Again, what bugs do we report?

[parvo]

We need some feedback here. How are bugs verified and prioritized? What bugs are known? Which ones have you given up on? Which ones are you working on? I don't mind writing bug reports but I don't like stomping down my party every single time on the same bugs. I get the impression priority has something to do with number of reports. I can be the squeaky wheel if it helps, but either way my session is less fun. Buggy quest = less fun. Writing redundant bug reports = less fun. The least you could do is let us know what bug reports you don't need anymore.

[DaveyCrockett]

That is a very good point, and you would think that the 'Known Issues' would be used for that purpose and would be updated more often than with module releases.

[Ghoste]

Good point. A frustration I've had for some time. The controversial bug I have posted a lot about would have resulted in a lot less controversy and frustration had the devs simply said "yes" or "no".

[Silthe]

I can only speak for the QA process, but multiple bug reports of the same bug generally aren't helpful unless you have new information to report. For simple things like a stuck location, just the /loc and Ward/Dungeon it's in is sufficient and we don't need to see those more than once.

For more complicated things that seem to have no reliable steps to reproduce, multiple reports are useful provided that you have new or at least different data for us to work with. And the more detail you can provide on character build, party makeup, spells and effects in use at the time, etc, the more helpful those sorts of reports are.

In general though, anything you think is a bug should be reported. Even if the game is working as intended, it clearly is confusing you so perhaps better in-game feedback is required so you and others aren't confused.

My suggestion is that if you've already entered a bug report, don't report it again if you have nothing new to say. Wait for the next major release and see if it got fixed. If not, report it again. If it's especially hindering your gameplay, start a thread here to discuss it with others. Not only may others have a temporary work around for you, but it let's more people chime in as to their experiences. We often get more information on a tricky bug from a discussion thread here than a dozen isolated bug reports.

But please don't start threads about stuck locations.


~Silthe

[Lorien_the_First_One]

But please don't start threads about stuck locations.

What if we start a thread about what to report and then hyjak it to talk about stuck locations?

[Dane_McArdy]

What if we start a thread about what to report and then hyjak it to talk about stuck locations?

I come over to your house and talk about myself.





For several days.

[Qzipoun]

Hmmm I never realized that "stuck-spots" were supposed to be bug reported. As I seem to be quite skilled at getting stuck in quests and around town I'll start reporting the more annoying ones

[Missing_Minds]

Don't forget that if something seems to be a bug and you are certain there is one *cough* ranged attacks *cough* don't give up on it. Be polite, put in as much data as you can, and try to champion your cause in a non intrusive insulting manner.

[parvo]

I can only speak for the QA process, but multiple bug reports of the same bug generally aren't helpful unless you have new information to report. For simple things like a stuck location, just the /loc and Ward/Dungeon it's in is sufficient and we don't need to see those more than once.

For more complicated things that seem to have no reliable steps to reproduce, multiple reports are useful provided that you have new or at least different data for us to work with. And the more detail you can provide on character build, party makeup, spells and effects in use at the time, etc, the more helpful those sorts of reports are.

In general though, anything you think is a bug should be reported. Even if the game is working as intended, it clearly is confusing you so perhaps better in-game feedback is required so you and others aren't confused.

My suggestion is that if you've already entered a bug report, don't report it again if you have nothing new to say. Wait for the next major release and see if it got fixed. If not, report it again. If it's especially hindering your gameplay, start a thread here to discuss it with others. Not only may others have a temporary work around for you, but it let's more people chime in as to their experiences. We often get more information on a tricky bug from a discussion thread here than a dozen isolated bug reports.

But please don't start threads about stuck locations.


~Silthe

Thanks for the feedback. This helps a bit.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I come over to your house and talk about myself.

For several days.

Ok, i'll behave

[Svetelana]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=93871

[tekn0mage]

I can only speak for the QA process, but multiple bug reports of the same bug generally aren't helpful unless you have new information to report. For simple things like a stuck location, just the /loc and Ward/Dungeon it's in is sufficient and we don't need to see those more than once.

For more complicated things that seem to have no reliable steps to reproduce, multiple reports are useful provided that you have new or at least different data for us to work with. And the more detail you can provide on character build, party makeup, spells and effects in use at the time, etc, the more helpful those sorts of reports are.

In general though, anything you think is a bug should be reported. Even if the game is working as intended, it clearly is confusing you so perhaps better in-game feedback is required so you and others aren't confused.

My suggestion is that if you've already entered a bug report, don't report it again if you have nothing new to say. Wait for the next major release and see if it got fixed. If not, report it again. If it's especially hindering your gameplay, start a thread here to discuss it with others. Not only may others have a temporary work around for you, but it let's more people chime in as to their experiences. We often get more information on a tricky bug from a discussion thread here than a dozen isolated bug reports.

