General Question about Spell Saves

[GrayOldDruid]

What are the spell saves based off of?

The Ray spells - my Charisma is high, but it doesn't seem like my Ray spells have decent saves (19 at lvl 7 ). What is going on? Do I need a higher Dex to get better DC on my Ray spells?? Well, anything with a Reflex Save....

[Borror0]

What rays? Rays in DDO got no touch attack to land if that is your question...

[Mad_Bombardier]

Since he's talking Ray and asking about reflex saves, I have to assume he mean's Niac's Cold Ray. Niac's is different in that it's the only ray spell that offers a save (probably just to keep it from being overpowered as a 1st level spell). And the problem you are having is that at low levels, you are using it against high Reflex targets such as Kobolds, Hobgoblin Infiltrators, Bugbear Rogues, etc.

There are 4 ways to increase your spell DCs; Casting stat, spell level (Heighten metamagic), Spell Focus feats, Spell Focus items. Try holding a Conjuration Focus item while casting Niac's. It's only +1 spell DC, but helps a good bit.

[Shade]

DDO ray spells are inherently dodgable via just moving your character - that is your save.

As such they have no actual reflex save, they just always hit as long as there aimed correctly. Which makes them very potent. Scorching ray is a very popular spell to use on bosses due to its no save.

Im guessing your looking at the "save dc" in the mouse over popup - just ignore it for ray spells, shouldn't display one.

Niacs cold ray (the only lvl1 ray) is an exception as it does have a save to completely negate it, as its just a special DDO creation that doesn't exist in PnP. Just added so cold spells have a better spread. (was lvl4,5,8, now lvl1,4,5,8)

[GrayOldDruid]

What rays? Rays in DDO got no touch attack to land if that is your question...

What is the SAVE on the spells based on and how do I get my DC (difficulty class, ie, to Save vs target number) higher on Scorching Ray, Niac's Cold Ray and anything with a Reflex Save.

It just seems I should have higher saves on my spells....

[Perceval418]

What is the SAVE on the spells based on and how do I get my DC (difficulty class, ie, to Save vs target number) higher on Scorching Ray, Niac's Cold Ray and anything with a Reflex Save.

It just seems I should have higher saves on my spells....

Scorching Ray has no save. Some mobs are immune, others are resistant to fire, but besides that Scorching Ray always lands and always does damage. The only exception is if the mob moves out of the way of the ray, then the ray obviously goes past the mob and doesnt do damage.

The Heighten Spell feat will help increase the DC of all spells 6 and lower. Disintigrate and Niacs Cold ray both have saves, the first a fortitude save, the latter a reflex save. School items such a Evocation Scepter or pair of Bracers increases the DC on that spell by +4. The reaver napkin gives you +1 DC to all your spells. You can also take upto two feats to increase the DC in any one school of magic by +1 each time.

But at level 14, to be honest, Niacs cold ray is mostly useless and mobs saves against it so good your better off dropping it eventually for something else, especially with Polar Ray coming in mod 6.

Saves are based on the spell level, your spell school enhancements/feats, and your charisma mod vs. thier save in question (reflex) and a roll of a d20. (i think thats right)>

[chemonz]

Save DC for all spells = 10 + Spell level + ability bonus (Int for wizards, Cha for Sorcs) + any spell focus feats or items for the school of spell you are casting.

So a lvl 14 Sorc casting charm monster with a cha of 34 (+12 bonus) would have a dc of 10+4+12 = 26, if he is holding an enchantment focus item his DC would be 27.

Heighten spell is a metmagic feat that, when active, increases the spell level of any spell to the highest spell level the character can cast. So it works on all but the highest level spells. So the same spell cast by the same sorc would be dc = 10+7+12 = 29, so in this case it would raise dc by 3.

I always find an example helps to explain the somewhat complicated way spell dc calculation works. Scorching ray is nice because there is no save for 1/2 damage like there is for fireball or cone of cold, you just need to hit the target which usually isn't hard unless the target is moving around quite a bit.

[Yajerman01]

Save DC for all spells = 10 + Spell level + ability bonus (Int for wizards, Cha for Sorcs) + any spell focus feats or items for the school of spell you are casting.

So a lvl 14 Sorc casting charm monster with a cha of 34 (+12 bonus) would have a dc of 10+4+12 = 26, if he is holding an enchantment focus item his DC would be 27.

Heighten spell is a metmagic feat that, when active, increases the spell level of any spell to the highest spell level the character can cast. So it works on all but the highest level spells. So the same spell cast by the same sorc would be dc = 10+7+12 = 29, so in this case it would raise dc by 3.

I always find an example helps to explain the somewhat complicated way spell dc calculation works. Scorching ray is nice because there is no save for 1/2 damage like there is for fireball or cone of cold, you just need to hit the target which usually isn't hard unless the target is moving around quite a bit.

