Did i Gimp my Pally

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Smodge, your Build is fine... Most Pure Fighters would be around 191 hit points at Level 10 (10x10 levels + 20 HD + 40 Con (18 Con) + 11 Toughness + 20 Toughness Enhancement), so the guy was being a jerk.

As for the build, I would probably take IC @ L9, and the Dragonmark @ 12, but that is just me.

Additionally, I would look over the Enhancements a little more... I would personally Drop BoG 3 in a heartbeat in order to get Paladin Toughness 4 (20 HP > 1 AC, IMHO). Also, unless you are using your SP for Healing, I don't think the Paladin Devotion is worth it (NOTE: I don't personally know if Paladin Devotion affects your Dragonmark Heals... if they do, then 1-2 levels of Devotion might be good, if not, drop it and wand-whip/dragonmark).

[Slayer918]

A good hitpoint number for you will be in direct relation to your AC (and other defensive abilities - self healing + evasion), my personaly opinion at level 14:

55-60ish AC means you only need 250-300 (I would say if your in this AC range you don't WANT to go much higher then 300 hitpoints as those resources can probably be spent in a better fashion)

50-55 AC means you'll want about 300-325 hp

47-50 AC means you'll want about 325-350

and Lower means you'll want more hitpoints - 350+

But, you have evasion, loads of self healing (your LoH wont break CE although your dragonmark heals will so use LoH in a bad fight and dragonmarks in fights when necassary but best for patching up imbetween I would think), and UMD (meaning you have access to scroll defenses like stoneskin), you should have some really nice saves as well...

People put way too much emphasis on HP nowadays... I would say as far as defense goes AC > Saves > HP (although hp are, in a lot of situations, by far the cheapest meaning lots of builds [barbarians] use them as a "cheap way out")

With all the extra defensive bonuses you have I wouldn't worry as long as your finishing at 250+ hp

020 heroic duribility
132 from levels
070 con
010 GH favor
016 toughness
030 or 50 toughness enhancements
272-292 baseline...

If you want to wear a GFL life item your IMO more then golden (I dont on my intimitank to me the +2 will save and 40 sp and +3 intimidate - going +5 wis ring and +13 intimidate helm over +2 wis +10 intimidate helm (still searching for that elusive +1/+13...) and GFL ring - is much more useful and I sit at 288 hp currently... and I'm a dwarf)

Nice build... absolutely no reason I can see to warrant a reroll...

Besides well...

your a halfling!!!

[Sutek]

If you're hitting 47 AC with 160 HP I'm guessing your HP will last longer than the 250 HP 22 AC character of the same level.

Not if the 22AC 250HP Barbarian is killing everything before it can swing it's sword.

[Blazer]

Not if the 22AC 250HP Barbarian is killing everything before it can swing it's sword.

Perhaps, but depending on feat selection and enhancement distribution, the lvl 9ish barb can be a bit behind the DPS curve (remember, no GTWF or GTHF yet). Plus, without access to the top end rage enhancements or Critical Rage I/II, the true DPS power of a barb has yet to be realized. And, unless you've already gone to BAM to get your necklace, you're not likely to be 100% fortified (unless you got some RR gear or are wearing a robe), thus making crit confirmation far easier on the 22 AC barb than the 47 AC character discussed here. The barb also doesn't have the massive amount of HP that the lvl 13-14 barbs have making them the wrecking crews they are in GH or the Orchard. A few raging Trolls or Ogres can and have taken down those 22 AC 250 HP barbs pretty quickly, especially if there are any enemy casters around tossing out stuff like Searing Light.

Don't get me wrong, barbs rule the roost by lvl 12+. Until then however, they can still be the mana sinks they were back in Mod 1-2 unless they're either 1) twinked to high heaven or, 2) controlled by a good player.

[Mithran]

I think the cutoff from the men to the boys at level 14 is 300 hit points, but dwarves go a lot higher.

