Again, what bugs do we report?

[tekn0mage]

There are still people who dislike the enhancement system. Me being one of them.

Furthermore, this idea of introducing Prestige classes through enhancements is just laughable. So as you see, they should prepare for controversy when doing controversial things. Hard to have pity for that when it does happen.

As far as Codog's commitment, I applaud that person for putting in so much effort. Seriously though, why is Codog the only dev we see that passionate about their work?

Turbine is fighting a lot of battles that they shouldn't have to fight simply because they forgot something. They forgot to have a public face. They do all their internal stuff, but they just about slip up every time there's a public relations issue.

The comment about riding a bike to work is an attempt to say that they are well paid for their efforts. This isn't about class-envy because their salaries aren't something to be envied. Let's not treat them like poor developers struggling out of college to make ends meet, ok? They are highly paid and highly trained professionals.

Give a programmer from India, Korea or the Phillipines 1/4th their salary and watch them do a job 10 times better. American coders who complain about how tough the job is deserve no sympathy. Sure, we'll hear them out when the going gets tough and pat them on the back for a job well done, but you take it too far Dane.

[Yaga_Nub]

Give a programmer from India, Korea or the Phillipines 1/4th their salary and watch them do a job 10 times better. American coders who complain about how tough the job is deserve no sympathy. Sure, we'll hear them out when the going gets tough and pat them on the back for a job well done, but you take it too far Dane.

Not a friggin' chance of that happening (doing the job 10 times better) and, until recently, I dealt with programmers from many different countries so I speak from experience.

[jjflanigan]

Give a programmer from India, Korea or the Phillipines 1/4th their salary and watch them do a job 10 times better. American coders who complain about how tough the job is deserve no sympathy. Sure, we'll hear them out when the going gets tough and pat them on the back for a job well done, but you take it too far Dane.

That was completely uncalled for and insulting to any American programmer (me being one of them). Not sure why you had to even include that bit in your post unless you were just trying to be mean and rude.

Yes, more feedback would be nice, but, as I've said over and over again, until people can learn that communication and discussion is not a guarantee of something happening, you're not going to get it.

[Dane_McArdy]

There are still people who dislike the enhancement system. Me being one of them.

I guess that puts you in the minority. Oh well.

Furthermore, this idea of introducing Prestige classes through enhancements is just laughable. So as you see, they should prepare for controversy when doing controversial things. Hard to have pity for that when it does happen.

I guess you are not fully informed. Kate said they are still exploring prestige classes in a recent interview.

As far as Codog's commitment, I applaud that person for putting in so much effort. Seriously though, why is Codog the only dev we see that passionate about their work?

I think they are all pasionate. You are assuming they aren't because they don't want to sit up at 3 in the morning, writing response to people who think thier job should go to India because it's cheaper and they will do a better job?

Turbine is fighting a lot of battles that they shouldn't have to fight simply because they forgot something. They forgot to have a public face. They do all their internal stuff, but they just about slip up every time there's a public relations issue.

That's your view, I'm sure there are lots of people that will see it as wrong. Turbine does have a public face. In fact, the recent weekend issues have shown they are always working to do better. Look how many people said, thanks for keeping us informed. It might not have been at this level in the past, but they have started.

The comment about riding a bike to work is an attempt to say that they are well paid for their efforts. This isn't about class-envy because their salaries aren't something to be envied. Let's not treat them like poor developers struggling out of college to make ends meet, ok? They are highly paid and highly trained professionals.

Who are clearly putting in more then they are getting paid for. No one is treating them like poor developers. But I can have pity for someone that puts more then is required for thier job, solely so you can sit on your but for pennies an hour, to play a video game, and all you can do is 95% of the time viciously complain about the slightest thing, and tell them how your wisdom is much better then theirs. And then get offended when people find issues with your posts. More so when you say things like:

Give a programmer from India, Korea or the Phillipines 1/4th their salary and watch them do a job 10 times better. American coders who complain about how tough the job is deserve no sympathy. Sure, we'll hear them out when the going gets tough and pat them on the back for a job well done, but you take it too far Dane.

