Raid Loot Protocols. . .

[Staedtler]

Depends......can I bribe you with ale or Dwarven spirits?

If I find 500k plat in the bottom of my stein, I'm more than happy with ale bribes.

[maddmatt70]

That's where things went wrong....

KOI is good peeps. But PuG Raiding is a problem waiting to happen.
It's a self inflicted wound waiting to be opened.

I know this is somewhat out of context, but as a member of guilds under the size of 9 and frequent pug raider, unless we decide to shortman it or every once in awhile when we form an alliance, pug raiding is not a self inflicting wound waiting to be opened. Perhaps Riot you should try pug raiding as you might learn a thing or two. Seriously..... There are alot of quality players out there who know this game really well and that is all I have to say on the matter..

In regards to loot systems - we don't have any, but if we did we would not include pugs in the equation. i.e. it would be like the pugs were not there when determining loot, but even so I like grabbing people to finish out a group even if we only need 3 people to complete the quest because well I like to help grow the game if I can help it..

[Aranticus]

That's where things went wrong....

KOI is good peeps. But PuG Raiding is a problem waiting to happen.
It's a self inflicted wound waiting to be opened.

Riot, you should stop running guild runs (had heard from one former riedran in your guild that you ONLY do guild runs). there are lots of quality players pugging out. not only that, more importantly, if we want to build a collective spirit, pug is the only way out. when i first did velah post merge, when i told some of the players in the pug about hero-ing velah (which we always do in riedra), i was surprised to note that many of the players in that raid had no knowledge of such a tactic even thou they were vets (mostly did the rushing method). yeah i figure you could keep all these within the guild but if we do not share a collective spirit and knowledge in pugs, then pugs will ALWAYS be bad.

such thinking like yours is the self inflicted festering wound, not pugs.....

[Mithran]

I've had the full gamut of experience in pug runs, and while I prefer to run in-guild raids, I have too many flagged characters to run them all within my guild, and I know that some other members of my guild have, too. Also, I typically only run pug raids when I recognize at least a couple players' names and know they're capable and courteous.

Those guilds who hadn't heard of this group for guild leaders should initiate your own. Reach out to the GM's of other guilds and either try to get involved or start your own trans-guild raids.

I'm certain there are many guilds that weren't represented in the group that should have been. Any inter-guild communications and interactions are (or should be) a good idea.

[Riot]

I'll preface this by saying my tone is not meant to sound "mean".

Perhaps Riot you should try pug raiding as you might learn a thing or two.

(calm voice)
Learn what exactly? How to take forever to form up? How to deal with failure? How to deal with the one guy who doesn't listen?
Seriously, what will I learn from PuG raiding, that I won't learn either from guild raiding or PuG grouping?
If you can show me one positive thing that cannot be learned elsewhere or that I have not already learned I'll change my position.

Riot, you should stop running guild runs ..... there are lots of quality players pugging out. not only that, more importantly, if we want to build a collective spirit, pug is the only way out......

It has nothing to do with my perception of "quality players" out there. I know they are out there, I see them in PuG groups. I've recruited them personally into guild. I've had them request to join our guild of their own free will. Quality Players and Server spirit or pride has nothing to do with my personal choice to avoid pain and suffering at the hands of PuG raiding.

such thinking like yours is the self inflicted festering wound, not pugs.....

My thinking is self inflicted what?
Success?
Guild cohesiveness?
Again, what wound do you speak of? Am I self inflicting myself (by raiding in guild) with the wound of constant success? or with the wound of "no loot problems"? Or maybe it's the self inflicted wound of starting on time and finishing quickly? Or the horrid wound of group cooperation and capability? Or maybe it's the self inflicted wound of having scheduled raids so I can log in complete it and spend time with my family?

I'm struggling here to understand your point and see how my thinking / personal choice is a self inflicted wound.

Again, I have no doubt there are good raiders out there, and great raid leaders.
I've recruited them, I've met them, I've grouped with them in plain PuGs.

This thread is about a guild that, imho, is good enough (to the last of my knowledge) that they shouldn't have to PUG raid.
Because we've all heard/experienced PuG raids that have been, "less than spectacular" to say the least.

If you joined a guild of 4 people or 9 people or whatever. It's your own self inflicted wound. It's great you have a close circle of friends or that you have a tight bond. It's great you have that. But everything in life and in game comes with tradeoffs.