But please don't start threads about stuck locations.


~Silthe

This makes sense Slithe, however I just can't help but wonder if fixing bugs every 3 or 4 months (according to "major release" cycle) is a strategy for failure. I can't tell you the number of times I've had new guildmates join up fresh from another game only to have to explain to them that no, that's a bug and it might be fixed this year it might not be.

I don't buy this argument that other games have slow development cycles. Bug fixes happen on a weekly or bi-weekly basis for many other MMO's. They tend to not stack large releases with a bunch of bug fixes. This not only shows the community the commitment to a good product, but it also avoids cramming "too much" into one release.

I think with the recent downtime (and it has happened in the past) that trying to do too much at once is an accident waiting to happen. A shorter, more frequent bugfix development cycle would go a long way in presenting a good product. This is just one man's opinion but I think you can find some wisdom in that approach.

Best of luck.

Tek

[Dane_McArdy]

This makes sense Slithe, however I just can't help but wonder if fixing bugs every 3 or 4 months (according to "major release" cycle) is a strategy for failure. I can't tell you the number of times I've had new guildmates join up fresh from another game only to have to explain to them that no, that's a bug and it might be fixed this year it might not be.

I don't buy this argument that other games have slow development cycles. Bug fixes happen on a weekly or bi-weekly basis for many other MMO's. They tend to not stack large releases with a bunch of bug fixes. This not only shows the community the commitment to a good product, but it also avoids cramming "too much" into one release.

I think with the recent downtime (and it has happened in the past) that trying to do too much at once is an accident waiting to happen. A shorter, more frequent bugfix development cycle would go a long way in presenting a good product. This is just one man's opinion but I think you can find some wisdom in that approach.

Best of luck.

Tek

Whenever they can roll out fixes before a content release, they do. Like they are planning with the Abbot raid.

If they have too much downtime for this, you say it's wrong, they shouldn't have to update the game so much, interfering with peoples play time.

They limit it to when they are doing major updates, you say it's wrong, that every 3-4 months is to long to wait for a fix. I never saw bug fixes happening on a weekly basis when I played other MMO's. In fact, it was often 6-12 months. Or timed with new content.

And then to say, the tried to do too much? Um, the recent down time had nothing to do with fixing bugs in games. They said what they were doing. You can still find it on the forums if you look for it.

I'm sorry, but there are to many mixed signals from people to allow Turbine to every pick a course of action that won't have someone coming and posting how they have, in their wisdom, have a better way of doing something.

[Dane_McArdy]

Ok, i'll behave

Gonna have to keep an eye on you!

[tekn0mage]

Whenever they can roll out fixes before a content release, they do. Like they are planning with the Abbot raid.

If they have too much downtime for this, you say it's wrong, they shouldn't have to update the game so much, interfering with peoples play time.

They limit it to when they are doing major updates, you say it's wrong, that every 3-4 months is to long to wait for a fix. I never saw bug fixes happening on a weekly basis when I played other MMO's. In fact, it was often 6-12 months. Or timed with new content.

And then to say, the tried to do too much? Um, the recent down time had nothing to do with fixing bugs in games. They said what they were doing. You can still find it on the forums if you look for it.

1. First of all, I wasn't talking to you, so again we have an example of people "standing up" for Turbine when clearly they are big boys and can answer for themselves.

2. Secondly, don't you have me on ignore (I think you sent me a PM to that effect a long time ago)?

3. Third, I have never stated that downtime is a problem for me. In fact, it's quite the opposite. I explained that I never mind the downtime while bugs are being fixed and work is being done. So don't turn this into a flame based on things I have *never* said. That being said, I'll go on record to say that I wish there was MORE downtime, because that would mean more fixes are being implemented.

4. The six days of up/down during MOD3's release last year clearly indicates that yes, they tried to do too much. Every module we have had since then completely broke unrelated things. In fact, just this week a dev had stated that they "implement fixes for X, which breaks Y" and it's very frustrating for them.

5. You were obviously playing the wrong MMO's to see bugfixes once every 6 - 12 months. I'm not even going to get into that little pit of yours. There's only room for one there.

6. The recent downtime wasn't my only example of trying to "do too much". Besides, you weren't even there in the data center during the upgrade so you don't really know what the upgrade was about, or why it was being implemented. You only know what we know, so insinuating anything else is just pointless.

My general point is that the Development/Q&A cycle on small bugs is far too interdependent on "major releases" and should have their own development cycle on a much shorter timeline.

That being said, constructive criticism was offered, with no hostility on my part, and STILL you find a way to turn it into flamebait. Just another example of your negative contributions to the community Dane. One day, Turbine will muster the balls to deal with you for the troll you are.