I agree with some of the posts here that have suggested that you go with what feels right, and not worry about the opinions of other players.

It's amazing to me that so many groups advertise the need for a tank, and list only fighters and barbarians as meeting their definition of a 'tank.'

Paladins rock.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Agreed... my Holy Avenger sits at 330 HP now, and I would agree that 300 is a much more "comfortable" number for a 'tank'... and all too often I see LFM's up saying "Tanks Needed" or "DPS Needed", listing Fighters & Barbs only... what a shame.... I pack 28 STR w/ Power Attack, Divine Favor, and a +5 Flaming Adamantine Kopesh of Righteousness.... that is DPS (Obviously not SoS DPS, but pretty darn good DPS for Sword and Board)... and as soon as the cap hits 16 I will be at 30 STR (32 if I can get a +3 Tome! ). Add on to that fact that I carry Heal Scrolls for myself (and the party when needed) and Raise Dead... any group that understood that would take me in a heartbeat!

People need to realize that Paladins can "Tanks" or "DPS", just like Fighters and Barbarians can.

[moorewr]

Smodge, hello!

160 at level 9? That's plenty. That's more than any of my characters have had at that level to date. When minos legens and your final con you be high 200s.

My displacement bard/fighter has 120 hp at level 8 (because there's only so much con you squeeze out of a 28pt elf build). Big deal - that's plenty so long as I don't get critted though my displacement at the wrong moment. Level 9 I'll take toughness, and level 11 I'll got get a minos legens. Cake.

No comment on the personality thing.
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I kid! What could people possibly complain about?


EDIT: I bet they had >2 requests and (stupidly) used HP to pick the two they invited. I'd do order of request unless I saw a friend or guildie pop up. I hate how people don't send tells to people - I always try to do at least a "sorry, filled before I got to you" so people don't think I'm judging them in some way... and I never ask about HP or AC. I might ask about spells on certain quests, but that's pretty rare.

[Fallout]

... and all too often I see LFM's up saying "Tanks Needed" or "DPS Needed", listing Fighters & Barbs only... what a shame....

People need to realize that Paladins can "Tanks" or "DPS", just like Fighters and Barbarians can.

It has been that way since Day 1.

But I can play devils advocate and see the other view. I have group with paladins that their offense is simply just bad. Mainly because using sword and board, no power attack etc. The arguement for 'support' role is weak. The bulwark aura isn't a big deal. Healing/Rez, might as well get bard or another cleric. Paladins have to be well built and just as important, well equip (tomes, items etc). While there are many good paladins, but I've seen my share of ineffective builds.

[maddong]

I have a level 14 paladin hybrid with max/emp/emp healing dragonmarks (~70clx9, ~120csx7, 150lohx2, 399healx5) and a 26 strength. He uses greater bane greataxes and khopesh/shield with improved crit slash. He has 220 hp/350 mana which works out ok with heavy fort.

But he just feels gimped. My TWF displacement fighter with stun just seems a lot more effective. Most of the time the group doesn't need the dragonmark healing (although it is nice for healing yourself against Velah or some other boss or against beholders or undead beholders). It is even worse against things that can be wounded/punctured. My battle bard (mauls/quarterstaffs) actually plays smoother too (and makes the whole party better killers with max song enhancements).

In regards to the level stuff above, yeah, my paladin was the bomb leveling up. I would outheal the cleric, outkill the party, save the day, etc. At the lower level ac matters a lot more, the high point of the paladin's life.

[Emili]

I have a level 14 paladin hybrid with max/emp/emp healing dragonmarks (~70clx9, ~120csx7, 150lohx2, 399healx5) and a 26 strength. He uses greater bane greataxes and khopesh/shield with improved crit slash. He has 220 hp/350 mana which works out ok with heavy fort.