If you want to raid and you join a small guild. Your playing poker with less than a full deck. And if (and I do mean "if") you get burned on a PuG raid. That's the downside. I hope it doesn't happen to you. I hope it doesn't happen to anyone. But I've played MMO's for a long time and human nature can be a witch.

Good luck with your PuG raiding.
I don't do it. Not with with the bindable loot. (Tempest Spine is of course the exception)

[Altarboy]

Again, what wound do you speak of? Am I self inflicting myself (by raiding in guild) with the wound of constant success? or with the wound of "no loot problems"? Or maybe it's the self inflicted wound of starting on time and finishing quickly? Or the horrid wound of group cooperation and capability? Or maybe it's the self inflicted wound of having scheduled raids so I can log in complete it and spend time with my family?

I'm struggling here to understand your point and see how my thinking / personal choice is a self inflicted wound.

Again, I have no doubt there are good raiders out there, and great raid leaders.
I've recruited them, I've met them, I've grouped with them in plain PuGs.

This thread is about a guild that, imho, is good enough (to the last of my knowledge) that they shouldn't have to PUG raid.
Because we've all heard/experienced PuG raids that have been, "less than spectacular" to say the least.

If you joined a guild of 4 people or 9 people or whatever. It's your own self inflicted wound. It's great you have a close circle of friends or that you have a tight bond. It's great you have that. But everything in life and in game comes with tradeoffs.

If you want to raid and you join a small guild. Your playing poker with less than a full deck. And if (and I do mean "if") you get burned on a PuG raid. That's the downside. I hope it doesn't happen to you. I hope it doesn't happen to anyone. But I've played MMO's for a long time and human nature can be a witch.

Jeeeeez calm down yer spraying pus all over the place!...:okepoke::

sorry bored an trollin

[maddmatt70]

[QUOTE=Riot;1445825]I'll preface this by saying my tone is not meant to sound "mean".


(calm voice)
Learn what exactly? How to take forever to form up? How to deal with failure? How to deal with the one guy who doesn't listen?
Seriously, what will I learn from PuG raiding, that I won't learn either from guild raiding or PuG grouping?
If you can show me one positive thing that cannot be learned elsewhere or that I have not already learned I'll change my position.

[quote]


Fair enough it is your choice of course.

I have not failed a raid (pugs, in guild, etc.) in I don't know how long with the exception of course being the abbot. It does not take too long to finish any raids especially since generally the optimum number of people needed for most raids is 3.

Learning can be different styles or ways of completing a raid or just adventuring in general - I know that you pug some in non raids so you get some exposure to this..

If you want to raid and you join a small guild. Your playing poker with less than a full deck. And if (and I do mean "if") you get burned on a PuG raid. That's the downside. I hope it doesn't happen to you. I hope it doesn't happen to anyone. But I've played MMO's for a long time and human nature can be a witch.

Bah now that is ignorance if you are referring to succesfully completing a raid. The only exception to this is of course the abbot raid. Form a guild alliance or you may have to expand your guild to 12+ for that one I will not deny.

If you are referring to raid loot I am of the school of if the barbarian wants his +3 charisma tome he can have it...

[Riot]

Bah now that is ignorance if you are referring to succesfully completing a raid. The only exception to this is of course the abbot raid. Form a guild alliance or you may have to expand your guild to 12+ for that one I will not deny.

If you are referring to raid loot I am of the school of if the barbarian wants his +3 charisma tome he can have it...

It's not ignorance. VoN and Titan both took quite a while before the "less than optimal numbers" were beating them.
Reaver is just plain stupid easy, barely qualifies as a raid in my book. (only the bindable loot makes it so)
And DQ well, it's just borked beyond comprehension.

if you come from a small guild, you have to make a choice.

a) Form some sort of alliance. (which can either be a Large guild mentality with factions) or (PuG explosion waiting to happen)
b) PuG it. (your virtual box of chocolates)
c) Wait until the raid is capable of being solved with lesser numbers. (which can take a while, or be very quick).

None of those steps needs to be taken in a guild like the one I am in.