[Dane_McArdy]

1. First of all, I wasn't talking to you, so again we have an example of people "standing up" for Turbine when clearly they are big boys and can answer for themselves.

If you are going to post in a public forum, where ANYONE is allowed to respond, you have to accept that.

Otherwise, if you want to have a private conversation with someone, you sould conduct it in a private manner.

I was not answering for Turbine, I was refuting your claim about them not doing fixes outside of content update. And pointing out how no matter what they decide, you have fault with.

On top of that, someone asked a very legitimate question, and got a quick informative response from Turbine. One thing that you have been SO vocal about Turbine failing to do in the past. And what do you do, you critize the answer they give. When there is nothing wrong with the answer they give, or how they do things.

[tekn0mage]

If you are going to post in a public forum, where ANYONE is allowed to respond, you have to accept that.

Look Dane, I'll never argue with you again if you can just stick to this point and respect MY right to post as much as I respect yours. I know this isn't going to happen because when it's someone else's point you always defend on the opposite end of that. You argue that this is TURBINE's forum and NOT a public forum. Too bad you only see it this way when it suits you.

Besides, just because someone says something you disagree with or have issue with, doesn't mean you HAVE to respond. It's called self-control, Dane.

Again, my original comments still stand as a constructive suggestion for the Q&A team in a relevant thread on relevant issues. You de-railing the thread to prove a point (bringing up old arguments, old threads, old issues) about me is so unnecessary. It's not like we expect any different from you, but enough already.

[Silthe]

Let's not get derailed here. Tek, you make a valid point, but you assumed something from my post which wasn't intended so I will explain that.

I said that you should wait until after a major release to re-report a bug. This is because major releases have more bug fixes in them and are far more likely to have fixed the "less critical" bugs. If you notice, we always have at least one "patch" after a major release, sometimes two (I'm not counting the emergency hotfixes a day or two after a release - may we never see those again). These are planned "bug fixing" patches as we assume that you crafty players will have found ways to break things or more likely broken combinations of weapons, feats, spells, etc. that we missed.

However, these patches are the perfect example of us trying not to do too much. The last thing we want to do is release a patch to our patch. So we keep the number of changes to a minimum by using the simplistic measure of "Can we live with this until the next major release?" If the answer is no, it goes in the patch. If we decide it can wait, we add it to the known issues list so people will be aware of it and know that we're aware of it.

This is why I said to wait until the next major release. Your bug may not have "made the cut" for the interim patches, but is likely on the list for the major release.

Hope that makes a little more sense.


~Silthe

[Laith]

Look Dane, I'll never argue with you again if you can just stick to this point and respect MY right to post as much as I respect yours. I know this isn't going to happen because when it's someone else's point you always defend on the opposite end of that. You argue that this is TURBINE's forum and NOT a public forum. Too bad you only see it this way when it suits you.

but it IS both a public forum and it is owned by turbine. both of these facts mean entirely different things, but they are not conflicting in any way.
Consider this a public park that is owned by the government...

Besides, just because someone says something you disagree with or have issue with, doesn't mean you HAVE to respond. It's called self-control, Dane.

pot, meet kettle.

Again, my original comments still stand as a constructive suggestion for the Q&A team in a relevant thread on relevant issues.

yes, they were. dane criticized your suggestion. that doesn't mean you have to return to refute him. nevermind, no sense in trying to put out the fire between you two...

[NameisToad]

Dane, you don't know me, because I almost never post here, so, to give you an idea where I'm coming from: I have Tekn0mage on ignore because I disagree with 99% of what he says and find that arguing with him draws flames more than reasoned responses. I think I only have two people ignored on this board, and Tekn0mage is one of them.

In this thread, Tekn0mage is in the right and Dane McArdy is in the wrong, in my opinion.

Tekn0mage answered Silthe with respect and dignity, offering an unsolicited opinion on a policy decision by Silthe's superiors. He placed no personal blame on Silthe, and surprised me with just how civil he could be.

Dane McArdy attacked him personally in a very trollish fashion.

---

In my opinion, it would be a good idea to have a small group of devs and QA-types work on bug fixes for short-term release, while the main body of devs continue to work on new content and long-term engine changes/bug fixes for major updates.

I'm pretty sure that's what Turbine is doing, and that Silthe has just told us that we should not look for communication from Turbine on which bugs are getting fixed or when, but rather to wait for module releases to see if our personal pet bug has been fixed in the major content release.

Tekn0mage is asking (politely, in this case) for more communication, after Silthe gently suggested to a new player that communication is simply not coming from this company. (or perhaps I should word that, "Silthe reminded a new player that actions speak louder than words.")

Edit: Silthe gave an example of a place where communication is supposed to go after I wrote this. (though, before I posted it)