But he just feels gimped. My TWF displacement fighter with stun just seems a lot more effective. Most of the time the group doesn't need the dragonmark healing (although it is nice for healing yourself against Velah or some other boss or against beholders or undead beholders). It is even worse against things that can be wounded/punctured. My battle bard (mauls/quarterstaffs) actually plays smoother too (and makes the whole party better killers with max song enhancements).

In regards to the level stuff above, yeah, my paladin was the bomb leveling up. I would outheal the cleric, outkill the party, save the day, etc. At the lower level ac matters a lot more, the high point of the paladin's life.

Actually, high HP does not matter so much... I've res'd more 300-400 hp melee who really did not know how to play them well. Personally I like a decent balance of AC, HP and saves but always max or near-max the DPS... And play around that ie.) Emili in my sig only has 250 hp as a pure fighter yet she will typically be the last one standing in a group when things go wrong. Difference is when you have a character, you know it's weakness' and strong points and you play it accordingly. That little dps fighter has fought elite Vellah over and over and even elite tanked the reaver on elite quite often, once with just a bard wand whip occasionally for support, Just a dps build no extragant AC (is only 55 buffed)... no extravagant HP, not a single toughness feat - is built to dish it out not stand and take it... move around in combat silly to stand in one place - you've legs. A lot of times I drop my AC so my madstones kick in, then push it back up, run with power attack on keep her self-buffed around +40 to-hit and +38 to + 40 damage. My Pally Amlia at 233hp was originally built for smiting ... pre-mod 3 with smite chaining was extremely high DPS, miss those days, tappered back now but holds her own alongside most melee these days. Not as well armed as the other melee in my account but she does fine.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Defense, at least AC gets less imprtant at higher lvls.

HP are improtant, but only if you are taking damage.

I have a Pal8/Rog2 32pt that is very survivable and fun to play......but I do not get the high kill count...at least not often.

I built my toon when evasion worked in heavy armor with a low dex....so I have suffered somewhat in the AC department..
But over all I still think it is a great toon who is very strong against enemy casters especially.

Very resistant to many kinds of attacks....very high saves....decent skill points.

Anyway, you will know your weaknesses better than anyone else.
If you are having fun playing that toon than keep playing him.

A group of any class with any toons, who know there abilities well and how to maximise them and work together to support each other can succeed in any quest IMHO.

[Jondallar]

The Thing about Melee these days is DPS does not matter anymore, Mages and Clerics are the powerhouse DPS, so high saves solid AC and HP is more suited to Mod 5 IMO. The ability to block a door, and help heal/rez is way more useful in a full group than huge melee DPS. If you are relying on Melee DPS to kill things, you are gonna die.

[Aeneas]

Take some ranks in intimidate, maybe even blow a whole rogue level on them. With your pally cha, super saves, and high AC you can show them the meaning of the word Tank. Its when the most heavily armored person (you) gets all the aggro, takes very little or no damage, and the person doing the most DPS (usually squishy sorc) takes no aggro, and the clerics job is extremely easy, even easier since you self heal so well.

QFTGHT (quoted for the god's honest truth)

Intimidate, (and for that matter diplo) are highly underutilized as most players are never taught the importance of skill based aggro management.

[Dexxaan]

It has been that way since Day 1.

But I can play devils advocate and see the other view. I have group with paladins that their offense is simply just bad. Mainly because using sword and board, no power attack etc. The arguement for 'support' role is weak. The bulwark aura isn't a big deal. Healing/Rez, might as well get bard or another cleric. Paladins have to be well built and just as important, well equip (tomes, items etc). While there are many good paladins, but I've seen my share of ineffective builds.

I agree the support role is not The Paladin's strongpoint; and there's definitely a LOT more INeffective Paladins out there than Effective ones, of course when you run with an effective one it sure does make Barbarians and Regular Fighters look wimpy. And if you don't think so.....I'll get Bruttus to meet your "Tank" in a PVP arena.