This is just disgusting to read. I've never heard anyone from Turbine complain about thier job. I take it to far? No, you go to far.

[tekn0mage]

I guess that puts you in the minority. Oh well.



I guess you are not fully informed. Kate said they are still exploring prestige classes in a recent interview.



I think they are all pasionate. You are assuming they aren't because they don't want to sit up at 3 in the morning, writing response to people who think thier job should go to India because it's cheaper and they will do a better job?



That's your view, I'm sure there are lots of people that will see it as wrong. Turbine does have a public face. In fact, the recent weekend issues have shown they are always working to do better. Look how many people said, thanks for keeping us informed. It might not have been at this level in the past, but they have started.




Who are clearly putting in more then they are getting paid for. No one is treating them like poor developers. But I can have pity for someone that puts more then is required for thier job, solely so you can sit on your but for pennies an hour, to play a video game, and all you can do is 95% of the time viciously complain about the slightest thing, and tell them how your wisdom is much better then theirs. And then get offended when people find issues with your posts. More so when you say things like:



This is just disgusting to read. I've never heard anyone from Turbine complain about thier job. I take it to far? No, you go to far.

Here we go again. A whole new slew of thread fodder.

All the times you tell us NOT to read into what the Dev's say, you are violating your own cardinal rule about Kate and prestige classes.

At NO time, did they EVER say/promise or even attempt to commit to instituting prestige classes. So I'm sorry, you are the one misinformed and breaking the exact rule you bash others over the head with constantly.

What we DO KNOW NOW, is that they HAVE instituted Bard prestige classes as an ENHANCEMENT LINE. So, you have conjecture, I have facts, which wins at the end of the day?

Secondly, Codog is a model developer in my opinion. Active in the community, open to reason, and doesn't let small things bother him. We need more like him. That's all I'm saying.

I work in the Open Source community where all developers are active DAILY in bugtracks, mailing lists and personal emails with end-users. They don't get paid for it, they do it for free. How is it that we have paid professionals that can't come on the forums and post once per month what they are working on and how the game is going?

As far as all of them being passionate... what about Sporkfire, was he passionate taking another position in another company? What about Hsinclair? You haven't talked to her, you don't know the reason why she left. You SAY it's because of the community that she left, I think it was her employer that put unrealistic demands and she decided to say screw this. No amount of faceless, nameless criticism can outdo an employer asking for too much too soon.

So again Dane, we can go round and round, but I suggest you put me back on ignore because you don't ever win, you just look more flustered each time.

[tekn0mage]

To Dane:

And I quote from the TenTonHammer interview... your favorite person, Kate stating this:

"We’ve also continued our enhancement series, and this time around the Ranger got their day in the sun with the Arcane Archer, Deepwood Sniper, and Tempest enhancements. Those allow more customization for the characters and address certain needs that the players have asked for in the past."

Once again, Prestige Classes as Enhancements.

[isldur]

Read posts, and only one thing outraged me and also showed a bit of ignorance.


Originally Posted by tekn0mage View Post
Give a programmer from India, Korea or the Phillipines 1/4th their salary and watch them do a job 10 times better. American coders who complain about how tough the job is deserve no sympathy. Sure, we'll hear them out when the going gets tough and pat them on the back for a job well done, but you take it too far Dane.

You are simply uninformed. The most productive workers in the entire world are from..............America .

Look it up. Jump out of your fantasy land and read some real news once in a while.

Pretty sure it goes like this......American coders make game, (using your examples) india korean and phillipine coders hack game to sell plat.

Quite sure our gm's don't speak fluent english, how is their preformance been for you?

Never really had much trouble with your post before, but.........that was just borked.