[ateknogod]

why do people keep trying to apply their rules for what they think should be done with smething i get in a chest? if i pulled +5 mith full plate on my wizard, i wouldnt put that up for a roll? so why is it that something that binds is SO much different? on my given example, i would sell/trade the armor, so why is it so much of a taboo to do the same with raid loot? my guild was represented at the meeting mentioned in this thread, and the 'rules' were explained guildwide. so what did i do? i ignored them. when a warded chest is opened, every player makes a roll to see what they get in that chest, so whatever is in the chest is THEIRS. they can loot it, trade it, sell it, give it away, or leave it there. and nobody should care because that item dropped for that player. it is THEIRS. if i am in a pug and the party leader wants me to do something his way, i will. but NOBODY will tell me what to do with something that drops in a chest for me. is that selfish? probably. however, i pay my $15/month to play, so it is my right to be selfish in that manner. this may get flamed, and if so, oh well. i am simply stating what i know a lot of people feel, even though they wont admit it because of the rules of their specific guild. need before greed is dead. turbine got rid of it for us. now everyone gets something from the raid chest, so ease up on what others do with their loot.

[Mithran]

The reason I posted this thread is because I wanted people's feedback on it. You're free to ignore the rules, as you're free to ignore all other rules, not just in this game, but outside it as well, for that matter. The run that I detailed was a pug, and I was curious to know what other people thought about the willingness of a member of my guild to follow the rules to their personal detriment. You're clear with your post: You think we're being foolish to follow what had been our collective policy.

The real question in my mind is if you think we should follow the rules when my paladin pulls a +3 Intelligence tome and you're in the raid on your wizard. If it's a raid in your guild, everyone but you could rightly expect that I would follow the rules that had been laid out. If we were in a pug, you can now expect that I would not put it up for a roll, myself.

[Staedtler]

I'm still really interested to know where you got the notion that there were any PUG rules in the first place.

[ateknogod]

The reason I posted this thread is because I wanted people's feedback on it. You're free to ignore the rules, as you're free to ignore all other rules, not just in this game, but outside it as well, for that matter. The run that I detailed was a pug, and I was curious to know what other people thought about the willingness of a member of my guild to follow the rules to their personal detriment. You're clear with your post: You think we're being foolish to follow what had been our collective policy.

The real question in my mind is if you think we should follow the rules when my paladin pulls a +3 Intelligence tome and you're in the raid on your wizard. If it's a raid in your guild, everyone but you could rightly expect that I would follow the rules that had been laid out. If we were in a pug, you can now expect that I would not put it up for a roll, myself.

i cant see why anyone would put any +3 tome up for a roll (unless they had already used that stat). that is the only reason most people i know even run reaver anymore.

but to answer your question, no, i wouldnt expect to get your loot. i would be happy that i was present when someone got a +3 tome. and if you had already used a tome of the stat that dropped, i would pretty much offer everything i had (short of my soul) to you for the tome.

[Mithran]

I'm still really interested to know where you got the notion that there were any PUG rules in the first place.

The rules were for members of my guild and for the other guilds who were represented in the GM group.

[Svetelana]

Several members of my guild were in a Reaver pug, and for one of them, a +3 to Strength Tome dropped. This member was immediately offered the very lucrative trade of a Bloodstone and a +6 to Charisma ring for the Tome. In strict adherence to the raid protocols we had been instructed to follow, this member of KoI ignored the offer of a trade, and put the Tome up for a general roll. Three or four raid members rolled on the item.

The raid member who won the roll on the item had the loot transferred to them by my guildie, but rather than triple-clicking it, he/she then transferred the item to the individual who had offered the items to my guildie in trade.

Please note that I am not attempting to smear any players, here. I have specifically named no player characters, and I was not personally in the raid. My feeling is simply that members of my guild are following rather strict raid loot rules that members of other guilds are not similarly following.

What are your feelings about this incident?

My feelings are.....It doesn't seem to working out too well! lol

With 12 people squawking away, do you really think a non KOI cares what your guild does? Kudos to the dude that got the ring and the bloodstone

[Inkblack]

I'm not sure that the guidelines proposed can truly be followed. Once ownership of an item is transferred to a player, there is simply no enforcement mechanism to prevent them from doing whatever they want with it. As you said, it sounds like KoI is following strict guidelines that others are not.

Next time I would either limit the roll to those involved in generating the guidelines, or take the trade if none are available. At least then you could file a complaint with the player's guild leader if a problem occurs.

Ink

[Staedtler]

The rules were for members of my guild and for the other guilds who were represented in the GM group.

My feeling is simply that members of my guild are following rather strict raid loot rules that members of other guilds are not similarly following.

If the player from the original incident is not in one of the represented guilds I don't see why you should complain.

[Mithran]

I didn't see a complaint, but feel free to point it out.