider in that calculation? I believe I may also gain +1 BAB with one of those splashes over a true rogue. I am certainly not against 2 levels of either, I just have to work it out in my head.

Paladin is a no, because of the alignment thing, but for a different reason. I have 54 True Chaos of Pure Good weapons. (sidebar: At least one of each weapon type in the game, with varying pluses, except a maul and kama - so if anyone has one, let me know) I collect them, and this is going to be my character to use them.

I have a bit of concern over UMD still. If I went the weapon finesse route, then I could probably add a point or two to my charisma.

Thank you for all the feedback so far! Keep it coming!

[Kindoki]

16,16,12,14,10,10 If ya really wanna us that many +1 Tomes go 11 Wis and 9 CHR.

Toughness is a Wasted feat on an Elf ROgue. 16 Hit points dont mean enough to take it.

As a Pure Rogue, you have Plenty of Skill Points and a Natural Boost to Search. 14 INT is Plenty. Use that +2 TOme if ya get it for CON.

Its True, Drow can make excellent Rogues. But you can do pretty good with an Elf as well. Dont let people completely rewrite your build.

Thanks for all your points here.