[Gror_Stoneshard]

Give a programmer from India, Korea or the Phillipines 1/4th their salary and watch them do a job 10 times better. American coders who complain about how tough the job is deserve no sympathy. Sure, we'll hear them out when the going gets tough and pat them on the back for a job well done, but you take it too far Dane.

This is childish, misinformed and just plain dumb. Get off your high horse man, it's just a game for us, and plenty of **** work for them. Get some perspective on how much you spout should really be an issue. Jackass.

[isldur]

This is childish, misinformed and just plain dumb. Get off your high horse man, it's just a game for us, and plenty of **** work for them. Get some perspective on how much you spout should really be an issue. Jackass.

Nicely put.

[moorewr]

You are simply uninformed. The most productive workers in the entire world are from..............America .

Look it up. Jump out of your fantasy land and read some real news once in a while..

Technically, French workers (yes, French workers) are the most productive per hour, but we work longer hours, so we produce more en toto.

[isldur]

Technically, French workers (yes, French workers) are the most productive per hour, but we work longer hours, so we produce more en toto.

Actually its not the french, its norway.

"Last year, U.S. workers each produced $63,885 in value-added labor, compared to $55,986 by workers in Ireland, the next closest economy, according to the United Nation's International Labor Office.

Yet, measured as value added per hour worked, American workers dropped behind those in Norway where workers produced $37.99 per hour, compared to $35.63 in the United States and $35.08 in France. That's because U.S. employees tend to work much longer hours than workers in other developed economies, the Geneva-based agency reported." Quoted from Inc.com

[Cutedge]

How is it that we have paid professionals that can't come on the forums and post once per month what they are working on and how the game is going?

Perhaps because game programmers who work hard on their product don't want to come to the forums to be criticized, told they should be fired, told that they are worthless as an employee and a human being, and so forth. I simply can't understand why people have to treat the makers of a game they play like this.

[moorewr]

Actually its not the french, its norway.

"Last year, U.S. workers each produced $63,885 in value-added labor, compared to $55,986 by workers in Ireland, the next closest economy, according to the United Nation's International Labor Office.

Yet, measured as value added per hour worked, American workers dropped behind those in Norway where workers produced $37.99 per hour, compared to $35.63 in the United States and $35.08 in France. That's because U.S. employees tend to work much longer hours than workers in other developed economies, the Geneva-based agency reported." Quoted from Inc.com

"takk skal du ha for rettelsen"

[parvo]

Thank you, tecn0mage, for your calmly worded opinions. While no one enjoys hearing their work criticized, it's important to hear negative feedback if one is ever going to improve. Respectfully worded posts such as yours and the OP make it easy to really hear what you're saying.

I'm not sure I have much in the way of answers that will satisfy tecn0mage, Parvo, or other critics here, but I will say what I can.

I question the number of annoying bugs players have bene reporting "since Beta." I think it's likely just a dozen or so issues that people run into a lot that make it seem like there are many more. That being said, there are still more "active" bugs lingering from Module to Module than we're particularly comfortable with, whether players notice them a lot or not.

I'll be honest, after DDO launched we were more concerned about addressing the major criticism to the game - lack of content - than fixing a lot of non-critical bugs. New content and systems (mail, auctions, favor, etc...) were the agenda and had priority over fixing the less than major bugs.

We've actually been spending more time recently though going back and attempting to fix a lot of the "classic" bugs of yesteryear, but it will still be a while before we've gotten to everyone's pet bug. Also keep in mind that something that may seem simple to fix is often quite tricky. The whole Stormcleave mess was fixed 18 times before we stopped getting reports of it. The infamous "Death From Above" issue has been fixed several times, each fix eliminating an aspect of the problem. There's another fix for it going in to Mod 6, but like Stormcleave, we hesitate to call it definitely fixed until we get no more reports of it happening.

The best advice I have is to keep submitting a bug report once every major module. It'll keep it on our radar, and if lots of people report the same bug that way, it'll get moved towards the top. Reporting it ten times yourself doesn't accomplish that much. We're looking at older bugs more than we used to, so there's a good chance that your most annoying bug will get investigated.