[legonares]

Build is fine, Look at me.... My sorc sits at like 160 hp and I still kick ass, my batman has 246 he still kicks ass (HALFLINGS ROCK)
People put so much stock into hp now a days due to some people not being able to handle the wieght of a true tank, Keep doing what your doing and you'll end up with close or over to 300 Hp with the goods. (+6 item greater flase)

[captain1z]

I was the healer in group with a 450 hp dwarf fighter. every encounter he needed 2-3 full heals to keep him standing.

- He was sword and board
- I know he had about 450 hp because my heals hit for about 385 and I only hit him when he was near death and that nearly maxed him
- AC must have been like 35 (Im guessing no Protection item and no fortification item)


My Pali has 285 hp......and AC 48 standing no buffs.....with hvy fort, all my saves in the 30's, my resists are 30 pts

basicly he resists and reduces all the damage directed at him and makes those HPs go a long way.

There is no point in having high HP if you plan on taking the max possible damage you can and dont take steps to reduce that damage

You only end up either dropping like a rock or running around kiting mobs and praying for heals.

Your build is fine ....... and you know how to best use it (I would hope)


The only area you could possibly gimp yourself is when you spread your character too thin... ie multi-class with lots of skills
you may end up with a lot of abilities that are not strong enough to help you end game.

(that coming from a guy with 9 characters and 7 of them are multiclassed......made the mistake of multi-classing my cleric and rerolled after 10th level.)

[Corvid7]

In case you need another word of encouragement...
I also have a dragonmarked halfling pally. And he rules. I probably should have taken toughness, and am at level 13 with just over 200 hp. But I don't get hit all that often with a 45+AC and have saved many parties by assisting a wand whipping cleric (out of mana) with my lays and dragonmarks. Plus, he is just awesome to play and I always have fun. My guildies call me short, but whatever....

[legonares]

In case you need another word of encouragement...
I also have a dragonmarked halfling pally. And he rules. I probably should have taken toughness, and am at level 13 with just over 200 hp. But I don't get hit all that often with a 45+AC and have saved many parties by assisting a wand whipping cleric (out of mana) with my lays and dragonmarks. Plus, he is just awesome to play and I always have fun. My guildies call me short, but whatever....

HALFLINGS UNITE!11

[Cyndder]

A while back; on a whim, (Pre-mod 5) I built one of my favorite toons-- a halfling Pally Ranger mix 12 Pally/2 Ranger- and this was not a DEX build, Str build, MAX AC build, or a heavy DPS build toon. In fact I set up the stats so they were fairly equal across the board. This toon has almost the same BAB with a bow and while dual weilding. She wears fearsome armor most of the time; Has a few raid items including the kundarak boots, the true seeing goggles and the seal of the earth (stoneskin.)

Some could easily say that my equipment is what makes the toon work; and I would be willing to acept that arguement to a point. I would also contend it is what I can do with this toon that makes it fun. (I can go from a crowd control (cursespweer/paralyzer combo) to destructor role (dual disruptors, to a headsman role (dual vorpals (longswords and Khopeshes), to ranged combatant, to backup healer (LOH at 174x3 with unyielding sovernty.) My highest modified stat is a 26 in Cha; dex and str are both 24); has 288HP (no greater false life item...no room lol).

I designed the toon around the concept of being an abberation slayer/hunter with high saves for those pesky beholder types and I have been the last man standing/recovery toon on several difficult or underpwoered quests. The big thing is I came up with an idea...I like how it played out for that toon. I have Tanks, casters, rogue, and clerics I run...but this toon is just a blast to play and I have never felt gimped because the toon is doing the roles I have designed it to do and is meeting MY happiness and surpassed my expectations.

[nbhs275]

if you got a working ac past 50 with heavy fort on, then you dont need 400+ hitpoints.

My pally has about 50 ac, and 300 hp, heavy fort, and is near impossible to kill. Where my barbarian has nearly 450 hp raged, heavy fort, and a 40ish ac, and he can get nailed because of it.

Hitpoints arent defense, their buffer. Though a big buffer zone can help when the ****aki hits the fan.