I was always told something different but i always come back to the above mentioned calculater. As such, i need for clarification purposes the following: My sorc is level 9 = he has taken both spell penetration and greater pen, and has taken Illusion focus feat; on enhancements he has taken Spell Pen I & Pen II; his charisma is currently 28 +9 to mod. He wears an illusion bracer +1 to dc and carries in his offhand a spell pen IV sceptor which gives a +2 to DC.

Does that all stack and if so does that mean my toons calculation is +4 (Spell pen and GSP) +1 (Illusion Focus) +2 (Enhancement Spell Pen I & II) +9 (CHA mod) +1 (Bracer) +2 (Sceptor) +4 (level of spell) which = 10+23 = 33 for using my PK spell? --------------(10+4+1+2+9+1+2+4=33)

Just curious to know. I think the sceptor doesnt stack, or the brcaers - either or - just would like to know if I am calculating this correctly.

[Darth_Sizzle]

I was always told something different but i always come back to the above mentioned calculater. As such, i need for clarification purposes the following: My sorc is level 9 = he has taken both spell penetration and greater pen, and has taken Illusion focus feat; on enhancements he has taken Spell Pen I & Pen II; his charisma is currently 28 +9 to mod. He wears an illusion bracer +1 to dc and carries in his offhand a spell pen IV sceptor which gives a +2 to DC.

Does that all stack and if so does that mean my toons calculation is +4 (Spell pen and GSP) +1 (Illusion Focus) +2 (Enhancement Spell Pen I & II) +9 (CHA mod) +1 (Bracer) +2 (Sceptor) +4 (level of spell) which = 10+23 = 33 for using my PK spell? --------------(10+4+1+2+9+1+2+4=33)

Just curious to know. I think the sceptor doesnt stack, or the brcaers - either or - just would like to know if I am calculating this correctly.

Spell penetration doesn't add to your spell dc, it helps you overcome spell resistance (kinda like AC against spells).

[Yajerman01]

i feel so new - well i am in a sorc aspect - thanks for the info.

[Kargon]

Does that all stack and if so does that mean my toons calculation is +4 (Spell pen and GSP) +1 (Illusion Focus) +2 (Enhancement Spell Pen I & II) +9 (CHA mod) +1 (Bracer) +2 (Sceptor) +4 (level of spell) which = 10+23 = 33 for using my PK spell? --------------(10+4+1+2+9+1+2+4=33)

Should be +1 (Illusion Focus) + 9 (Cha Mod) +2 (sceptor) +4 (level of spell) + 10 (base) = 26 from what kargon can tell.

the spell pen stuff all adds to your chance to overcome spell resistamance, as noted above. only certain enemamies have spell resistamance, such as drow and reavers. Not all spells are even affected by spell resistamance (should say in each spell descriptimion), for instance, most if not all damage spells ignore all spell resistamance. mostly spell resistamance gives enemies chances to resist crowd control or instakill spells (i.e. PK). Spell resistance is a seperate roll before the enemy even has to make their save attempt roll, if they resist the spell the spell have no effect at all (even if the spell normamally has an effect even if they save). If the spell are resisted (rather than saved against) will see a blue sphere appear around the enemy for a brief momament, instead of the hexagamonamal symbol over their head.

[transtemporal]

Should be +1 (Illusion Focus) + 9 (Cha Mod) +2 (sceptor) +4 (level of spell) + 10 (base) = 26 from what kargon can tell.

If I may Kargon, the OP stated the sceptor was a spell pen IV so it shouldn't be in there.

• DC is: 10 (base) +1 (Illusion Focus) +1 (Illusion Bracer) + 9 (Cha Mod) +4 (level of spell) = 25
• Spell penetration is: +7 (caster level) +2 (Spell Pen feat) +2 (Greater Spell Pen feat) +1 (Imp Spell Pen I) +1 (Imp Spell Pen II) +2 (Spell Pen IV Sceptor, level 4 and below spells only) = d20 +15 (spell levels 4 and below) or d20 + 13 (spell levels 5 and above)

OP: your investment in spell penetration isn't necessarily a bad choice because it sounds like you're going to specialise in instakill and these spells are always subject to spell resistance. If you are going down the instakill path, I would think about picking up the school focus: necromancy feat (for when you get FoD at which point, I would drop school focus: illusion and pick up heighten).

You've maybe over-committed to spell pen and probably too early, but at least you can be sure your spells will get past SR consistently, even on endgame hard and elite mobs! In fact, I think the only way you could get your spell pen higher is with a greater spell pen item!

As a thought, if you wanted to diversify and capitalise on your spell pen investment you could also get the school focus: enchantment feat and a school focus: ench item and grab some CC spells?