I know, not the answer anyone was hoping for, but I hope it's better than nothing.


~Silthe

You gave me some direction and while I'm not satisfied with the amount of bugs in the game, I'm **** near thrilled to know how I can best affect the situation. Again, I appreciate that guidance.

To others, I'd ask you don't blow up this thread. Others deserve to see Slithe's valuable feedback without you guys getting the thread locked or deleted.

[Vizzini]

It would be really nice to see the ladder bug fixed.. It's been there since beta, and while I've become accustomed to jumping up the ladder, it would really be nice to just climb it with out glitching up and down 20 times :x

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Perhaps because game programmers who work hard on their product don't want to come to the forums to be criticized, told they should be fired, told that they are worthless as an employee and a human being, and so forth. I simply can't understand why people have to treat the makers of a game they play like this.

That is so true... I saw another thread recently where one of the programmers clearly was upset at what he felt was some attacks going into the hurtfull range.

I think there needs to be much much much more posting here by Turbine employees. Most of my expectation in that area though centres around people like Q or programmers who show up for player feedback on particular issues. (Eldarin & CDog being good recent examples of this). Where actually programmers can, great, but the absense of programmers posting is not a sign of lack of dedication. It may mean they are WORKING (unlike some of us in the forum right now ).

You are simply uninformed. The most productive workers in the entire world are from..............America .

That's not universally true. And I saw your quote in another thread supporting them not being #1 but being near the top... averages mean pretty much nothing when you merge dissimilar industry groups. Also the measure of $ added per hour is not always the best measure... If you produce a widget that sells for $50 in the US then the value added is $50. If you produce the same widget in china and sell it for $1 then the value added is $1. Both widgets may be identical and have equal functional value. Its an accounting entry and not a real measure of anything.

Pretty sure it goes like this......American coders make game, (using your examples) india korean and phillipine coders hack game to sell plat.

Wow, Techno was off to one side...you are equally insulting and even bording racism on the other.


There are some quality programmers in places like India and China who do good work, although language can definately be a problem but for 1/4 (or less) the price you end up getting higher production on the same budget. (Assume the average Indian programmer puts out 50% of the material given delays/rewrites due to language issues and you can still put out twice the material on the same budget)

There are also countries like Israel that have a knowlegable programming workforce for sale at lower rates that have less of a languge barrier.

[tekn0mage]

That is so true... I saw another thread recently where one of the programmers clearly was upset at what he felt was some attacks going into the hurtfull range.

I think there needs to be much much much more posting here by Turbine employees. Most of my expectation in that area though centres around people like Q or programmers who show up for player feedback on particular issues. (Eldarin & CDog being good recent examples of this). Where actually programmers can, great, but the absense of programmers posting is not a sign of lack of dedication. It may mean they are WORKING (unlike some of us in the forum right now ).




That's not universally true. And I saw your quote in another thread supporting them not being #1 but being near the top... averages mean pretty much nothing when you merge dissimilar industry groups. Also the measure of $ added per hour is not always the best measure... If you produce a widget that sells for $50 in the US then the value added is $50. If you produce the same widget in china and sell it for $1 then the value added is $1. Both widgets may be identical and have equal functional value. Its an accounting entry and not a real measure of anything.



Wow, Techno was off to one side...you are equally insulting and even bording racism on the other.


There are some quality programmers in places like India and China who do good work, although language can definately be a problem but for 1/4 (or less) the price you end up getting higher production on the same budget. (Assume the average Indian programmer puts out 50% of the material given delays/rewrites due to language issues and you can still put out twice the material on the same budget)

There are also countries like Israel that have a knowlegable programming workforce for sale at lower rates that have less of a languge barrier.

Lorien, I take back everything bad I ever said about ya

While my post certainly did rile some people up, it's good to see you keeping a consistent balance. Cheers.